Galanoth7395
Smash Apprentice
okay, ty sir bedevere
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The Official SBR Brawl Tier List v1.0
- Thread starter M3D
- Start date
- Status
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
What exactly is the writers contest?
Sir Bedevere
Smash Lord
I'm not the person to ask lol.
To the best of my knowledge, the writer's contest is some monthly/bi-monthly contest where people write an essay on a particular subject, and the person with the one the judges find to be the best is made a writer.Don't take my word for it though. I'd ask an actual Writer (if you can find one) or simply search the forums and you'll probably find your answer.
Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
I have a long way to go.
LinIsKorean
Smash Journeyman
lol, same here...
Anyways, hopefully I can be one of those who bring Captain Falcon some glory, as I started maining him. I enjoy playing Bowser as well, who seems to have improved greatly from his Melee days. ^_^
Anyways, hopefully I can be one of those who bring Captain Falcon some glory, as I started maining him. I enjoy playing Bowser as well, who seems to have improved greatly from his Melee days. ^_^
... ignore
Lemon Drop
Smash Lord
Captain Falcon will probably raise up a few slots, I mean compare Ganondorf's tourney results to Captain Falcon's. I know it isn't all based on tourney results but the Falcon will rise, with a knee to the face.
BrawLBlazer
Smash Journeyman
Falcon might rise a bit, but will probably still be at the bottom of the low tiers.
Snowstalker
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2008
- Messages
- 813
UNSTOPPABLE:
Meta Knight
TOP:
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch
Snake
Falco
Marth
R.O.B
Wario
HIGH:
Lucario
Olimar
Diddy Kong
Kirby
Ice Climbers
Donkey Kong
Pikachu
Wolf
Toon Link
MIDDLE:
Pit
Peach
Luigi
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Ness
Bowser
Fox
Sheik
Yoshi
LOW:
Lucas
Pokemon Trainer
Mario
Ike
Samus
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Link
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
Meta Knight
TOP:
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch
Snake
Falco
Marth
R.O.B
Wario
HIGH:
Lucario
Olimar
Diddy Kong
Kirby
Ice Climbers
Donkey Kong
Pikachu
Wolf
Toon Link
MIDDLE:
Pit
Peach
Luigi
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Ness
Bowser
Fox
Sheik
Yoshi
LOW:
Lucas
Pokemon Trainer
Mario
Ike
Samus
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Link
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
I've got a question... what's keeping Lucario from breaking into top tier..?
Bowser King
Have It Your Way
@kr3wman Same here, and he definitely wont be raising a few slots. If he was lucky he'd raise 1. Even then chars like Ganon just have so much more advanced moves and techs (the new super jump). Plus, Ganon's dair and choke are just some reasons he deserves higher then CF.
@snowstalker
stop posting that tier list 100 times >_>
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Bowser King
@snowstalker
stop posting that tier list 100 times >_>
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Bowser King
Galanoth7395
Smash Apprentice
why's falco top tier? he seems just as good as fox. i mean sure he has a chain grab...
Timbers
check me out
I think people look at him and see that he's really a character that can't be as dependable as others. He does lack a punish game and can make a mistake of his own and possibly lose an entire auraboost, and leaves a weak Lucario to try and kill the opponent.
I'm sure that's what sets most people off from him, and it isn't until you start playing as or against him that he's not nearly as fragile as first believed.
Still, he's a rather linear character, and I think there's enough characters in this game that can take advantage of that. He has a subpar approach game and a subpar camp game, so anyone that can deal with those well will likely do well in general. Also having some difficult matchups in the top/high tier (DDD, GaW, Marth) keep him where he is right now, and I think that's fine.
Luc might pass Wario solely due to grab releases, and I don't see ROB clutching his current spot for much longer, so Luc may have a surprise entrance into 7th. The only character that I see having enough potential to surpass him is Diddy. His overall spot is pretty settled I think.
Why would ROB drop? I seriously doubt that.
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
I 2nd That
Shut Up! Rob sucks! jk. All he does is break the 3 laws.
It's friendly competition.Shut Up! Rob sucks! jk. All he does is break the 3 laws.
And Beside, it's only sucking them into oblivion with time bombs.
Boo list! Worse than this one! (no sarcasm)
agree with you
Greenstreet
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2008
- Messages
- 2,965
Can't be toooooooo long. Give it a couple of months.
Vorguen
Smash Champion
I thought Ice Climbers would be higher, with their kill-you-even-at-0%-chain-grab.
Why'd they go so low?
Why'd they go so low?
Their grab range is horrible. If you know what your doing and you go in with the right mentality and patience.....they're fairly easy.
gantrain05
Smash Master
well im glad your the ONLY one happy about that.......oh yeah, awesome ganon is still bottom tier.....he's still the king of evil.
YamiJorie
Smash Cadet
Why is Sonic so low? He is really good at putting the pressure on, his only problem is lack of killing power, but MK has that too.
Umby
Smash Master
Oof. You're comparing Sonic to MK in one aspect of the game, but forgetting all the advantages MK has compared to Sonic, such as a disjointed hitbox, fast, lagless aerials, a two spammable specials (if you count Shuttle Loop -> Glide Attack spam and consider it spammable), and 5 mid-air jumps makes him much better than Sonic at gimping (though Sonic is pretty good at it too). Overall he just has better tools to work with and better overall matchups than Sonic.
But as to why Sonic sucks in particular, it's more than just the lack of killing power, it's about the lack of killing options as well. Sonic's main killing tools are fsmash and bair. Fsmash isn't exactly one of the faster smashes, and not only will you have to setup for a bair to kill, but it's most likely going to be somewhat stale at some point of the match, being the awesome move that it is. After that, you have dsmash, which is also not that fast, and uair, which normally requires a Spring to set up for a kill, as your more reliable kill moves on stage.
People like to count Sonic's lack of priority as an issue, so you can if you want to. I don't.
Sonic has to approach everybody. Considering that too many people have moves with lingering hitboxes/multiple hits that are pretty common to abuse (also projectiles, but Sonic has numerous ways of not getting bogged down from spam) ground approaches can be particularly tough depending on the matchup. That just leaves the air for approaches. Sonic's air game is a bit lacking for that purpose. His primary means are SH Fair and ASC and those aren't particularly as effective as other aerial approaches.
Basically, Sonic is outclassed by a lot of characters in areas that are required to win in Brawl. He doesn't have a projectile, so he can't really camp, he has low killing power and a lack of consistently effective kill moves, so he racks up damage in all the time he takes in not KOing his opponent, and the hitboxes of most of his moves don't stay out long and most aren't really that abusable. His most abused moves are Spin Dash and Spin Charge, and without the opponent effectively positioning himself or playing mindgames, those are easily dodged, and an opponent can probably counter your follow up with their respective OOS games.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
Yeah, Sonic's lack of priority isn't really an issue because he is supposed to attack only when he is able to get a sure hit. He's fast enough to play an evasive game so he's not gonna make opportunities to be outprioritized anyway. Not like a lot of characters can counter his spin dashes anyway lol. There are ways to stop them but once again, Sonic is not gonna spindash in when he knows he can't connect or when he can be countered.
ylbassist16
Smash Rookie
Wow, I didn't realize the two character's I main were so far apart. Yoshi then Falco lol.
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
This. Seriously their CG are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo overated.
Ness footstool combo's are broken though. Easily top tier above MK.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1N0D0SdIr4&feature=related
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Sarcasm, I was being sarcastic.
Flamingo777
Smash Apprentice
Are you kidding? Have you ever played a MK? And BTW. Sonic can't gimp or use a Whorenado like MK can.
Flamingo777
Smash Apprentice
haha. Ness footstool combos... what a waste of time and effort. Take a gander at the prescision and effectiveness of Sheiks.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=g3je-k53-DU&feature=related
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Ehh... They truly are deadly.
Napilopez
Smash Lord
Overall a good description, but I think there are some points I'd like to argue. Sonic is by no means MK, but I still don't think he deserves that placement. I don't really care about his placement though, I just want some stuff set straight.
Approaching: Sonic has too approach everyone, yes. But is that really ever an issue? Only character I find truly gives Sonic trouble approachng is Olimar. Otherwse approaching with Sonic is rarely a problem, like approaching with MK. Yea I know MK is uber awesome and whatnot, but he still approaches most of the time as well. They approach in different ways and different intentions(MK goes directly into attack mode, lol), but nevertheless neither char has particular trouble approaching in most cases. Ground approaches can also be one of the safest ways to approach with Sonic imo, but thats just me. Sonic's approach game is safe in that almost none of his approaches commit him to being damaged. Of course you will be hit or grabbed out of them now and then, but the same can be said about any other char.
I would also like to counter the point about his most abused moves being Spin Dash and Charge, as that is really something from like, way back in the day. Nowadays I wouldnt say at all these are his most abused moves. The general playstyle trend today would probably indicate that grabs, whether from running shields, or SideB/ASC cancels, are his most abused moves. But even that I wouldn't exactly call "abused". Sonics game relies much more heavily on making the right choice of move than other characters. By this I mean that there are often too many trade-offs in using a move, so you have to choose wisely. For example, Bair is disjointed and powerful, and has like no landing lag, yet it has noticable startup lag. Fair on the other hand is very quick and does a good amount of damage, yet it has tons of end lag and is not as disjointed.
I find that one of Sonic's main issues is that he needs to make these choices. He doesn't have many moves that "just work" in almost every applicable situation, like for example MKs and Marth's Fairs. However, this is also the reason why I believe Sonic becomes exponentially better at top level play because this move commitment issue is not as serious as a problem when one is skilled enough to assess one's move choices quickly and effectively.
Sonic is by nature a punishment character. He can indeed create openings quite well, but these openings are not created by the conventional means of having an attack that just disrupts your opponents. Rather they are born from the inherent mindgames that are a result of Sonics ATs. And the thing is, most characters that can create an opening attack while doing so. They do damage as they creat an opening in the opponents defenses(MKs nado and Fair for example). Sonic on the other hand, has to first create an opening, and then attack. His lack of variety in killing options further exacerbate this problem.
Because Sonic is such a punishment character, I believe it by nature compels him to be placed in the mid tier. He can capitalize better than almost anyone on an opponent's mistake or leftover opening, yet he has trouble creating these openings. An opponent playing a perfectly patient game, with a little risk-little reward playstyle, will usually perform better against Sonikku than one who has a high risk-high reward playstle. This is because Sonic can capitalize and punish those risks taken. But if the opponent choses to leave little oppenings, even if at the cost of small rewards, it becomes more difficult for Sonic to play effectively. Again, he can create openings if an opponent chooses to play this well, but it is simply not as aeffective as having attacks that do so naturally.
And, at the risk of being trite, there is no better evidence for Sonic deserving a better ranking than Sonic's consistent performance in tournaments. Few good Sonic mains as there may be, Sonic still has averaged somewhere in the "mid tier range" of tournament rankings, although I know rankings aren't all that are involved in the tier list.
I personally am at peace with his current tier ranking, and I understand the SBR not taking tournaments into highest account when making the tier list. I think since the list was released so early in the Metaknightgame, assessing chracter potential and such was more important than oturnament rankings, because the metagame was too young for the tourney results of the time to be as valid as they could be. I would gander that as brawl ages, tournament rankings will come more and more into play in the tier list as the development of charactersw will have been more drawn out, and tournament rankings become better represntations of how "good" a char is.
Rawr.
Umby
Smash Master
We should make this a weekly thing between us - we do it so often!
Sonic definitely has problems approaching Peach and Wario as well. Everyone else just gives him projectile issues, but it only takes a second to get around that. I'm not really saying that Sonic approaching is truly an issue to his game, but the fact that he has to approach in the fashion that he does is one of the factors that set him below the bar. When you look at it, a lot of the characters above Sonic can use projectiles to camp or spam a little to cover their own approach. They use it as a defensive tactic to bait disadvantegous movements from their opponents. In the process they do damage and can potentially slow down the opponent. All Sonic can do to the same effect is attempt to fake them out - not as consistently reliable as most projectiles. That's realy what I was trying to get at in my post.
Point taken.
Actually, therein lies the problem. The reason people make such move commitment in higher level play with some of the better characters is because those moves obviously work effeciently with a minimal amount of practice. I mean, G&W's dsmash? It's rediculous. So while most higher tiered characters are abusing these types of moves, Sonic, on the other hand requires more precision in landing his moves. Now, assuming the user is able to land them often, that would partially indicate how skilled a Sonic user is. But Sonic himself is struggling to fight through giant lingering hit boxes and lagless, abusable, disjointed attacks. So we can say a player's skill can increase exponentially through higher level play, but Sonic is still pretty garbage.
Not sure if you're rebutting against me or working with me to prove my point to the previous user that asked about Sonic, but this is correct.
Well first, I would disagree with your first point in this statement. If Sonic deserves mid
tier for being a punishment character, then Squirtle himself would push Pokemon Trainer up to mid tier for similarly being a punishment character with better aerial game (PT users feel free to correct me on this, if you wish). Samus would probably have to be pushed up too just because she can spam/camp, which is a huge part of Brawl, which brings me to my next counterpoint.
Sonic can be patient and more effective, yes. Land camping is good bait. But if a Sonic user realizes that he can be patient, then a Snake or R.O.B. user realizes this as well. So at this point, Sonic is either forced to approach or forced to Pshield every projectile thrown at him. That's because of the obvious fact that projectile camping is more effective than land camping.
If anything it warrants him being pushed a few spots up, but even then he'd still be in the low tier.
After the SBR's Character Discussion on Sonic, I'd be amazed if the SBR even cared to pay attention to Sonic results when forming the next version of the tier list. (Yes, I did look at it. I just didn't post)
YamiJorie
Smash Cadet
I think Sonic can actually create openings quite well with his dash attack. It goes on for pretty long, it's very fast and it leaves the opponent a bit shaken after the attack. I'm not saying that a Sonic player should just spam that move, but it is pretty good as a setup for his next attack, even his Fsmash.
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