Umby
Smash Master
You'd be surprised how well dash attack spam works on some characters though. Though it definitely doesn't setup for fsmash. Maybe utilt/ftilt, but unless the opponent is ********, definitely not fsmash.
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The Official SBR Brawl Tier List v1.0
- Thread starter M3D
- Start date
- Status
Sonic's dash attack doesn't create openings as much as it punishes them (alot quicker than his other moves)
By the way, I have a pretty awesome amount of MK frame data (hotgarbage's) frame data, hiding somewhere in one of my threads.
It even has landing lag and autocancel times <3
apparently, MK's aerials have like a range of 12-15 frames of landing lag, and their aerial commitment time is usually somewhere around 30-40 frames (yes, I was right >_>) However, usually around frame 20, his aerials 'auto cancel', so when he does SH FF aerials, he usually gets to that autocancel point first.
But when he's in the air, there's a very noticeable amount of dead time in his attacks not named U-air o_o;
By the way, I have a pretty awesome amount of MK frame data (hotgarbage's) frame data, hiding somewhere in one of my threads.
It even has landing lag and autocancel times <3
apparently, MK's aerials have like a range of 12-15 frames of landing lag, and their aerial commitment time is usually somewhere around 30-40 frames (yes, I was right >_>) However, usually around frame 20, his aerials 'auto cancel', so when he does SH FF aerials, he usually gets to that autocancel point first.
But when he's in the air, there's a very noticeable amount of dead time in his attacks not named U-air o_o;
Umby
Smash Master
Tenki, you can take that rediculous avatar down, now.
I would but I don't have a replacement one that isn't Sonic-related ;o
On a funny note, according to hotgarbage's frame data, U-air finishes on frame 13 (or at least, you can jump/whatever by then)
But it auto cancels on frame 21.
otherwise he suffers a 12 frame landing lag.
>_>
<_<
...
MK can L-cancel. LOL.
On a funny note, according to hotgarbage's frame data, U-air finishes on frame 13 (or at least, you can jump/whatever by then)
But it auto cancels on frame 21.
otherwise he suffers a 12 frame landing lag.
>_>
<_<
...
MK can L-cancel. LOL.
Galanoth7395
Smash Apprentice
This is what Sonic thinks about this tier list:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KuquOdbqlg
anyways, noone answered my question about falco's placement
P.S. Does Ken have a Smashboards account?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KuquOdbqlg
anyways, noone answered my question about falco's placement
P.S. Does Ken have a Smashboards account?
Stealth Raptor
Smash Legend
yes it is sephirothken
Galanoth7395
Smash Apprentice
Sweet! And yet my Falco question still goes unanswered...
Umby
Smash Master
Amazing projectile (Better than Fox's)
Shine.
Chain Grab can actually zero-to-death some characters. (Unlike Fox)
Dair can Meteor (Unlike Fox's)
Phantasm can Meteor and is shit fast (faster than Fox's)
Bair comes out faster than Fox's
Basically, if you are looking at a standpoint where you compare Fox to Falco, Falco is high tier because for one, a combination of his lasers and shine can stop/hinder approaches, and his laser alone provides him with a few more approach options than Fox. If you asked me, it's really mostly the laser that gives him a pure advantage over Fox in terms of placement.
gantrain05
Smash Master
meh, i just let falco laser me at the start of matches until like 40 percent, then im safe from the chaingrab, but really i honestly think they should be alot closer to each other on the tier list than they are, sure, falco has annoying lasers and a chaingrab, but fox's combos work like 1000x better Dair > Utilt spam > Fair/Nair/Usmash/Dair and start over etc, falco really doesn't have any "combos" that i can really think of.
Cook
Smash Master
I'm pretty sure Olimar can meteor cancel with up-b and beat Falco to the ledge if he does the chain-grab to spike.
Napilopez
Smash Lord
Haha sure XD
Ahh, understood. But more stuff XD: I personally don't think he has any trouble approaching Wario and Peach, and I've played plenty. I don't see what the problem would be with wario, his bite is the biggest issue, which homing attack can punish oh so easily. Or just, walk up and up-angle fsmash. Peach is slightly more problematic because of her turnip and dair, but turnip is easy enough to powershield(plus im sure you can cover like half of fd or more in the time it takes her to pull it out and throw it), and there are ways with dealing with dair.
Although it would clearly be better if Sonic didn't have to approach, I think he can approach much better than several non-projectiles characters above him.
Hmm, this may be true, but I have my own opinions about the impact of skill level in matchup discussions and whatnot. Yet again, I will bring up a point I often do often do of extreme contrast. At the most basic levels of play, which I would describe as mostly C-stick spam, Ike is clearly one of the best characters. Lets say you just introducing 2 people into smash, and teach them the very basics only at first. One player is Wario, the other is Ike. At this level of play, I think you would agree that Ike is the better character overall. Why? He has range, power, and priority. The Wario player won't know how to do stuff like weave aerials and which attacks are quicker and whatnot. So although this is obviously much more exagerated than the situation with Sonic, if Sonic knows the right moves to use, the character itself does become better, along with the player. At least Sonic has at least one move to answer for almost every situation: ftilt for range, dtilt racking damage, Uair to beat out anything above him, Fair when he needs a quick aerial, bair when he needs knockback, to give some examples. I find some other characters are more limited in this area, they might not have a good enough option for certain situations. Sonic is still limited though.
But my original point still stands, and we agree on that: Sonic does have to commit alot in his moveset. Choices are extremely important, and this keeps him from being top.
This was more of a general statement about my own opinions about Sonic, one that I know is reflected by many of the better Sonic mains as well, so yes, I was supporting that Sonic doesn't deserve to be high, but also that he doesn't deserve to be as low.
Welll, the thing is I think its about the quality of the punishment, and how often you are able to respond. I still don't think Sonic mains abuse Sonic's running speed to its deserved potential at this point in the metagame. Like, yea Sonic loses out against MK, but Sonic is also one of the few characters that actually has the speed to punish the lag on MKs aerials. Basically, Sonic can take advantage of the tiniest windows for punishment, and across larger distances better than probably anyone else. Sonics have already learned2AT, are beginning to Lrn2Player, now I think they gotta focus more on Lrn2run. I see so much potential in dashdance pivots from foxtrots and stuff.
Well for one thing, there are after all other characters without projectiles or reflectors who manage great. Furthermore, oftentimes the opponent can only get out a couple of projectiles before Sonic is in his/her face anyways. And i would argue projectile camping being more effective than land camping against Sonic specifically. He has ways around virtually everything with him taking considerably less damage than other non projectiled chars would probably do.
Hmm perhaps. But if Sonic managed rank 18 for the next 5 years, then I think it would warrant him more than low tier. Of course things aren't so static, and we have no clue how things will progress tournament-wise from now on, but as time progresses I find tourney's should have more weight towards character rankings, because with the passage of time, more and more options have been exhausted, more knowledge exists, so we begin to reach a slowdown in the development of the metagame. however, obviously tier lists are always shifting and whatnot, and even after all this time with melee, the metagame still progresses, and gameplay trends continue to change.
Haha, glad to see that even someone who doesn't post on the boards anymore sees some of the... stuff that was mentioned in that thread, lulz.
So yea, I think Sonic still needs to have his speed exploted. And this is not necesarily through ATs or watevs, just plain old people reacting more quickly, and having better timing and control. I find lots of the damage Sonic takes on in battle nowadays are actually from missed punishment opportunities, people being a couple of frames off. I mean, how many times don't you see a Sonic whiff a dashgrab and then get smashed for it? Some more accuracy would lead to much better play for Sonic IMO. Yea, I know this is true for any character, but I believe its on a more critical scale with Sonic. Honsestly, I think taking advantage of Sonic's speed is a more technical aspect of Sonics gameplay than any of his fancy smancy ATs. Except for foxtrot tricks and dashdances.
I also think Sonic has the advantage of not being truly destroyed by any character. Ehh Sonic mains will argue about this back and forth, like you think D3 is a bad matchup, I don't see it worse than neutral =P. Sonic is very dynamic as a Character; its not just people's playstyles that are drastically different, its Sonic's character that allows them to play differently and still be somewhat effective. I remember when I made that thread about what were your best/worst/most fun matchups with Sonic, and it seemed Sonic mains could barely agree on the worst matchups. Yet when I see similar threads in other boards, its usually the same couple of characters mentioned. Like Some of us think Snak is one of Sonic's easiest matchups, others think he's one of the hardest. Worst characters included Olimar, Wario, Mario, Peach, DK, Pika, Wolf, and they spanned all across the roster, except for a few regular good ones like Bowser, CF, and Ganon.
or maybe it just means Sonic is really bad and has terrible matchups with everyone. Lolasooo.
But seriously, i think Sonic allows room for truly dynamic gameplay, and I think Sonic players need to learn to be more dynamic in order to bring Sonic up. And I think they have the potential to do that.
And I wrote alot and am tired now anyways, so done for now hehe.
Umby
Smash Master
There should definitely be a guide called "Learn2Run". Now stop typing tl;dr arguments and get back to your video making.
Galanoth7395
Smash Apprentice
im confident that the next tier list comes out christmas or new years day. i can't wait...
@napilopez: that's a freaking big post XD
check this out:
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Middle Tier:
Bowser
Low Tier:
Mario
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Top Tier:
Metaknight
King Dedede
High Tier:
Kirby
_____________________________________________________________________________________
High Tier:
Wolf
Middle Tier:
Fox
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Low Tier:
Ganondorf
Link
Has the world gone mad?????
@napilopez: that's a freaking big post XD
check this out:
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Middle Tier:
Bowser
Low Tier:
Mario
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Top Tier:
Metaknight
King Dedede
High Tier:
Kirby
_____________________________________________________________________________________
High Tier:
Wolf
Middle Tier:
Fox
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Low Tier:
Ganondorf
Link
Has the world gone mad?????
Bowser King
Have It Your Way
1) I doubt they would release a new tier list only a few months after the old one >_>
2) Those are all accurate. >_>
MK is 101% a Top tier
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Bowser King
A1lion835
Smash Champion
I've changed my views on tiers. In my opinion, there is a ranking of characters, but tiers are not the way to go. Here is 1 example.
Event 1: new smasher views tier list.
Event 2: as a result, said smasher is more likely to chose a top tier char (aka Meta Knight) than a bottom tier char (aka Captain Falcon).
Event 3: since more new smashers are choosing top tier characters, Metagame is mostly developed for those characters, reinforcing the tier list
Event 4: because of this, 3 things happen:
A) The character at the top of the tier list is guaranteed that position for years to come (take sheik in melee, for example)
B) Characters at the bottom are guaranteed to stay there (bowser in melee)
C) bottom tiers are seen less and less competitively, while top tiers are seen more and more often in tournaments
Here is another example of what happens:
Before tier list is released, only a few people say "Meta Knight is god" or "Captain Falcon sucks"
The tier list is released, and all of a sudden everyone is saying "Meta Knight is god" and "Captain Falcon sucks"
Hm. Sound strange to you?
This gives new members of smashboards the feeling that if they don't like Meta Knight, they're the odd one out.
I'm positive the following things would have the described results:
If Captain Falcon and Meta Knight had been switched in the tier list, Captain Falcon Metagame would have devoloped extremely quickly and everyone would be saying he was god
If Kirby had been listed as top tier in Melee, some awesome technique for Kirby would have been discovered that lets him kill at 5% or that his f-smash's tip spikes incredibly hard or something like that
If fox had been the bottom of the bottom in Melee the entire time, the waveshine would never have been discovered.
Many people will give me facts like "But Meta Knight has more wins than the next 7 people combined in tournaments! How could you say he shouldn't be top tier?" Guess what might've happened if Link was listed at the top?
The SBR told us with the 6th melee tier list (the april fools one) that their word was not the word of god, and I think the majority of smashers need to remember that.
Event 1: new smasher views tier list.
Event 2: as a result, said smasher is more likely to chose a top tier char (aka Meta Knight) than a bottom tier char (aka Captain Falcon).
Event 3: since more new smashers are choosing top tier characters, Metagame is mostly developed for those characters, reinforcing the tier list
Event 4: because of this, 3 things happen:
A) The character at the top of the tier list is guaranteed that position for years to come (take sheik in melee, for example)
B) Characters at the bottom are guaranteed to stay there (bowser in melee)
C) bottom tiers are seen less and less competitively, while top tiers are seen more and more often in tournaments
Here is another example of what happens:
Before tier list is released, only a few people say "Meta Knight is god" or "Captain Falcon sucks"
The tier list is released, and all of a sudden everyone is saying "Meta Knight is god" and "Captain Falcon sucks"
Hm. Sound strange to you?
This gives new members of smashboards the feeling that if they don't like Meta Knight, they're the odd one out.
I'm positive the following things would have the described results:
If Captain Falcon and Meta Knight had been switched in the tier list, Captain Falcon Metagame would have devoloped extremely quickly and everyone would be saying he was god
If Kirby had been listed as top tier in Melee, some awesome technique for Kirby would have been discovered that lets him kill at 5% or that his f-smash's tip spikes incredibly hard or something like that
If fox had been the bottom of the bottom in Melee the entire time, the waveshine would never have been discovered.
Many people will give me facts like "But Meta Knight has more wins than the next 7 people combined in tournaments! How could you say he shouldn't be top tier?" Guess what might've happened if Link was listed at the top?
The SBR told us with the 6th melee tier list (the april fools one) that their word was not the word of god, and I think the majority of smashers need to remember that.
TEECO
Smash Ace
Looks just right
A1lion835
Smash Champion
Do you mean my argument, another argument, or the list? Whatever. To my post.
In this post, I would like to address the SLAPAHO argument that tiers exist. Their argument can be viewed here:http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/User:Semicolon/Treatise_on_the_Existence_of_Tiers.
One of the arguments they put forward says that the argument that I used (the "people switch to top tiers when the list comes out") is incorrect because it only applies to a small minority of people. I acknowledge that this (emphasis) may be true, but that I can contradict them with one of their own statements.
They have stated that "only the slightest change can make a difference in ranking" (not a direct quote, but something that they basically say). Remember that.
They say that there may be a few people who switch to MK and refuse to play as anyone else once the list comes out (I'm pretty sure that's about word-for-word).
Let's say out of, say, 1,000,000 smashers, 1000 are the smashers mentioned in the paragraph above (completely made up statistic). A few of these players, even if it's only one in every 100, may discover something that significantly increases MK metagame. Maybe something that gives him an even longer recovery, or that certain hitboxes of his attacks spike, or something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nkh6z4w3-uw&feature=related.
Now, remember that "only the slightest change can make a difference in ranking" quote I wanted you to remember?
This will also apply, to a smaller extent, to other top tiers (example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lgM7CJGANU&feature=related).
Now, let's take a bottom tier character. Maybe, CF, for example?
Of the 1,000,000 smashers (again) there are how many people who would go for CF upon seeing the tier list? Let's say 500. That would mean half as many techniques would be developed for him, but over time, it gets smaller.
That may not seem so bad, but CF would probably have more people for him, then, say, Zelda, because people would like to have bottom tiers boosted up more than #20. Maybe only 200 of those people would choose Zelda, so only 1/5th of the # of techniques for Meta Knight would be made for Zelda.
You may look at the numbers I have presented and say, "Hey! The numbers wouldn't even come close to a million! This guy's a f*cking r*tard!" I have 2 reasons as to why this is false:
1. I did not, ever, ever, say that these numbers were real. I merely gave such a huge number to give you an idea, that, even 1 in 1000 people (my given ratio of those Meta Knight chars) can make a difference, just like SLAPAHO said.
2. There will also be many people who will (like me), not choose who to play with because of the tier list.
If none of this has convinced you that tiers are the wrong way to go, I suggest buying a brain. They are located in the "Get Real" section of your local Wal-Mart.
greenflame88
Smash Cadet
I agree A1lion! Except Im a little content with the list... I main Lucas and I'm glad he just has to go up one spot to be middle tier... HE BEAT NESS! Lol. Anyone I totally understand what you mean cause when I got melee, I picked Sheik because everyone was using her... But I picked Lucas in this one and I'm stuck.
XD
XD
A1lion835
Smash Champion
Thanks. I'm glad to see at least one person isn't insane. That proved my point from my first post this page completely. People picked Sheik b/c everyone was picking Sheik. And out of, 50 people, 2 or 3 came up with advanced techs, thus reinforcing sheik's status. Because of what happened with Sheik, I'm willing to bet MK just earned himself top of the top for years to come.
I'd better get credit for that some day.
No, seriously.
And by the way, if you think we're wrong because we're "n00bs", you're a nincompoop.
I personally believe I was saved from tiers. I probably would've chosen fox if I'd seen the tier list. But I picked Kirby, not knowing he was 3rd to last. By the time I knew, I'd become addicted to using him.
I'd better get credit for that some day.
No, seriously.
And by the way, if you think we're wrong because we're "n00bs", you're a nincompoop.
I personally believe I was saved from tiers. I probably would've chosen fox if I'd seen the tier list. But I picked Kirby, not knowing he was 3rd to last. By the time I knew, I'd become addicted to using him.
greenflame88
Smash Cadet
haha. Yeah exactly. Metaknight is a little complicated though, so for those true noobs that pick him cause hes top, they'll have to practice for a while...
XD
XD
A1lion835
Smash Champion
Speaking of which...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu3kqxTY0Bc&feature=related.
...lol
Edit: I know that much of the metagame-making will be done by true players, people who played with MK before the tier list, but some new people will.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu3kqxTY0Bc&feature=related.
...lol
Edit: I know that much of the metagame-making will be done by true players, people who played with MK before the tier list, but some new people will.
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
Nope.
Tiers exist and are a staple of just about every fighting game community on the globe. Have fun trying to alter a precedent that's been in place since like, the dawn of competitive fighting games. Oh, and another thing?
I need a brain.
Edit: And I played MK too when my interest in Brawl peaked. I got bored with him after a while and swapped over to Fox. Whenever I deign to play Barlw, that is.
Smooth Criminal
A1lion835
Smash Champion
Yes, I definitely just denied that tiers existed. It's clearly in the 2nd sentence right about "There is a ranking of characters." Yup. Complete denial of tiers.
You really do need a brain.
A1lion835
Smash Champion
Also, to you tier-idiots (must use that phrase more often!). Yoshi can waveland in Brawl. I want recognition as the first person (I think) to have discovered this and posted it here. In 15 minutes, it goes up.
A1lion835
Smash Champion
All right, here it is. The waveland in brawl is different than that of Melee, because of the nature of the air dodge. Instead of being based on a character's traction, it is mostly based on horizontal air speed and somewhat on traction. If you are traveling quickly left or right, and, as you hit the ground, air dodge, you should put up a shield and slide. You can do one of a few things:
1. Skip the landing lag frames and frames of putting up a shield
2. Go straight from mid-air to a dodge
3. Go into a roll without landing lag or shield putting-up lag
4. Shield grab without landing or putting-up-shield-lag
5. You do not have to put up a shield, and can attack, tilt, edge-hog, etc., though this is hard to do.
I call this the Eggdash.
Edit: Sweet! I'm a smash child!
1. Skip the landing lag frames and frames of putting up a shield
2. Go straight from mid-air to a dodge
3. Go into a roll without landing lag or shield putting-up lag
4. Shield grab without landing or putting-up-shield-lag
5. You do not have to put up a shield, and can attack, tilt, edge-hog, etc., though this is hard to do.
I call this the Eggdash.
Edit: Sweet! I'm a smash child!
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
Wow, "Brawl n00b" (maybe I should use this phrase more often. Because, you know, I'm a tier-idiot). You discovered Draconic (Dragonic) Reverse!
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175060
Congrats! Just about everybody in the Yoshi boards has known this for months!
Next.
Smooth Criminal
A1lion835
Smash Champion
Actually, while I won't say my technique is nothing like it, it's different. You know the difference between wavedash and waveland, right? The mechanics, as well as what happens, are very different for the Eggdash and Dragonic Reverse. I won't say that "I developed Yoshi game incredibly" but my discovery is different, and has different uses (though it is similar).
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
Um...
Okay. Go post this over in the Yoshi boards. I want to see their response to this. If they say it's a Draconic Reverse, you owe me 50 pushups. If it's something different and is actually useful, than I'll massage your ego for a week. If it turns out to be something different and is useless, well...I don't know.
Good deal?
P.S. I know what a waveland and wavedash are, FYI.
Smooth Criminal
A1lion835
Smash Champion
I already posted it there before your response. We'll see how it goes.
Thats not actually the dragonic reverse, but it seems outclassed by the DR.
In other words, DR seems to be an extension of what he discovered.
His waveland requires a short hop. DR uses Yoshi's dip during his second jump combined with his waveland to do the same thing without ever leaving the ground.
In other words, DR seems to be an extension of what he discovered.
A1lion835
Smash Champion
Whatever. Can you edgehog with DR?
I'm fairly sure you can, if you use it to go off the edge.
greenflame88
Smash Cadet
haha. I don't really know what's going on, but back to the teir list, lol, What exactly happened? DK near the top and C. Falcon dead last? I mean, I can't play AT ALL with Wario... I'm just a little confused by the teir list... but oh well. One day I will make Lucas go up to Middle! (BUAHAHAHA! I laugh at myself!)
XD
XD
A1lion835
Smash Champion
I think that eggdashing can be used to waveland from being in the air, that a DR can't, if nothing else, as I imagine it would be hard to DR while falling, or you could use it when you have no jumps left.
A1lion835
Smash Champion
I don't get the tier list either. I'm okay with Falcon being bad, but behind Ganon? Just insane.
Edit: F*ck. I'm the only one not asleep now.
Edit: F*ck. I'm the only one not asleep now.
8AngeL8
Smash Lord
^Ganon has a great tech chasing game and decent priority on a couple moves.
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
Ganon may be moving up, thanks to that Super Ganon Jump thingamajig he has.
- Status