The Official SBR Brawl Tier List v1.0

[cutter]

All I can say is... it will be interesting to see what the SBR discussion will be like about Sonic.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I have no idea what it'll be like.
I'm hope it's not all based on hearsay from what rubbish people spread on these boards, because they'll be too frightened to use Sonic at all in fear in catching some sort of disease or something.
It'll basically be.
Sonic sucks. He has no priority. No kill moves. No range. Bad air game. Bad ground game. No projectile. No potential.

Do any of the SBR actually main Sonic? Serious question :\

 

[MyNameIsRyan]

I have no idea what it'll be like.
I'm hope it's not all based on hearsay from what rubbish people spread on these boards, because they'll be too frightened to use Sonic at all in fear in catching some sort of disease or something.
It'll basically be.
Sonic sucks. He has no priority. No kill moves. No range. Bad air game. Bad ground game. No projectile. No potential.

Do any of the SBR actually main Sonic? Serious question :\

I wonder that as well. And his air game is not that bad.

 

[SmashChu]

Top level players will know how to fight them, or at least have the ability to come up with a suitable strategy after a match against said player. And the top tier characters have more than enough tools to simply create devestating traps and brickwalls while the player figures out how to fight against said low tier.

Too bad it doesn't work like that.


A competative player won't know what a competative Falcon looks like. Sure, you may look at a few vidoes, but if you've never fought one, you won't have a clue what to do. It may take more then two matches being able to figure it out (Pokemon Trainer especially).

Yeah, for like a match or two. But typically the low tier characters already have a disadvantage against the high tier character, so the lack of knowledge of the high tier player mearly evens the matchup or tips it slightly in the more knowledgable player's favor (temporarily).

First of all, like I said, the potential of the characters in unknown beyond the top three.

The thing is, it wont even the scale. It will completely flip it on it's side. Trust me when I say this, knowledge is one of the major determining factors. Knowledge means you hit first. Knowledge means you don't die. Knowledge means you can easily be steam rolled in capable hands. This is generally a new concept for competative Smash. Knowing the character helps a lot, and you'll find that if you don't that it's much harder to win. If the lower character is better, then he'll win. Again, tier only come into play when both players are of equal skill, have no stage advantage, and their play styles do not conflict.

It's not a matter that my character is better, and has never been. It is almost impossible to prove the tier list correct. This is becuase...
1)Popularity greatly effects who's on the top
2)Anyone who isn't high is generally ignored.
3)Low tiers can beat high tiers.

I'm not exactly sure what you meant by this, please elaborate.

Some characters are higher becuase they can counter other high characters. There was some discussion on this earlier.

Once again, this is a little confusing. Do you mean that the low tier might have an advantage over the top tier, but it's overlooked because the low tier character is unpopular? Or do you mean that the top tier player may not know how to fight the low tier character, and thus the low tier character would have an advantage as a result?

Sorry. It's the former. What is bolded.

Of course the matchups can't be 100% accurate. But hopefully they will become accurate enough to base opinions off them and predict outcomes of matches consistantly (if they don't the the matchups need to be changed).

True. The only problem is that, again, a lot may be over looked due to the fact as you get lower, more characters are ignored.

Of course, match ups may be more important in Brawl then Melee simple due to reasons mentioned before. With less focus on ATs, match ups may become more of a role in matches. I think this we can agree on.

I disagree that the low tiers would be virtually ignored. We are looking for characters that may have an advantage against Metaknight, specifically because he is the most popular character. That's how we found that Link has an even matchup with Marth, and that Young Link has a slight advantage on Peach in melee.

True (did not know that). Of course (and this is a reason I put a lot of emphasis on knowledge) many players will stick to higher characters rather then try to get good with their low favorite. As such, players find more things for higher characters. There is a possibility that stuff exist for lower characters, but it may never be found simple because everyone look more to the higher ups. Also, this is why I make the emphise on knowledge. That the lowbies won't be seen in tounramant in a blue moon. Those who do use low characters, however, will fight higher characters.

And while popularity is indeed a factor, I would never consider it to be a strong determining factor like you claim.

It may be more influential to match ups, but it's part of the reason the bottom grows. The characters on the top are who get played, and as a result, are the ones who stuff is found for, and better strategies made. They advance, but characters lower on the list will be ignored, and anything they have may never be found.

 

[Dark Sonic]

The thing is, it wont even the scale. It will completely flip it on it's side. Trust me when I say this, knowledge is one of the major determining factors. Knowledge means you hit first. Knowledge means you don't die. Knowledge means you can easily be steam rolled in capable hands. This is generally a new concept for competative Smash. Knowing the character helps a lot, and you'll find that if you don't that it's much harder to win. If the lower character is better, then he'll win. Again, tier only come into play when both players are of equal skill, have no stage advantage, and their play styles do not conflict.

I know this already. I just think that it doesn't take as long to figure out characters as you would think. You don't have to figure out the whole character, but rather just which of your moves can be used to shut them down. A Metaknight can beat Falcon by just spacing fairs and d-tilts for the entire match. Now if the Falcon player is better at spacing than you are...then you've got a problem.

1)Popularity greatly effects who's on the top

I disagree. I think it has very little effect on who is on top. Snake was on top for a while, despite Metaknight being a much more popular character. This was because at the time, Metaknight players did not know how to handle high level Snakes. But Metaknight himself always had the tools to deal with Snake, we just didn't know what they were at the time.

2)Anyone who isn't high is generally ignored.

Yoshi would like to speak with you.

3)Low tiers can beat high tiers.

What does this have to do with anything?

Some characters are higher becuase they can counter other high characters. There was some discussion on this earlier.

Well, that's because matchups against high tiers carry more weight than matchups against low tiers (as you generally see them more).

As such, players find more things for higher characters. There is a possibility that stuff exist for lower characters, but it may never be found simple because everyone look more to the higher ups. Also, this is why I make the emphise on knowledge. That the lowbies won't be seen in tounramant in a blue moon. Those who do use low characters, however, will fight higher characters.

It's true that the metagames of higher tiered characters will evolve faster, but that doesn't mean that the other character's metagames won't evolve at all. I look at Yoshi, Sonic, Mario, Shiek, ect and can't believe how much progress they have made.

It may be more influential to match ups, but it's part of the reason the bottom grows. The characters on the top are who get played, and as a result, are the ones who stuff is found for, and better strategies made. They advance, but characters lower on the list will be ignored, and anything they have may never be found.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=154329
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QMRTsGfy0c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdiAKWTfgo

*note* Grinding is pretty much useless, but it still counts as finding "something," and shows that we're at least looking for usefull stuff, if not always finding it.
I beg to differ.

 

[Barge]

Why do you guys make 5000 word posts?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Why do you guys make 5000 word posts?

Because we have a lot to say?

 

[Zinc Elemental]

Why do you guys make 5000 word posts?

Because a well-thought out and supported arguement takes up a lot of space...

 

[Umby]

Why do you guys make 5000 word posts?

Because you can't handle 9001 word posts.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Internet memes are fun.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Hey, hey.

Barge has some witty one-liners.

Though not as witty as SiD.

SIGH.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Braggins]

The SBR had planned on updating the original post and adding their reasoning behind all the placements. However, it never happened because immediately following the posting of the thread every single member of the SBR came to an untimely demise by the knee of Captain Falcon.

On a more serious note, I think the list is pretty good. I would change a few things if it were up to me, but it is definitely a good start.

 

[Johnknight1]

^ Lulz at the knee comment.

WTF is this thread about? TIERS DON EXITS! Their a lie created by the government to confuse us. Every character is equal, and everyone can win. SRSLY, you guys are dumb.

[/Ends epicly amazing sarcasm]

On a more seriously unseriously awesome note...

The tier list is definitely good, and I think anyone who doesn't agree with most of it is probably confused about how the tiers work anyways. However for future tiers I think we need the bottom tier slot back (like Smash 64's and Melee's tiers, respectivily). I also think if we get the bottom tier slot back, the tiers should be organized in the 7:8:7:8:7 format (instead of over 1/3rd of the roster being on the bottom while less then 10% in on the top like with Melee's terribly ugly and organized tiers). That's my two cents at least. Seriously though-good tiers *waits for Toon Link to go up *

Seriously though, we need a [early] April Fool's Day tier list for 2009. That'd be perfect. Captain Falcon as top tier ftw!

 

[wWw Dazwa]

The SBR had planned on updating the original post and adding their reasoning behind all the placements. However, it never happened because immediately following the posting of the thread every single member of the SBR came to an untimely demise by the knee of Captain Falcon.

On a more serious note, I think the list is pretty good. I would change a few things if it were up to me, but it is definitely a good start.

We should hire this guy to do our press releases

 

[Dark Sonic]

I don't think tier distinctions should be based on numbers, but rather gaps in character potential (which is how melee's tier list was, though it's pretty outdated now).

 

[ChronoSquare]

Wario is sitting right at where Jigglypuff was in Melee (pre-Mango). This makes me 8D

But getting my *** kicked by Sonic as one of the best brawl players in my school. is like o.O. Then again, considering they know Taj, that's not so much a big deal after all... XD

 

[balaji1251988]

more detils

can you please give me some more additonal details

Keyword Research Georgia Health Insurance

 

[Zo_Danma]

**** off, spambot. Somebody ban it.

 

[Collective of Bears]

**** off, spambot. Somebody ban it.

Kill it with fire and holy water.

 

[Blad01]

Does someone know when the SBR plans to make his new tier list ?

Ness and Lucas in low... Sheik uppon them :{

 

[choknater]

can you please give me some more additonal details

Keyword Research Georgia Health Insurance

Yeah, sure thing! The tier list is a way to rank the characters according to each of their respective metagames. It is updated every now and then (the SBR isn't very liberal with tier lists so they change very infrequently) but it does give a good general idea of how each character can fare at its full potential.

balaji1251988, perhaps you should post in Brawl Tactical Discussion or the Character boards so you can learn more about the game and become a better smasher! I can see that you have joined recently, so welcome to smashboards!

Spoiler

talking to a bot... too good!!!!

 

[Collective of Bears]

Yeah, sure thing! The tier list is a way to rank the characters according to each of their respective metagames. It is updated every now and then (the SBR isn't very liberal with tier lists so they change very infrequently) but it does give a good general idea of how each character can fare at its full potential.

balaji1251988, perhaps you should post in Brawl Tactical Discussion or the Character boards so you can learn more about the game and become a better smasher! I can see that you have joined recently, so welcome to smashboards!

Spoiler

talking to a bot... too good!!!!

Methinks that was a bad idea...

 

[Fletch]

Methinks that was a bad idea...

He's just trying to be nice to the noobie, give him a break.

 

[Steeler]

pokemon trainer has no hard counters wheeeeeeeeeeee

</bait>

 

[~ Gheb ~]

^ lol wtf???

 

[choknater]

No, I'd just rather talk to a bot than the rest of the scrubs here on smashboards.

 

[Collective of Bears]

He's just trying to be nice to the noobie, give him a break.

Bots =/= Noobs. And by my experience with bots, we get a massive spam parade every time you quote one.

 

[kr3wman]

No, I'd just rather talk to a bot than the rest of the scrubs here on smashboards.

You're mean...

 

[Leifio]

Mario is low tier

 

[Barge]

Mario is low tier

wow, change your sig, or im gonna report you, don't need it stretching out the **** pages

 

[Leifio]

oh.... ok diddnt know it streched out...

 

[Jigglymaster]

The next tier list Diddy will definatly be above DDD and becoming the 3rd best character. Its a unsued character with ALOT of potetion. If not Diddy is definatly higher then Rob should be.

 

[ShadowLink84]

The next tier list Diddy will definatly be above DDD and becoming the 3rd best character. Its a unsued character with ALOT of potetion. If not Diddy is definatly higher then Rob should be.

I want some of the weed you got.

 

[The Bird]

I'd really like to fight you my main is Ike and my bro's is Link (he's a tad bit better than me but i usually don't fight link with Ike ,its less fun

 

[The Bird]

although I'd like to say that Mario shouldn't be in the lower tiers, but almost all the new characters are high tiers therefore pushing a middle tier back some, meta knight deserves the top tier with his recovery never ending, by the way is the infinite shadow cape banned (i don't care to use real names)

Still "tiers don exist" lol

 

[Zinc Elemental]

although I'd like to say that Mario shouldn't be in the lower tiers, but almost all the new characters are high tiers therefore pushing a middle tier back some, meta knight deserves the top tier with his recovery never ending, by the way is the infinite shadow cape banned (i don't care to use real names)

Still "tiers don exist" lol

The Infinite Dimensional Cape is suggested to be banned, but whether or not it is actually allowed is up to the tournament organizer.

 

[SmashChu]

I know this already. I just think that it doesn't take as long to figure out characters as you would think. You don't have to figure out the whole character, but rather just which of your moves can be used to shut them down. A Metaknight can beat Falcon by just spacing fairs and d-tilts for the entire match. Now if the Falcon player is better at spacing than you are...then you've got a problem.

It doesn't seem the case (same goes for many here, even more so).
Of course, it sounds easy on paper. "Oh, I just have to learn what he is doing", but stratigies can change for both sides. This makes it rather tough if you don't know the character well enough. Again, if you lack the knowledge, then it will be verty hard to fight. if yuo learn it, he/she can change it, and, with limited knowledge, you may have trouble adapting to it again.

It's a matter of flexibility. The more you know, the more flexible you are. The less you know, the less flexible you are. See, this is what happens. You can't apapt well enough, but your foe can.

I disagree. I think it has very little effect on who is on top. Snake was on top for a while, despite Metaknight being a much more popular character. This was because at the time, Metaknight players did not know how to handle high level Snakes. But Metaknight himself always had the tools to deal with Snake, we just didn't know what they were at the time.

Is this not true for any other character?

Thus the point. Meta-Knight was popular and so who figure out how to deal with Snake. Well.....you know. (Note:Even though Snake was more popular, it doesn't mean Meta-Knight was not).

Many of the other characters may have these as well. But if they are never played, they will never be discovered.

Yoshi would like to speak with you.

Well, what about Yoshi?

What does this have to do with anything?

Everything. The who point of the argument was "A competent Meta-Knight can beat the best Captain Falcon.

One thing Smash Boards forgets is that low tier characters can beat higher ones. It's all a matter of skill and being able to use the character. This is something that Smashboardians forget and they see the list as the doctrine of Smash. Look at many other fighting games and you'll see that low tier characters beat high tier characters, even in major tournamants. It's all a matter of skill.

Well, that's because matchups against high tiers carry more weight than matchups against low tiers (as you generally see them more).

Which is exactly what I said.

It's true that the metagames of higher tiered characters will evolve faster, but that doesn't mean that the other character's metagames won't evolve at all. I look at Yoshi, Sonic, Mario, Shiek, ect and can't believe how much progress they have made.

One thing is that it may evolve faster, but also evolve more overall. In someways, it's unavoidable (even if some of this logic was actually applied). Of course, becuase it grows faster, many players may more towards those characters.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=154329
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QMRTsGfy0c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdiAKWTfgo

*note* Grinding is pretty much useless, but it still counts as finding "something," and shows that we're at least looking for usefull stuff, if not always finding it.
I beg to differ.

Fair enough (not to sound like an *** though)

Also, can someone answer me this: Why is Yoshi low?

 

[Dark Sonic]

It doesn't seem the case (same goes for many here, even more so).
Of course, it sounds easy on paper. "Oh, I just have to learn what he is doing", but stratigies can change for both sides. This makes it rather tough if you don't know the character well enough. Again, if you lack the knowledge, then it will be verty hard to fight. if yuo learn it, he/she can change it, and, with limited knowledge, you may have trouble adapting to it again.

More like

"Oh I just have to learn his range, and then outrange him for the entire match with my fast disjointed hitboxes."

It's a matter of flexibility. The more you know, the more flexible you are. The less you know, the less flexible you are. See, this is what happens. You can't apapt well enough, but your foe can.

Your foe is relying on the fact that you don't know how to fight their character, but this advantage quickly diminishes over the match. They may not figure out how to fight you right away, but it doesn't take long to get a general idea of a character's strengths and weaknesses.

Is this not true for any other character?

Thus the point. Meta-Knight was popular and so who figure out how to deal with Snake. Well.....you know. (Note:Even though Snake was more popular, it doesn't mean Meta-Knight was not).

Many of the other characters may have these as well. But if they are never played, they will never be discovered.

Never is really a terrible word. It might take much longer, but (provided that the game lasts long enough) eventually all of the characters will be fleshed out.

Well, what about Yoshi?

They found a chaingrab on half the cast, leading to a dair spike on some of them for an easy gimp. They found a cool wavedash like tech. They found an infinite on Wario, who happens to be one of the more popular characters nowadays. They've really made a lot of progress.

Everything. The who point of the argument was "A competent Meta-Knight can beat the best Captain Falcon.

It would have to be quite a large skill gap for the Metaknight to lose.

One thing Smash Boards forgets is that low tier characters can beat higher ones. It's all a matter of skill and being able to use the character. This is something that Smashboardians forget and they see the list as the doctrine of Smash. Look at many other fighting games and you'll see that low tier characters beat high tier characters, even in major tournamants. It's all a matter of skill.

I don't understand what you have against smashboards, but clearly you are looking too deep into people's comments. When we call something a 10-0 matchup, we mean simply that it is a rediculously hard matchup, possibly one of the hardest matchups in the game. That doesn't mean impossible. You're opinion of the smash community is just plain demeaning.

Which is exactly what I said.

So we agree then.

One thing is that it may evolve faster, but also evolve more overall. In someways, it's unavoidable (even if some of this logic was actually applied). Of course, becuase it grows faster, many players may more towards those characters.

Is this not true in all fighting games? This is really just common sense. I guess we agree here too.

Also, can someone answer me this: Why is Yoshi low?

Because Yoshi has the stereotype of being a "bad" character, much like Sonic. The progess that Yoshi has made is often ignored, because so far it has not had a big impact results wise (it has potential to change them, but potential unused is meaningless).

 

[Metro Knight]

Yea, a lot of characters do not get a whole lot of props for seeming half way decent. I dunno, I lose to my brother's wolf like 80% of the time, at best 60% of the time with Link, and I beat him the majority of the time with Metaknight, so... the tiers do exist, even though I have played Link 30x as much as Metaknight, I still have better chances to win using him, the sad sad world of Brawl.

 

[choknater]

Yea, a lot of characters do not get a whole lot of props

It's probably because they don't have enough street cred to get the props they deserve. If they were used more, especially on the STREETS (a stage like Onett would be sufficient, but you can get major street cred on Big Blue.) Probably if they chilled with the homies on the streets more, then they'd get their props.

for seeming half way decent.

Actually, I think they seem 0.52 way decent. I know, I know, it's a little too specific, but we need to analyze these minor differences when discussing how completely objective the tiers are.

I dunno, I lose to my brother's wolf like 80%

Proof?

of the time,

What time? The postwar North or the antebellum south? Or are you talking about Medieval France? Please be more specific.

at best 60% of the time with Link,

Good stuff, low tier for life!

and

What? Seriously, could you PLEASE be more specific with your argument? it's really getting on my nerves to read it.

I beat him the majority of the time with Metaknight, so... the tiers do exist, even though I have played Link 30x as much as Metaknight, I still have better chances to win using him

Oh I see what you're getting at.

the sad

Playing with quotes is fun.

sad

But seriously...

world of Brawl.

There's too much of it going on, I can't even read the quotes and the walls of text that follow.

Spoiler

I have nothing against you Metroknight, I just wanted to poke fun at the quoting ^_^;