The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[mountain_tiger]

I still don't know why more people don't play her

Melee players probably avoid her in Brawl because she sucked in Melee (the same reason why not many people play Bowser in Brawl).

Otherwise, it's because Zelda has some pretty fundamental flaws, arguably the worst of which is that her aerials are completely unreliable. Yes, Fair and Bair are super strong if you sweetspot, but if you don't, they can attack before you recover. SH Nair sort of works, but that soon gets predictable. And Dair is useless if your opponent is on the ground. Not to mention the fact that people are starting to get around things like her USmash.

But really, probably the main reason is because she gets utterly destroyed by MK and G&W (and maybe a couple of other top tiers as well).

 

[Browny]

argh all this (not recent) talk of how impossible grabbing wario is is so annoying >_<

comments like 'LOL grabbing a wario, yeah right' :/

I see matches of the best warios and they get grabbed often enough. If snake uses his boost and pivot grab a lot i cant imagine wario never getting grabbed...

 

[Red Arremer]

But Snake has no Grab Release on Wario.

So these Warios perhaps were less careful? I don't know.

It's really hard to grab a good Wario, so hard that these grab releases he has absolutely not make him worse.

 

[Browny]

no GR utilt?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Snake can Nair(this can be DIed out of), Utilt, Bair or Uair.

 

[Jimnymebob]

I just remembered about that video of Sakurai playing against that winner of a tournament, and he won with Ganondorf, the character at the bottom of the tier list.

This either proves that Sakurai is too pro, or Ganondorf should be top tier .

However, I do suffer from the bias against Zelda due to her being not so good in Melee, but that being said I'm not that fond of Sheik now, due to her drop from Melee to Brawl. This has probably been asked before, but whereabout would Zelda and Sheik place if they were place in one single spot on the tier list?

 

[Meru.]

I'm probably going to get killed, but I still think Zelda isn't that bad, just "underplayed".

Anyway, Zelda/Shiek > Zelda or Sheik imo.

I just remembered about that video of Sakurai playing against that winner of a tournament, and he won with Ganondorf, the character at the bottom of the tier list.

This either proves that Sakurai is too pro, or Ganondorf should be top tier .

Mr. Entertainer played with items. Not a serious match anyway. But I think Sakurai is too pro. He kinda made the game.

 

[mountain_tiger]

I'm probably going to get killed, but I still think Zelda isn't that bad, just "underplayed".

Anyway, Zelda/Shiek > Zelda or Sheik imo.

Well, they were kind of designed to be used together, so yeah, Zelda/Sheik > Zelda or Sheik. I still go by the belief that they're best used with the following: Sheik to rack up damage, Zelda to kill.

If they were grouped together, they'd be somewhere in B Tier, I'd imagine.

 

[Collective of Bears]

I want to see Sakurai go up against M2K.

 

[Red Arremer]

I just remembered about that video of Sakurai playing against that winner of a tournament, and he won with Ganondorf, the character at the bottom of the tier list.

This either proves that Sakurai is too pro, or Ganondorf should be top tier .

That winner of a tournament was probably not a real player or it was only a few weeks after release (because she played really bad), additionally to that she played Lucas, a character only slightly better than Ganondorf. And as you said, they played with items.

 

[Browny]

Sakurai could win with Roy in brawl, thats how pro he is

 

[rehab]

It's not even that it's "that hard" to grab Wario compared to other characters that it "doesn't happen" (of course it does) but he's good enough to beat them back anyway, especially since he thrives on a pressure game that has him punishing other characters for doing things that would make many other characters be in a punishable position. He really has to be fought in a different way. Bishes don't know bout his shield pressure

 

[adumbrodeus]

It's not even that it's "that hard" to grab Wario compared to other characters that it "doesn't happen" (of course it does) but he's good enough to beat them back anyway, especially since he thrives on a pressure game that has him punishing other characters for doing things that would make many other characters be in a punishable position. He really has to be fought in a different way. Bishes don't know bout his shield pressure

I disagree, his aerial mobility permits him to be incredibly safe, even more so then Marth. Honestly, if he could be reliably grabbed, a ton of characters obliterate him on grab, and by that I mean true infinites.

 

[DMG]

Ah more talk on Wario?

Wario is one of the hardest characters to grab when it comes to forcing your opponent into that situation. It's easier to force someone like Snake into getting grabbed either by forcing him to airdodge and catching him when he lands, forcing him to spotdodge, etc, but he has better moves to prevent grabs (grenades, Ftilt, even jab or Utilt). Wario is harder to force into a grab with his mobility, but he doesn't have as much to stop it with his puny range.

Vs Snake, Wario can, on most stages, play in such a way as to never get grabbed. This however is a very ineffective style overall if Wario is needing to approach Snake or rack up damage on him or even trying to kill him. This style however is very good if Wario has a good sized lead and decides to not try a more risky strategy.

So yes, Wario can play very well to not get grabbed my many characters, however in the big picture it's not always the best use of his time to do so.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I knew that someone was gonna run to those charts. The thing about the Zelda board charts is that they were made to be so horrid so people wouldn't get the idea that "omg, Zelda is so good against MK!" In practice, MK is probably 40:60 to 30:70 for Zelda, depending on how the MK is playing and if the Zelda knows that she is gonna have to play by shield. Since no really good Zelda has played the top MKs (as far as I know, though maybe Ryoko's done somethig, iunno), we just throw a really bad ratio there so we can get the idea to everyone that it's bad.

I don't exactly have much else to go by. >_> I don't play Zelda.

As far as I'm concerned about Ike, though, MK beats both of them just about equally, Ike *may* do better against Snake (but that's only because I believe it's a horrid fight for Zelda, so bad that I'm not sure if Ike even does that bad), Ike likely does better against G&W than Zelda, and he may do better against some other characters that don't really factor in too heavily, like Peach. Zelda, on the other hand, holds solid advantages at best or slight advantages at worst against DDD, ICs, and Rob (imo).

Ike has the advantage against the ICs, but ya D3 ain't so good for Ike. He's 45-55 against G&W, and somewhere in the neutral range against Peach. If it's a 45-55 or 5-5 is in the air a bit.

They're probably equally bad against Zero Suit, Marth, Wario (maybe), Olimar, and then some of the more obscure characters again. Ike likely does worse against Falco, Pikachu, and Diddy, but again, I don't even know his match-ups off the back of my hand or anything. Really, the end result is that with the exception of the very, very few characters in this game where they have drastically different fights for against characters that matter (DDD), I don't think their match-ups really mean **** in comparison.

We're neutral with Wario (45-55), LOL against Olimar (3-7. Stupid ******) Diddy is either 4-6 or 45-55, so unless Zelda is dead even or advantage against Diddy, she should be about equal with Ike when it comes to Diddy Kong.

Of course, Zelda still has Down B like you said, so who really gives a **** if Ike can barely edge her out when the combined force trounces him anyway? Nevertheless, the main advantage he has over Zelda, and I mean the main one, is his aerial priority, while the main advantage Zelda has over him is attack speed (though Ike's Jab actually does come out one frame faster than Zelda's fastest move, so yay for Ike). We could talk about his weight and his jab -> whatever stuff, and we could talk about dtilt -> lightning kick setups and Dsmash, but it doesn't really matter much in the end.

Sure.

If you want to go off of top tier match-ups, however, the only one of them that actually WINS a top tier match-up is Zelda vs. DDD, no matter what our ****ing chart says, because she actually forces him to approach, meaning all the whiners about her approach have nothing to whine about if they lose because they approached. Ike, as far as I know, doesn't win any of his top tier match-ups. All match-ups 3-7 and worse are basically not getting won by the 3 contender. Tournament results could only favor Ike if he wins far more than Zelda and Sheik (though I believe that, not counting Sheiks attempting to use Zelda for an Usmash because they missed their ftilt -> usmash, Zelda is pretty much at the very bottom for popularity). Without Sheik, I'd say they'd have virtually the same results.

I still think Zelda is barely > Ike.

We win against ICs, like I said.

And I did say Zelda had a remote possibility of dropping below Ike. As in, I doubt it's going to happen. I didn't say she should/would drop below Ike, just that it's in the distant realm of possibility.

 

[adumbrodeus]

We win against ICs, like I said.

Really? Is fully spaced fair safe on shield?


Because honestly, that's probably the most important factor in this match-up.


How do you guys figure this cause I automatically am skeptical, but I'm willing to listen if you can justify it.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Most characters don't really have the advantage vs the ICs...Ike, Link? Gimme a break...ICs destroys them lol. If you want to safely beat ICs Snake's your man.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Or you could just run away...they're not very fast on the ground or in the air.

 

[DMG]

Ike does alright vs them, but outright win? IDK.

Yeah I run away from them a lot with Wario. I like that matchup, same with Diddy vs IC's.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Most characters don't really have the advantage vs the ICs...Ike, Link? Gimme a break...ICs destroys them lol. If you want to safely beat ICs Snake's your man.

Honestly, Ike's got a pretty wierd set of advantages, fair has really good range, and honestly doesn't have all that much landing lag (if you fast-fall it), plus it's got good shieldstun and pushback. Some characters he can literally lock up, simply by using fair to hit shield and zone, and ICs don't seem to have the range to deal with it.

So, maybe, I'd like to see ICs and Ike players talk about it.


Link is a no though, his pressure game isn't sufficent.

 

[Zenthewanderer]

Hmmm.... Which begs the question... Why aren't the ICs in top tier? What's keeping them down? Some terrible match-up(s) I'm unaware of? I know they have a high learning curve -often considered among the highest in the game-, but as its been said, learning curve isn't a fair strike against someone. Not one of my mains, but I'm curious.



I know this is quite late, but I completely agree with the people that were talking about how laughable it was that Snake players try to spin him as being 'one of the most difficult characters to learn' and requires so much technical skill to win with. Frankly that's Link/the rest of bottom tier.

 

[mountain_tiger]

The main reason that the ICs aren't top tier is because, once separated, Nana is quite easy to kill, and once she's dead, they're pretty much screwed.

 

[Red Arremer]

The main reason that the ICs aren't top tier is because, once separated, Nana is quite easy to kill, and once she's dead, they're pretty much screwed.

lol, oh mountain tiger, you will always stay uneducated~

The Ice Climbers are not in Top Tier because they do have the potential to, but are not extremely well presented in tournaments (8th or 9th in the rankings thread if I recall correctly), and, additionally to that, they have little top player representation (Lain and Meep, mainly, other people play other characters too).
Their Infinites also are not extremely easy to set up, unlike e.g. Falco's or Dedede's chaingrabs. The Ice Climbers do have one of the worst, if not the worst, grab range in the game, after all.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Really? Is fully spaced fair safe on shield?


Because honestly, that's probably the most important factor in this match-up.


How do you guys figure this cause I automatically am skeptical, but I'm willing to listen if you can justify it.

They can't do anything about a properly spaced Fair. They can't shield grab it, don't have an attack that out ranges it, and their Neutral B doesn't come out fast enough that we can't block/jab it. Jab screws them up badly, jab combos are fun as there are two of them, and it beats out their grab in terms of speed and range. There is also the fact that they both can't perfect shield anything due to Nana shielding a few frames later, which helps to prevent getting shield grabbed if we hit them with a different attack.

We were basically told by the IC boards that it was Ike's advantage. I *think* we went in expecting around neutral.

It's only a 6-4 advantage for obvious reasons.

 

[mountain_tiger]

There is that stuff, too, you're right Spadefox. But the fact that they aren't very good when separated does hinder them at least a bit.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Hmmm.... Which bebs the question... Why aren't the ICs in top tier? What's keeping them down? Some terrible match-up(s) I'm unaware of? I know they have a high learning curve -often considered among the highest in the game-, but as its been said, learning curve isn't a fair strike against someone. Not one of my mains, but I'm curious.

The fact that they're not S-Tier material, is all.

They're just not good enough. Their tools don't warrant it.

You could say something about the chaingrab, but on many characters, good luck getting it.

 

[talkingbeatles]

The Ice Climbers are not in Top Tier because they do have the potential to, but are not extremely well presented in tournaments (8th or 9th in the rankings thread if I recall correctly), and, additionally to that, they have little top player representation (Lain and Meep, mainly, other people play other characters too).
Their Infinites also are not extremely easy to set up, unlike e.g. Falco's or Dedede's chaingrabs. The Ice Climbers do have one of the worst, if not the worst, grab range in the game, after all.

And they're easily separated, and once that is done, easy to kill.
Like the tiger said.

 

[adumbrodeus]

They can't do anything about a properly spaced Fair. They can't shield grab it, don't have an attack that out ranges it, and their Neutral B doesn't come out fast enough that we can't block/jab it. Jab screws them up badly, jab combos are fun as there are two of them, and it beats out their grab in terms of speed and range. There is also the fact that they both can't perfect shield anything due to Nana shielding a few frames later, which helps to prevent getting shield grabbed if we hit them with a different attack.

We were basically told by the IC boards that it was Ike's advantage. I *think* we went in expecting around neutral.

It's only a 6-4 advantage for obvious reasons.

Ok, honestly, I'm surprised, but I understood sort of why it'd be possible because I play Ike a bit.


Jab combo, I figured that was part of it, but fair zoning, of course, that's the exact same thing he does to Zelda, and ICs have the additional disadvantage that they can't perfect shield it or Nana gets hit.

lol, oh mountain tiger, you will always stay uneducated~

The Ice Climbers are not in Top Tier because they do have the potential to, but are not extremely well presented in tournaments (8th or 9th in the rankings thread if I recall correctly), and, additionally to that, they have little top player representation (Lain and Meep, mainly, other people play other characters too).
Their Infinites also are not extremely easy to set up, unlike e.g. Falco's or Dedede's chaingrabs. The Ice Climbers do have one of the worst, if not the worst, grab range in the game, after all.

But the fact that every character in the game has a counter strategy that destroys ICs if successful does help in a lot of match-ups.


And yes, set-up ease.

 

[Lawz.]

Most characters don't really have the advantage vs the ICs...Ike, Link? Gimme a break...ICs destroys them lol. If you want to safely beat ICs Snake's your man.

lolwut the Ice Climbers don't destroy Link at all. where in the hell did you get that?

 

[gm jack]

But the fact that every character in the game has a counter strategy that destroys ICs if successful does help in a lot of match-ups.

As far as I'm aware, Sheik's strategy is use down B, while Ganondorf has nothing.

 

[adumbrodeus]

As far as I'm aware, Sheik's strategy is use down B, while Ganondorf has nothing.

Nah, Ganondorf and Sheik have a counter strategy. They're just bad at it.


If they successfully seperate ICs, and KO Nana, then both win against Popo.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Bowser doesn't like ICs. The only thing he has against them is Up B. >_>

 

[BurningCrusader777]

If they successfully seperate ICs, and KO Nana, then both win against Popo.

I'd honestly like to question which matchup that this doesn't apply in <_<

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'd honestly like to question which matchup that this doesn't apply in <_<

That was the point.


How every character deals with ICs.

1. Start Match
2. ????
3. Nana and Popo are seperated.
4. PROFIT!



My original statement was that "every character has a counter strategy that destroys ICs if successful", and then I refered to the fact that it helps match-ups against them.


So, yea, the point was that it applies to every match-up.

Bowser doesn't like ICs. The only thing he has against them is Up B. >_>

But again....

1. Start Match
2. ????
3. Nana and Popo are seperated.
4. PROFIT!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think you guys underrate the ICs capability to get the grab. Sure their grabrange is craptastic but you're still neve safe against them before you seperate them, which can be ridiculously hard. Make a mistake and your dead - even if you have a stock lead you're not safe at all.
Almost all characters have good tools to avoid grabs but even MK isn't safe against it - and that tells us a lot as MK is generally considered one of the harder characters to grab. And MK does still comparably well against the ICs.

I agree with Reflex though - running away is almost always the best tactic. However, if the ICs outcamp you, you will loose the match-up, guaranteed. The ICs are extremely hard to approach with their desnched Blizzards and they also punish very well (some of their move deal insane damage). Even MK takes huge amounts of damage when trying to avoid the grab (which is imo why the match-up is even) and he can still camp/avoid grabs better than most other characters.

Edit: I'm not arguing them into S-Tier but they should be top of A-tier. They do better against MK than many characters, beat D3 and Falco (slightly) and are probably even Diddy Kong. How can D3 or Marth be better than that?
G&W is higher than IC on the tier list, even though G&W has not one advantageous match-up against the current top tier characters.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I think you guys underrate the ICs capability to get the grab. Sure their grabrange is craptastic but you're still neve safe against them before you seperate them, which can be ridiculously hard. Make a mistake and your dead - even if you have a stock lead you're not safe at all.
Almost all characters have good tools to avoid grabs but even MK isn't safe against it - and that tells us a lot as MK is generally considered one of the harder characters to grab. And MK does still comparably well against the ICs.

I agree with Reflex though - running away is almost always the best tactic. However, if the ICs outcamp you, you will loose the match-up, guaranteed. The ICs are extremely hard to approach with their desnched Blizzards and they also punish very well (some of their move deal insane damage). Even MK takes huge amounts of damage when trying to avoid the grab (which is imo why the match-up is even) and he can still camp/avoid grabs better than most other characters.

MK doesn't have a move that outranges blizzard. Ike has multiple moves that do so. It shouldn't be that hard to accept that someone has the advantage against the ICs even when MK doesn't. Also, Ike's jab has enough hitstun that even if the grab and jab trade hits while hitting Nana, he suddenly has 12 frames more to wiggle out of the grab, + the frames it takes Nana to move back into position. If Nana jumps to get out of the jab hitstun early/stupid AI, that's even MORE time to get out of the grab.

I'm not underrating the IC's, I've played against Hylian's ICs. I know what they can do. Ike jab EASILY separates them, particularly if they don't have an equal amount of damage. Ike simply has the advantage.

 

[Gindler]

Most characters don't really have the advantage vs the ICs...Ike, Link? Gimme a break...ICs destroys them lol. If you want to safely beat ICs Snake's your man.

Bombs my friend. Bombs. Link's like "Nice infinite *******" Boom. I'm free.

The main reason that the ICs aren't top tier is because, once separated, Nana is quite easy to kill, and once she's dead, they're pretty much screwed.

Sopo is still annoying, that Uair of theirs is AMAZING

As far as I'm aware, Sheik's strategy is use down B, while Ganondorf has nothing.

Sheik has needles, and amazing speed.

 

[Zenthewanderer]

Granted, once separated, the ICs completely fall apart. However that's much easier said than done. I imagine lesson 1 for an Ice Climber Mainer is how to avoid just that. I don't tend to face pro ICs a lot (in fact, I believe I've only met a couple that come even close to experts), but doing so can be horrendously difficult depending upon who you're playing as. Similiar to how great Warios don't get grabbed, pro Olimars or Links don't get caught off stage, or Foxes don't fight Pikachu.

I was always under the impression that the ICs were one of the most dreaded match-ups for most people. Is this false?

 

[mountain_tiger]

Granted, once separated, the ICs completely fall apart. However that's much easier said than done. I imagine lesson 1 for an Ice Climber Mainer is how to avoid just that. I don't tend to face pro ICs a lot (in fact, I believe I've only met a couple that come even close to experts), but doing so can be horrendously difficult depending upon who you're playing as. Similiar to how great Warios don't get grabbed, pro Olimars or Links don't get caught off stage, or Foxes don't fight Pikachu.

I was always under the impression that the ICs were one of the most dreaded match-ups for most people. Is this false?

That depends on who you're playing as. For Fox, Sheik, Ganondorf and a couple of others, you'd have to be either extremely dedicated or foolish not to counterpick. With characters like Wario, MK etc., who can easily avoid grabs, it's not such a problem. As a Peach player, I quite like the IC matchup, because you can use floated Dairs to separate them, then other aerials to get Nana away.

 

[rehab]

Wario can be grabbed by the IC's out of dair. I've seen it happen. They're not as easy a match as you might think, for one thing since they can affect some measure of obnoxious zoning on him and for another bite usually isn't an option.