The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Metatitan]

Yoshi is a lot better than samus. The ironic thing is that samus counters yoshi 35:65 xDDDDDD

 

[Paranormalsin]

^^^ That's the funny thing about these threads.

I'd say a majority of the people arguing about tiers, haven't seen a good (insert character here) play.

That was directed to marik..

and yes, i do name search.. : /

with so many characters and too many mk's its hard to always see the character get repped without being destroyed by mk. (mk hate hate i know xD)

EDIT: ****, i thought the boomerang call was a much better idea xD


actually, allow me to reword this. with all of the speculaition there is with mk, even if someone ground breaking, like FOW, were to do something amazing, most peopl shrug it off as luck, until the videos get circulated, then more people start to see potential, then it becomes a race to fame to either it will prosper, or get demolished. it seems to me, a lot of glory is almost "short lived" cause there will be away around the tactics eventually.

or even another way to say, mk's glory right now is shrouding others. those who manage to do better than he is, get seen, much like those who are at the top of their characters name droppig lists

 

[Nanaki]

lucario is poorly reped atm, for sure, and is much as i hate the concept of growing powerful the more i hit you (being an olimar main, i never have to touch you....) but id really like to see someone crash the scene and do extremely well with lucario. more so than id like to see TL become top tier :X

Just wait until Azen starts tearing everyone apart again. I REAAALLLYYY hope he doesn't just go MK because it's easier.

I don't plan on playing with power nor authority when it's not warranted. Nor do I feel it's worth "working things out" with someone whom I cannot foresee any reasonable end to in conversation.

Yoshi is way better than Samus. Actually, every time I think of Samus, I'm simultaneously worried of both overrating and underrating her.

'Way' better? I'm with you on this one, she's hard to get a good bead on. You see all of these positives, but it's just so hard to land a kill unless you save ALL of your 'kill moves' or just rack up damage until they're at 160% or so. When you have to land that many more hits than the opponent, it's hard to win.

Is Yoshi really all that good either, though?

 

[QUIVO]

Wifi shouldn't count. Alot of characters suck online or ******** tactics work due to lag.

Lucario rolls around and spams aura sphere.
Wolf rolls spams lasers
etc etc

 

[Popertop]

Lucario's aren't going to do better.
THeir metagame isn't advancing.

 

[Esca]

I'd like to input that Yoshi isn't that much better than Sams. I play Bwett and Xyro pretty regularly, and they both give me the same amount of trouble. (NONE).

 

[Paranormalsin]

Lucario's aren't going to do better.
THeir metagame isn't advancing as fast as some others.

fixed for what is really appening. talked to a few lucario mains over the past few days actually. theyre trying, trust me

 

[QUIVO]

I'd like to input that Yoshi isn't that much better than Sams. I play Bwett and Xyro pretty regularly, and they both give me the same amount of trouble. (NONE).

Is this when you're playing one character, or several?

You have to also think about the different matchups...

That's kinda like comparing who's harder for Toon Link: Link or Ganon...

Link is even, and Ganon gets *****..

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

ICE CLIMBERS FOR S TIER!!!!!!

Any opinoins on Ness's pontential?
He should be D tier IMO.

 

[Red Arremer]

ICE CLIMBERS FOR S TIER!!!!!!

I'm not extremely sure. The Ice Climbers do have the potential to rise and good tournament results to back it up, but I'm not all that certain that they have the potential to be in S Tier. Furthermore, there's still a lot of controversy about the upper 2 tiers and how they are organized, so we don't even know if the S Tier is going to look the same in the next tier list.

Any opinoins on Ness's pontential?
He should be D tier IMO.

Despite FOW doing a really good job, my respect, I don't think it's a good idea to overexaggerate his victories and blow things out of proportion. Ness is a very solid character, but he is crippled by his grab release shenanigans and his easily gimpable recovery.
If the Ness mains start to step it up, it might cause him to go up, but as for now, his horrible tournament results and glaring flaws are keeping him down.

 

[Matador]

Wifi shouldn't count. Alot of characters suck online or ******** tactics work due to lag.

Lucario rolls around and spams aura sphere.
Wolf rolls spams lasers
etc etc

My sarcasm failz.

Ness will probably rise in the future. He has the tools to overcome his disadvantages and a few traits about him that are high tier quality.

 

[Brinzy]

What exactly are those traits?

 

[QUIVO]

Sarcasm fails on the internet

 

[Collective of Bears]

/sarcasm helps clear things up when in doubt.

 

[Nanaki]

My sarcasm failz.

Ness will probably rise in the future. He has the tools to overcome his disadvantages and a few traits about him that are high tier quality.

He also has some of the biggest glaring weaknesses in the entire game.

Just saying.

 

[Matador]

What exactly are those traits?

His Bthrow is the one that stands out most, but aside from that he has one of the best spikes in the game and an anti-ledgecamping move like PKT. I'm no expert on Ness, but those are some pretty good qualities in a character imo.

Sarcasm fails on the internet

Indeed

Edit @ Scorptile:

He also has some of the biggest glaring weaknesses in the entire game.

Just saying.

Bad recovery and grab releases? Those aren't that bad.

 

[mountain_tiger]

ICE CLIMBERS FOR S TIER!!!!!!

Personally, I think the Ice Climbers are about right where they are. Although one grab = death is definitely worth worrying about, getting that one grab can be quite difficult because their grab range is roughly as long as a baby ant's arm. And if Nana dies, you're ****ed.

Any opinoins on Ness's pontential? He should be D tier IMO.

The lower part of D Tier sounds good IMO. He definitely has potential, but as Spadefox said, his predictable recovery and grab release issues are keeping him down. His ground game is also rather mediocre in terms of range and power.

 

[Paranormalsin]

Edit @ Scorptile:
Bad recovery and grab releases? Those aren't that bad.

not when youre opponent doesnt know that marth is way too good against ness.....

 

[QUIVO]

His bthrow should be saved for the kill and spiking anyone good is difficult.

As for PKT vs ledgecamping, that's ok, but why would anyone ledge camp ness?

None of those really overcome his disadvantages such as grab releases and his terrible recovery

 

[Nanaki]

His Bthrow is the one that stands out most, but aside from that he has one of the best spikes in the game and an anti-ledgecamping move like PKT. I'm no expert on Ness, but those are some pretty good qualities in a character imo.

Indeed

Edit @ Scorptile:
Bad recovery and grab releases? Those aren't that bad.

His recovery is probably the most gimpable out there. Yes, there are ways around it, but if there's a character begging to be gimped, it's Ness.

The grab releases aren't as big of a deal, really. Wario is worse off in that department and does fine.

He's not bad; I personally think he's pretty good. But you can't deny how easy it is to gimp him if he has to PKT2 to recover, especially if you're playing a good offstage character.

 

[Red Arremer]

The grab releases aren't as big of a deal, really. Wario is worse off in that department and does fine.

Haha, that's a - excuse the wording - pretty dumb comparison. Ness is far easier to grab than Wario. Wario is all over the place, and you will hardly ever have the chance to grab him cause he's about baiting and punishing, while Ness does have to approach (despite his projectiles).

Grab releases on Ness are a weakness. The same goes for Wario, but due to Wario's nature most grab releases on him are more situational and kinda hard to get.

 

[Nanaki]

Haha, that's a - excuse the wording - pretty dumb comparison. Ness is far easier to grab than Wario. Wario is all over the place, and you will hardly ever have the chance to grab him cause he's about baiting and punishing, while Ness does have to approach (despite his projectiles).

Grab releases on Ness are a weakness. The same goes for Wario, but due to Wario's nature most grab releases on him are more situational and kinda hard to get.

Maybe not the best comparison, but it's certainly not completely impossible to grab Wario. Extremely hard, yes, but it's possible.

Maybe I'm grossly misinformed, but there aren't nearly as MANY grab releases on Ness as there are on Wario, are there? That's more of the point I was trying to make. Wario may not be easy to grab, but he has to worry about it in more matchups.

Either way, none of it is as important as Ness' terribad recovery.

 

[Matador]

His bthrow should be saved for the kill and spiking anyone good is difficult.

As for PKT vs ledgecamping, that's ok, but why would anyone ledge camp ness?

The only "high tier" thing about his Bthrow is its ability to kill; otherwise it's pretty standard.

And yeah, that's true about spiking. It's still a good tool to have for certain matchups or situations. DK, for example, since his vertical recovery won't help him much in the event that he's spiked.

Same thing in regards to PKT. It's good to have that option. Why wouldn't you camp Ness?

None of those really overcome his disadvantages such as grab releases and his terrible recovery

I agree, but I only listed those things to answer this post:

What exactly are those traits?

Other high tier characters have bad recoveries and Wario has grab releases himself. Of course, Ness ISN'T Marth or Wario and doesn't have the tools that THEY have to make up for it, but they aren't necessarily insurmountable obstacles. Ness can play "don't get grabbed" pretty well, and while his recovery IS bad, he has a few things (pretty nice DJ and downB to stall) to keep him from being constantly ***** offstage.

I'm personally not a big fan of Ness myself, but looking from the outside-in, I can see a few things about the character that can make him pretty formidable compared to some of the characters higher than him like Lucas or Ike (Not Mario though...LOL sorry).

 

[Red Arremer]

Maybe I'm grossly misinformed, but there aren't nearly as MANY grab releases on Ness as there are on Wario, are there? That's more of the point I was trying to make. Wario may not be easy to grab, but he has to worry about it in more matchups

It's pretty much this way:
Wario has to look out who has grab releases on him.
Ness has to look out who has NO grab releases on him. I think like half of the cast has.

 

[Popertop]

Ness Forward Air says hello

 

[mountain_tiger]

Even if Ness had no grab release problems, he'd still have too key flaws:

1) His recovery: As others have stated, Ness' recovery is extremely easy to gimp. Sometimes he can rely on his large second jump to recover, but most of the time he needs to use PK Thunder. Good Ness' are harder to gimp, sure, but it's still pretty easy. Simply jump into the head and take the measly damage and knokcback while Ness dies. Failing that, edgehogging works a treat too.

2) His ground game: Now, Ness' ground game really isn't particularly great overall. His tilts are fast, but they're also very short ranged as well, limiting their usefulness. USmash and FSmash are weak in terms of knockback and damage, while FSmash is slow and fiarly predictable. Regarding his special moves, PK Fire is decent, but PK Flash and his down B (forgot the name, sorry) is only good agaisnt characters with energy projectiles to stop them using them. The only good part is his grab game, and even then it's mainly only his pivot grab and BThrow that are particularly special. IMO, Ness does way better in the air than on the ground.

 

[Nanaki]

I'm personally not a big fan of Ness myself, but looking from the outside-in, I can see a few things about the character that can make him pretty formidable compared to some of the characters higher than him like Lucas or Ike (Not Mario though...LOL sorry).

I was about to ask if you'd changed your mind concerning the great Ness-Mario boards debate, but you read my mind.

Every time I bring up Lucas and Ness, I hear almost nothing positive about Ness being better than Lucas. I personally think he's better, but everyone seems to tend to disagree with me.

It's pretty much this way:
Wario has to look out who has grab releases on him.
Ness has to look out who has NO grab releases on him. I think like half of the cast has.

Apparently I was misinformed. I stand corrected.

 

[.Marik]

Can you even footstool Ness while he's recovering?

I mean, if Ness propels himself into you after getting a boost from the PK Thunder, you're going to be taking some damage, and the knockback doesn't affect him recovering.

I usually just hang onto the edge, or run into the PK Thunder sphere before it hits him. After that, Ness just falls. Piece of cake.

I think Ness is pretty good, but his recovery is undeniably bad and there really isn't a way around that.

 

[Matador]

Even if Ness had no grab release problems, he'd still have two key flaws:

1) His recovery: As others have stated, Ness' recovery is extremely easy to gimp. Sometimes he can rely on his large second jump to recover, but most of the time he needs to use PK Thunder. Good Ness' are harder to gimp, sure, but it's still pretty easy. Simply jump into the head and take the measly damage and knokcback while Ness dies. Failing that, edgehogging works a treat too.

Other way around. Ness players generally realize that their PKT2 as a recovery is pretty bad, so everytime I bring this up in matchup discussion, they refute with "our DJ airdodge/ DJ -> Fair will usually get us to the stage. We barely ever even need to upB" or something along those lines. Smart players can generally work around things like bad recoveries as long as they have a few tools to remain unpredictable and their recovery isn't piss-poor. Look at Olimar's recovery.

I REALLY don't know enough about his ground game to speak on it. I personally think it's pretty bad as well, but I really don't know a Ness that spends much time on the ground other than to grab. I suppose that's what makes matchups like Marth so bad...because he wins in the air which forces Ness to stay grounded, where he also can't contend.

I was about to ask if you'd changed your mind concerning the great Ness-Mario boards debate, but you read my mind.

My Mario brethren would kill me...

Ness seems to have more potential imo. That's just me, I don't know enough about Lucas to really support why. He just seems to have the better tools.

 

[Paranormalsin]

I mean, if Ness propels himself into you after getting a boost from the PK Thunder, you're going to be taking some damage, and the knockback doesn't affect him recovering.

I think Ness is pretty good, but his recovery is undeniably bad and there really isn't a way around that.

doesnt ness lose range on his up b if he hits someone?

 

[.Marik]

doesnt ness lose range on his up b if he hits someone?

Ahh... actually, I think he does lose range... but not that much, and the knockback of the recovery sends opponents quite a distance depending on the damage, enough time for Ness to grab the ledge.

It's crazy damage too, isn't it? If he hits you midway through his PK Thunder recovery, it's like a good 20+% attack and it's pretty strong.

Low damage, I can understand. But if you simply block the sphere so he can't recover, you'll get less damage. At the same time though, it's probably harder to access. But, if all else fails... take pain for a good cause, lol.

Man I need to play more Ness players.

 

[Paranormalsin]

Ahh... actually, I think he does lose range... but not that much, and the knockback of the recovery sends opponents quite a distance depending on the damage, enough time for Ness to grab the ledge.

It's crazy damage too, isn't it? If he hits you midway through his PK Thunder recovery, it's like a good 20% attack and it's pretty strong.

Low damage, I can understand. If all else fails... take pain for a good cause, lol.

Man I need to play more Ness players.

i know smash64 plays him and thats why i think that he loses range cause i get hit by it, and ive seen it mentioned somewhere i think by OS, but anyway, i do need to play him more, i have a mm against him this weekend, ill try and record them for future knowledge :D

 

[Nanaki]

Ahh... actually, I think he does lose range... but not that much, and the knockback of the recovery sends opponents quite a distance depending on the damage, enough time for Ness to grab the ledge.

It's crazy damage too, isn't it? If he hits you midway through his PK Thunder recovery, it's like a good 20% attack and it's pretty strong.

Low damage, I can understand. But if you simply block the sphere so he can't recover, you'll get less damage, but at the same time, it's probably harder to access. But, if all else fails... take pain for a good cause, lol.

Man I need to play more Ness players.

PKT2 (when he hits himself with PKT) is crazy strong. I'm not sure on the damage, but it can KO light characters in the 60% range, I think. It's not super easy to hit with, though, especially on a good opponent.

Best to avoid being hit by an electrocuted Ness/Lucas, in general.

 

[Neon Ness]

doesnt ness lose range on his up b if he hits someone?

Yeah, it gets cut almost in half. So technically if you're at low enough % to survive a PKT2, you could just take the hit so Ness wouldn't make it far enough to reach the edge. You could even throw some projectiles to cut his distance.

I could write a book on the number of ways to gimp Ness' recovery.

 

[Levitas]

scotu used to go for getting hit by it and teching on the stage as a gimp against me.

 

[M.K]

It's pretty much this way:
Wario has to look out who has grab releases on him.
Ness has to look out who has NO grab releases on him. I think like half of the cast has.

....Only three characters have infinite grab releases on Ness:

-Charizard
-Marth
-...someone else >_>

 

[Nanaki]

scotu used to go for getting hit by it and teching on the stage as a gimp against me.

That sounds pretty risky, but very fun.

Am I the only one who thinks Luigi could pass Peach? He kills at like, half of the percent she does. The D3 infinite is escapable with mashing until around kill percents anyway, isn't it?

::Waits for Dark.pch to go Super Saiyan at the injustice of my claim::

 

[deepseadiva]

Luigi could, if he didn't faint at the sight of a shield.

 

[Red Arremer]

....Only three characters have infinite grab releases on Ness:

-Charizard
-Marth
-...someone else >_>

I was speaking of general grab releases, not only Infinites.

 

[cheetacuz007]

i just noticed that sheik passed zelda, wierd...