The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Ryusuta]

Hardly so. Charizard's is comparable to Marth's in the category of range, has SA, but less speed. He's got 2 pretty good jumps and a really slow glide to help stall to wait for an opponent to either roll early, wait for their invincibility frames to wear off, or to find a good opening to use his upb. He's also got good options for covering himself as he recovers. His fair, bair, and upair are pretty good at this.

DDD. He's got 5 or 6 bad jumps, a really fast falling speed- so fast and jumps so bad that he can't really cover himself with aerials while he recovers. If he does, he'll fall too quickly and he'll be forced to use his laggy, punishable upb. For this reason, any character can just sit on the ledge and wait till he uses his upb or gets up to the stage via jumps. And whenever he uses upb, a lot of characters can just knock him back offstage so he'll have to use it again... and again... so on and so forth.

You might actually be right about that, in retrospect. You do raise some very good points. Just the same, though, I think we can both agree that Charizard's recovery isn't fantastic, which was the original point.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Well, yeah, Charizard doesn't have a fantastic recovery, but it's still pretty good. On a scale of 1-10, I'd rate it 7 or 8.

 

[DanGR]

You might actually be right about that, in retrospect. You do raise some very good points. Just the same, though, I think we can both agree that Charizard's recovery isn't fantastic, which was the original point.

Neither are really great. I can agree there. I just think that DDD's is really overrated. Snake has a much better recovery imo. People don't look at what really happens in matches. They see that he's got 5 or 6 jumps, and discount how far they actually go both horizontally and vertically. He can't even deter someone from getting off the ledge with an attack or he'll fall to his doom.

 

[Ryusuta]

****...

Bubble Busted...

It's all good, man. No hard feelings. I've had worse things said about me when I go out on a limb and make bold statements (particularly online).

I also don't want to sit here and say that EVERYTHING I've predicted came true. I totally admit I was flat-out dead wrong about Wario, for instance. I thought the grab release stuff would be the death of him, but it totally wasn't.

Just be a little more careful in the future to address the points being made rather than the person making them, okay?

Well, yeah, Charizard doesn't have a fantastic recovery, but it's still pretty good. On a scale of 1-10, I'd rate it 7 or 8.

I'd say that's a bit much. Remember that my concession was more an admission that DeDeDe's recovery is overrated. However, remember that not all gimps involve chasing, and Charizard's recovery tends to be predictable and have exploitable holes, particularly against characters like Falco (who is a pretty bad match for him anyway, but still). Charizard can be hurt really badly by people that predict his return path.

I'd consider giving it a 6... MAYBE a 7 at best.

 

[Red Arremer]

Neither are really great. I can agree there. I just think that DDD's is really overrated. Snake has a much better recovery imo. People don't look at what really happens in matches. They see that he's got 5 or 6 jumps, and discount how far they actually go both horizontally and vertically. He can't even deter someone from getting off the ledge with an attack or he'll fall to his doom.

I still think that Dedede has the capability to survive extremely long. He's got one of the best momentum cancels and is heavy like hell. His recovery is decent, but it's definitely not awful.

 

[DanGR]

I still think that Dedede has the capability to survive extremely long. He's got one of the best momentum cancels and is heavy like hell. His recovery is decent, but it's definitely not awful.

First off, surviving=/= recovery. If we're talking about their survivability, then yeah, DDD is one of the best at it. So is Bowser... except when it comes to recovery. (Not to say his is as terrible as many claim it is. I agree with the majority of Bowser mains in that respect.)

Anyways, yeah. It's not bad at all. I'd say it's above average. I just think it's a crime to say it's up there near Pikachu, Samus, and Wario, and that's it's much better than Charizard's.

 

[Nanaki]

I want to hear more Ness and Lucas banter. Argue about them MOAR!
To instigate:
Did someone really say Lucas' dair is better? Maybe damage racking-wise, but Ness' dair is probably the best spike in the game.

 

[Ryusuta]

I want to hear more Ness and Lucas banter. Argue about them MOAR!
To instigate:
Did someone really say Lucas' dair is better? Maybe damage racking-wise, but Ness' dair is probably the best spike in the game.

You ARE a good instigator!

Lucas' is a semi-spike, and in addition to that, it has better frame data and much more practical on-stage uses. This isn't like Melee where spiking is really commonplace.

I mean, in terms of raw "knockback" power, Ness' down air is better than Lucas'. If we were just going off of that, though, King DeDeDe would have one of the best forward smashes in history.

 

[Cacti]

It's hard to compare them; they both do completely different things. Lucas' is more of a utility that can be used for damage racking and getting the opponent onto the ground, while Ness' is for KO'ing: the sweetspot is great for spiking, and the sourspot is still very good at KO'ing horizontally.

 

[SyOn]

Lucas' dair is kinda cool.

Dair > D-tilt lock > F-Smash.

 

[Ryusuta]

It's hard to compare them; they both do completely different things. Lucas' is more of a utility that can be used for damage racking and getting the opponent onto the ground, while Ness' is for KO'ing: the sweetspot is great for spiking, and the sourspot is still very good at KO'ing horizontally.

This is actually a really good point, too. They're really completely different moves used for completely different things.

In my opinion, I would just say that Lucas' down air is more versatile and practical in more situations... unless you're on Pirate Ship.

 

[Nanaki]

You ARE a good instigator!

Lucas' is a semi-spike, and in addition to that, it has better frame data and much more practical on-stage uses. This isn't like Melee where spiking is really commonplace.

I mean, in terms of raw "knockback" power, Ness' down air is better than Lucas'. If we were just going off of that, though, King DeDeDe would have one of the best forward smashes in history.

I demand moar argument than what has been presented. I are hungry for discussion!

Seriously, we got no SBR discussion about Ness and Lucas (mostly because they don't matter - U C WHAT I DID THAR!??) in the character discussion thread, let's seem some here.

Lucas just feels like a mass of slightly altered Ness moves congealed together into a mass that doesn't function effectively. Some of his moves are good, but he doesn't flow the way Ness does. He sure does recover a lot better, though.

Whose PKT2 is better?

 

[MysticKenji]

Whose PKT2 is better?

Lucas for recovery, Ness for KO power

PKT2 kills don't happen that often with either though >_>

 

[Nanaki]

Lucas for recovery, Ness for KO power

PKT2 kills don't happen that often with either though >_>

Is it that Lucas' is better for recovery, or just more idiot-proof? I only say that because plenty of Ness mains will claim that if you're smart, your PKT won't get you gimped, as it will hide behind/under you until it hits you. That, and his moves faster.

That sounds suspiciously like every character board for someone with a bad recovery though. "It's not bad if the player doesn't suck".

 

[SyOn]

ness can't recover.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=213417

lol

 

[Cacti]

Lucas' PKT2 travels farther, so it is better for recovery.

 

[Nanaki]

ness can't recover.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=213417

lol

lol, I've read that entire thread before. Mario mains are too awesome.

I'm going to stop posting for awhile now. Pizza is warm.

 

[Brinzy]

Yeah, Lucas's recovery is pretty much da bomb, and Ness's bombs. Fortunately, good DI and being maybe 20 seconds of a match alleviates this for Ness a bit.

I don't know enough about Lucas to fairly compare the two. I will say, however, that they're probably really meant to be side by side, and not because "lol they're similar" but because they're equally bad good.

 

[tocador]

Lucas has ta powar and ta recovery, while ness has.... you know..... the jumps....

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

@PhantomX:

Uair beats Wario's Dair. Bair trades hits.

Uair and bair both beat the clap, fair, and bair, I believe.

Also, we abuse usmash because it's awesome, not because our aerial game can't compete. Faded was the only one who said not to attack you in the air, and that's because he didn't understand that uair beats your dair.

Uair > almost every aerial in the game. The only one I wouldn't challenge is Lucario's dair when he's over 100% and that's only because of range.

Edit: All of her moves have disjointed hitboxes in the air so properly spaced they will beat everything you have. (Except dair which doesn't count because it's lame ; nair will beat some but it has "special attack priority" so it can't beat others) Fair, Bair, and Uair all have disjointed hitboxes and insane priority.

 

[zajohnson]

I'll take Lucario as B-tier....sooo close to A, waaaahh....

 

[TheReflexWonder]

THIS STIR-FRY IS DELICIOUS.

Also, Captain Falcon needs better representation. I think he has a decent amount of potential that has yet to be seen.

 

[Dark.Pch]

THIS STIR-FRY IS DELICIOUS.

Also, Captain Falcon needs better representation. I think he has a decent amount of potential that has yet to be seen.

Now you know how I feel.

 

[MRbloke67]

I like this new tier list

Ive always felt Captain Faclon wans NOT the worst character in brawl

Also LOVIN the Wario rep.

 

[Nanaki]

THIS STIR-FRY IS DELICIOUS.

Also, Captain Falcon needs better representation. I think he has a decent amount of potential that has yet to be seen.

But lack of hitstun means he sucks, duh!

Seriously, though, the only way he's going to rise is if someone who's actually good tries to use him. Didn't G-Reg try for awhile and just give up?

I don't doubt that he's good enough to make a bit of a splash, but I doubt any pros (besides maybe yourself, you seem to be able to place/win with about anyone) will be willing to risk a tournament placing to show his potential.

Didn't you win a small tournament or two with him?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Now you know how I feel.

About the stir-fry or the character representation? Either way, I'm not particularly adamant about it; it's just my personal feelings based on my experience with the game.

 

[Nanaki]

About the stir-fry or the character representation? Either way, I'm not particularly adamant about it; it's just my personal feelings based on my experience with the game.

I'm going to have to ask what's in the stir fry, since nobody else is biting (no pun intended).

If there aren't red peppers, you're in trouble.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

fact

quoting yourself is extremely homo.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

fact

quoting yourself is extremely homo.

Well, **** on my ****. At least I only planned to have it up for a little while.

I'm going to have to ask what's in the stir fry, since nobody else is biting (no pun intended).

If there aren't red peppers, you're in trouble.

I forget. It's gone now. But there were no red peppers, so I guess I'm screwed.

 

[Nanaki]

I forget. It's gone now. But there were no red peppers, so I guess I'm screwed.

E-RAAAAGGEEE!!!

Serious tier list question: Kirby is waaaay lower in tourney rankings than in the tier list. Is this just Chu's influence, or do people think he's super under-represented?

 

[Dark.Pch]

About the stir-fry or the character representation? Either way, I'm not particularly adamant about it; it's just my personal feelings based on my experience with the game.

The second Part. I don't even know what you mean by that stir-fry part. And the same feelings you have with Falcon I got with my character. I don't care if I am not some howshot Peach like the others. I don't care if I get ganged up 100 to 1 in here about Peach. I don't care who likes to sound funny and show of with dumb post to me about it. With MY experience, tournaments, what I seen, what I been through and all this stuff I learned about my characters through hours of studying her, Thats how I feel.

And I am not afriead to talk down to anybody about it, Wether a mod or SBR members. Just cause they are in there does not mean I have to stand down about how I feel is right or wrong. if I feel something and got something to say, Then I'll say it. And Does not matter if I am not a member of the SBR. I got the right to share/speak my thoughts, what I know and poinions on the matter, wether people like it or not. That's just how I am. And no tournament status or famous person on the boards/pro player is gonna make me stay quite cause I feel I can speak my mind due to who they are. That does not get people anywhere.

But yea thats about it, and I still stand on what I say with Peach.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

E-RAAAAGGEEE!!!

Serious tier list question: Kirby is waaaay lower in tourney rankings than in the tier list. Is this just Chu's influence, or do people think he's super under-represented?

I touched on it earlier in the thread but characters like Kirby and ROB are only still high because of vague notions of a character's past performance.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Serious tier list question: Kirby is waaaay lower in tourney rankings than in the tier list. Is this just Chu's influence, or do people think he's super under-represented?

It's probably some combination of the two, but I don't think he's a very good character, myself. I'm thinking that Chu's placings and outdated tournament results make people overrate him. I figure when people learn how to properly fight Kirby, he'll be lowered.

 

[Zankoku]

It doesn't sound very fair to demand that you both be able to express your opinion (which is fine) and outright dismiss everyone else's opinions (which is not).

But the world is also not fair because it is not a sphere. : (

 

[TheReflexWonder]

And I am not afriead to talk down to anybody about it, Wether a mod or SBR members. Just cause they are in there does not mean I have to stand down about how I feel is right or wrong. if I feel something and got something to say, Then I'll say it. And Does not matter if I am not a member of the SBR. I got the right to share/speak my thoughts, what I know and poinions on the matter, wether people like it or not. That's just how I am. And no tournament status or famous person on the boards/pro player is gonna make me stay quite cause I feel I can speak my mind due to who they are. That does not get people anywhere.

But yea thats about it, and I still stand on what I say with Peach.

The problem is that you do not treat others' opinions as equals. You even specifically say "talk down to" to express how you say it. No one wants to listen to an elitist, and no one cares to listen to an elitist that hasn't proven himself/herself.

 

[Dark.Pch]

The problem is that you do not treat others' opinions as equals. You even specifically say "talk down to" to express how you say it. No one wants to listen to an elitist, and no one cares to listen to an elitist that hasn't proven himself/herself.

Ok then, lets try this your way, explain how I don't treat others opinions as equals?

 

[Deleted member]

It's probably some combination of the two, but I don't think he's a very good character, myself. I'm thinking that Chu's placings and outdated tournament results make people overrate him. I figure when people learn how to properly fight Kirby, he'll be lowered.

Kirbys sorta good. Like, he is a little predictable as a character like Game and Watch, but he can play really gay against lots of characters and he punishes nicely. Bair camping still screws a lot of the cast if done well.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Ok then, lets try this your way, explain how I don't treat others opinions as equals?

Your mentality and words are entirely based off of the concept of, "I'm right, you're wrong." As such, your views indisputably have more merit than a person who disagrees with you (at least, that's how it comes off).

Hence, "talking down to". Condescending words don't help make a point.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Your mentality and words are entirely based off of the concept of, "I'm right, you're wrong." As such, your views indisputably have more merit than a person who disagrees with you (at least, that's how it comes off).

Hence, "talking down to". Condescending words don't help make a point.

That's the problem then (what is in red), also why I had to sig my quote for one thing. Never talk I had to explain myself more than usual.

When I say talking down I mean am not afraid to tell you about something that I think you are wrong about cause of your status in the smash community or cause you are in the SBR.

And my words or mentality of I'm right/wrong part is mostly on general info on my character. Then were said about my character that is not right and I have to correct people on it many times.

As I said before I am a soulless person on the net. So people will always assume how I am and come off. Same time this is who I am and how I am on the net. So you can't just say I am this and that when i don't even show it. I just post as if I was something in my note book, Not using "lol" or faces. I'm just writing.

 

[Zankoku]

I have no idea what "lol" or faces have to do with anything, but textual condescension doesn't require explicit emotion.