The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Red Arremer]

I have to disagree the worth in a projectile isn't how spammy it is or how fast it can be used. However when it's used and it makes your opponent commit to X or Y outcome. That's where the value of the move is it IMO. A lot of people get caught up on the speed or a move or how spammable a move is. Thus the whole MK is broken rants he's easy to play his moves are spammable. I have yet to see a ban snake thread or snake is broke or snake breaks the CP system. It's funny a lot of times certain things within the smash community gets a pass like IC CG however other things like MK's nado which is hype is bemoaned and cried about. Back to my point though Din's fire is a good projectile gotta know how to use it. Don't go into a match thinking you'll be able to camp with DF.

Din's Fire is probably the worst projectile in the game.
Yes, it gots it uses. Yes, it can be helpful at times. But most of the time, you'll not be using it.

Reasons:
- It's telegraphed and time-delayed.
- It's easily dodged/powershielded (if you know the timing).
- It puts Zelda into helpless state.
- It's incredibly punishable.
- It has limited range.

The only good things this projectile has is that the hitbox is rather big and that it's more or less controlable. But so is Snake's Nikita and you see how many Snakes use their Side B.

 

[Zankoku]

So once again I ask you how is a move that limits your opponents options forces them into predictable response a bad move?

Oh, I dunno, maybe because there are so many other projectiles that do it better, and aren't one-trick ponies at that? And because forcing your opponent into a predictable response isn't all that great if they have an option that isn't actually punishable because Zelda is slow?

 

[mountain_tiger]

I really would like to hear more about the "mindgame purposes".

Imagine the following scenario. You are Zelda, and your opponent is off-stage. You send out Din's. Your opponent will airdodge or perform an aerial to cancel out Din's, However, if Zelda predicts this, she can send Din's slightly behind them so that it hits them during the cooldown, since the range of the explosion is surprisingly huge.

It's worth trying when you're certain that they're going to get back to the stage anyway.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Din's Fire PK Flash is probably the worst projectile in the game.
Yes, it gots it uses. Yes, it can be helpful at times. But most of the time, you'll not be using it.

Reasons:
- It's telegraphed and time-delayed.
- It's easily dodged/powershielded (if you know the timing).
- It puts Zelda Ness into helpless state.
- It's incredibly punishable.
- It has limited range.

The only good things this projectile has is that the hitbox is rather big and that it's more or less controlable. But so is Snake's Nikita and you see how many Snakes use their Side B.

A weird parallel I noticed.

 

[phi1ny3]

@Almost:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAaWvVFERVA#t=2m58s

But in all seriousness, Zelda's Din is pretty bad. If you're looking for a response, do one you can take advantage of. even Mario and Luigi have a better application for their fireballs, which some consider pretty bad <_<;

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Din's Fire is probably the worst projectile in the game.
Yes, it gots it uses. Yes, it can be helpful at times. But most of the time, you'll not be using it.

Reasons:
- It's telegraphed and time-delayed.
- It's easily dodged/powershielded (if you know the timing).
- It puts Zelda into helpless state.
- It's incredibly punishable.
- It has limited range.

The only good things this projectile has is that the hitbox is rather big and that it's more or less controlable. But so is Snake's Nikita and you see how many Snakes use their Side B.

I don't think the move needs to be able to be used in all situations in order to be good. There isn't a move like that in the game. I've already stated the negatives about Din's fire. However, what I'm trying to get across is that me as the Zelda player can cover your response to Din's fire and appropriately punished your predictable responses.

Oh, I dunno, maybe because there are so many other projectiles that do it better, and aren't one-trick ponies at that? And because forcing your opponent into a predictable response isn't all that great if they have an option that isn't actually punishable because Zelda is slow?

Yes it depends on the opponents response their position and where Zelda is at. Take all that into account. So if we account for all of this use the move after let's say a dsmash the effectiveness of the move is increased. IF we use it after lets say a utilt and we force them into a position where they either need to air dodge or use an attack. Then we are still able to respond. I don't see how the move is bad. If I'm standing on stage and you're standing on stage I can use the move very sparringly and the usefulness of the move because lowered. But I already said I'm not using din's in that situation nor am I suggesting it be used that way.

 

[Zankoku]

Let me get this straight. You have approximately one situation in which Din's Fire is useful in the way you described, and it's relatively useless in almost all other situations, therefore Din's Fire is a good projectile?

 

[Dark Shifter]

any news when new tier list is coming?

 

[Red Arremer]

I think you don't understand the meaning of "useful".

I'll explain it to you. If you look at the word, you might see that it looks like "full of uses". Din's Fire does have a few situations in which it might come in handy. This kind of move is called "situational". So you sometimes will be able to use it. This sometimes does not occur often, though.

The usefulness of a move is determined by how many situations you can use this move in. A useful move is a move that is vital to a character's gameplay (usually all recovery moves, Samus' ZAir, Luigi's NAir), a move you can use without any fear of getting punished hard (say, Kirby's BAir or MK's DSmash; those usually go hand in hand with the first kind of move, though), or allows them to overcome situations that might not be THAT common, but still occur, for instance particular matchups (Sheik's Chain). Din's Fire does have very very little situations in which it is good to use it. As said, those situations exist, but they are rare. So, it's not as useless as Ganondorf's UpB or Mario's DTilt, but it is kinda close.

any news when new tier list is coming?

It won't be coming sooner if people ask daily.

 

[Zankoku]

Ganondorf's Up+B is plenty useful. How many other moves does he have that let him recover upward? And since it's Ganondorf, you can be certain that he'll be recovering a lot.

 

[phi1ny3]

Are we thereIs it out yet?

 

[Red Arremer]

Ganondorf's Up+B is plenty useful. How many other moves does he have that let him recover upward? And since it's Ganondorf, you can be certain that he'll be recovering a lot.

Right. I meant offensively as in using it to attack. lol

 

[Dark Shifter]

sorry i meant more like, its being worked on si? and so, how much left is there to do?

 

[Zankoku]

Oh, only about all of it.

 

[Red Arremer]

Ankoku ninja'd me with classiness. I just doesn't know.

This post was made exactly 23 hours ago:

You're wrong.
We aren't working on a new tierlist yet, but not because of Pound 4.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Hey guys when's the new tier list coming out?

/jk

 

[volume]

hey guys whens tha new tier list coming out!? how anoying =/ it will when it does... when ever that is

 

[Nidtendofreak]

A weird parallel I noticed.

At least PK Flash KOs when it hits. Din's Fire and PK Freeze don't do that. Hence both of them being worse then PK Flash. :D

And Snake's Missile thingy has more control, and doesn't leave you in a helpless state (it just takes forever to do anything else), so it's better as well.

I've only ever seen Din's Fire used well once, and it was because I put myself in that situation. Low % at Pirate Ship, I was in the water. Din's Fire hit me, I fell back in the water. I popped back up, another Din's in the face because I could do anything. I got chained by about 4 Din's Fires before I could get out of the way. But that was just the right % and just the right distance away.

The only projectiles I'd consider for being worse (As in: debate about it, not saying they are) are Luigi's fireballs and Ivy's Razor Leaf. Maybe PK Freeze but I doubt it.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'll tell you guys when the near tierlist will come out (cause I got insider info).

Spoiler

Sometime between now and 400,000,000 years in the future. Around the time the SBR announces they put it out. So, STOP ASKING!

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I think every time someone asks when the next tier list is coming out, it should get delayed a week. :D

That would shut up everyone quickly.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I think every time someone asks when the next tier list is coming out, it should get delayed a week. :D

That would shut up everyone quickly.

Except people don't read the thread, so people will ask, and ask, and ask.

Spoiler

It'll make my timeline false, don't do it SBR!

Infractions for spam?

 

[mountain_tiger]

Except people don't read the thread, so people will ask, and ask, and ask.

Spoiler

It'll make my timeline false, don't do it SBR!

Infractions for spam?

Isn't infracting them for that sort of thing just a tad bit harsh?

If a post is annoying you, then simply ignore it. That's one of the good qualities of the internet.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Isn't infracting them for that sort of thing just a tad bit harsh?

This site doesn't infract nearly enough tbqh. I can think of several people that should have been banned a long time ago. *shrugs*

Infracting them to get them to stop? Sounds good to me.

 

[Matador]

even Mario ha(s) a better application for their fireballs, which some consider pretty bad <_<;

"Some" are pretty stupid >_>

It'd be awesome if we had a date for the tier list though. Then there'd be no reason to ask...

 

[Kewkky]

You and the other assuming my tone and how my emoticon is over the net, thats your fault. Not mine. So don't pinn me for that.

Dark.Pch, in all truthfulness, it's YOUR fault people assume you're pissed. You're conscious that it has happened many times, people thinking your angry then telling you to calm down or correcting themselves because of that. YOU should learn how to fix your posts so that you sound at peace when you are at peace, and YOU should be the one fixing YOUR problems, not them. Is it their fault that you're always coming off as hostile and cursing and pissed off to everyone? As far as I know, YOUR personality and YOUR way of writing is what makes them believe so. Are you pissed at times because no one pays attention to what you say? Well LEARN TO COME OFF NICER and people won't feel threatened whenever you reply to them.

Stop being so ignorant. And by ignorant, I mean closing yourself off to what everyone says and only opening your needle-thing window of curiosity to those who decide to deal with your lack of respect.

I'll be honest with you here... I'm TIRED of coming in here to read something instructive and seeing you spew crap about Peach over and over again. As if the last 1000 times never went through, eh? I'm so tired of going back 5 pages to read all the replies, only to find that a page's worth of replies are yours, and 3 pages' replies are people telling you to calm down or trying (in vain) to change your point of view! Also, seeing people saying "sorry" then you saying "I'm not pissed" is a waste of my time to read whenever I come in here when a new reply is typed in. The immature one here is YOU, and no one else, and your own lack of empathy is to blame. Act like an adult and consider others instead of only yourself!

And, does it not seem weird how you preach that the SBR is full if people who know nothing as well as insult your intelect? You should keep this in mind if you hope to influence their decisions on the SBR Tierlists' positions, as well as the way Peach is viewed competitively. Whenever someone here brings up a Peach-related post where they're questioning your knowledge IN A NON-AGGRESSIVE MANNER, you insult their lack of Peach knowledge and pin the blame somehow on any SBR members that has even only mentioned the name of Peach recently. Nice of you to rep your character and do well, I'm happy for you! But I'm unhappy with how you handle your tongue in the topics, and how you don't even think about why people keep thinking you're pissed due to the way you write your rebuttals.


Geez. If I don't say anything, no one ever will. And I wrote it here, because I'm TIRED of coming in here just to see the good posts flooded out by an angry Dark.PCH re-preaching Peach's strong and weak points, and how she goes even with Snake. Yes, this is a tierlist discussion, but come on, man, it's been TOO MANY POSTS of the same thing! Your message is already across! Now just do those **** Snake MMs you keep talking about. No amount of words will make them change their minds, as also no amount of words will make you think Kirby has a small advantage on Peach unless I show it to you personally.


Oh, and I don't want to put you on ignore because I KNOW you're a smart person, and some of the things you say are enjoyable to read, as well as instructive.

 

[phi1ny3]

"Some" are pretty stupid >_>

It'd be awesome if we had a date for the tier list though. Then there'd be no reason to ask...

lol yeah it's a pretty good one, especially when you're about to storm down on the opponent.

 

[gantrain05]

i don't think there is even any other smasher at the moment who is close to ally, so saying that because peaches didn't beat him is lol.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Deva almost beast M2K once, but I'm not going to change Link vs MK from a 30:70 just for that.

 

[Red Arremer]

It'd be awesome if we had a date for the tier list though. Then there'd be no reason to ask...

Why do people always want something noone can give them?
There is no date, not even a prediction of a date, yet. You have all the information we have, as well.

You will be informed as soon as there is information about it.

 

[Meru.]

I feel Ness hasn't been discussed so much. And personally, I don't see why he's low. So... Why is Ness so low. He should be at least top of E tier, I would think.

 

[Ripple]

I feel Ness hasn't been discussed so much. And personally, I don't see why he's low. So... Why is Ness so low. He should be at least top of E tier, I would think.

because when someone grabs him the opponent pretty much gets a free hit.

and because ness' ground game is bad except for PK fire and grab. he can't really land kill moves either

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Lucas should move down several spots, and Ness > Mario.

There ya go. >_>

 

[swordgard]

Genius, the skill level of a tourny matters. Not how many people were in a darn bulding. Genesis Had more comp then SNES cause of the numbet of skilled level players there. not the numbet of people in a building. Numbers don't meanm anything.

And you wanna play this game with me? Ok.

Say relfex, to be honest, your placing at SNES does not mean **** cause the people at the tourny hard play PT. NOne knew the match up. So you got off easy. Sorry dude, except the truth. You getting 7th at SNES means nothing. See/ I can play this game too. But people won't say nothing to Relfex cause "he is relfex and a SBR member, he is the man and knows alot"

Aslo, one bad tourny from me, out of the others I did well at. So you really gonna use that logic against me dude? Seriously? And there is more than just one decent placing. Again at Inui's tourny, a state with gay game play I get 13th out of 65 (or was it 67?) Barley losing to Inui in winners, and samw with atomsk in losers. Then I play in NYC, which the comp here is no joke along with NJ people in there, I get 9th and later on again, 7th. it'd not just one tourny me doing well at. it's mutiple, with a regional included.

And then you got the nerve to sit her and tell me this? That this means nothing? I'm gonna tell all the people that I beat and hard a hard time beating a Peach that they freaking suck. You just gave me the right to do so.

Peach is a good character but hard to be good and win with. just like Snake. Snake is top tier but not easy to win with cause of it. Learn something about comeptitive smash for a change. Cause right now, that purple name does not suit you. You make it look bad.

I got those placings and wins cause I earned them. I got no free rides. I worked for what I got. Don't sit here and tell me otherwise.

Wow, way to strawman again. I never said peach sucked, stop saying I believe so, that is purely strawmanning. She is currently B tier, placing 13th in a national-ish tourney is not enough to get her to where you are claiming her to be. Reflex on the other hand got higher using a D tier character, which would indeed justify making PT go higher. I never said you had a free ride, I never said you were not good, I never stated any of this. YOU assummed I was attacking your skill level, which I am not.

Facts:
You place decently well with peach most of the time.
You got 13th at one national-ish level tourney.
You failed at viridian city.


That seems to me like something a B-tier character would be able to do, and she is borderline from being B tier, but not top of B tier yet.

Also, I don't judge post by whom they are posted but rather by their content. You have however proven over and over that you seem to believe everything is a personal attack against you and it gives you a bad reputation, nevertheless, your argument was worth hearing. All I am saying is that this placing is not sufficient to bring peach to where you claim her to be, she is B tier, and your placing seems reasonnable for B tier character. Now, if your character was in D tier, I would have most probably taken this argument as more justified, but frankly peach, with your current placing does not justify getting much higher.

Either way, please refrain from calling people idiot/insulting them/making offensive comments when the other person did not. Also please stop taking any argument into a personal fight like this. Alot of C tier characters are good, you are assuming I think she sucks. Stop being so defensive for one second and just answer in a non-suggestive manner, it will help most people take your argument more seriously.


If you got anything to add, do so, I will be back later >.<

 

[phi1ny3]

i don't think there is even any other smasher at the moment who is close to ally, so saying that because peaches didn't beat him is lol.

I hope you mean for Snake.


Also, Ally has been known to flub up some MUs. I'm not saying he's not bad at them, but there are MUs where people can say Ally could play/learn better from.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Isn't infracting them for that sort of thing just a tad bit harsh?

If a post is annoying you, then simply ignore it. That's one of the good qualities of the internet.

Tell that to the ***** in the "In memory of ----" thread. I'm sure this site infracts more ppl than necessary.

Edit: I'm sure if more ppl placed w/ lucas like ness (FOW) then we'd realize he's good where he is...

 

[Javon89]

Ness > Mario.

There ya go. >_>

Explain please.

 

[.Marik]

I also disagree with Niddo.

And please don't use F.O.W. as a prime example. The dude is just really good, Ness as a whole is shut down easier and has more overall mechanic flaws.

Mario has a lot more options and varying tactics for unorthodox playstyles which people haven't really tapped into yet.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Explain please.

Rep.

Like it or not, Rep plays a factor in tier lists. It's what allows people to prove that a character deserves their spot, proves that their MU numbers are correct, tests the usability of ATs in actual situation, etc.

You need at least several people repping a character to prove anything about them (outside of the very first tier list, where you are busy trying to grab any amount of data on any character and put them into a rough list). Mario has...Boss maybe? Does Boss still use Mario even? I honestly can't remember...I thought maybe he had moved onto Luigi.

Ness at least has FOW for placing. And doesn't get infinited by D3. Yes, Marth's grab release sucks, as does everyones ground break on him. But until Mario gets some real rep, I see no reason for him to keep his top of E tier position. If Mario was to get as much rep as say...Ike for example, including people as good as Boss (but more then one person of that caliber), I could easily see top of D tier for Mario. But that isn't happening, nobody is out there proving just how good his cape is, showing off his cape ATs, ect...there is no logical reason for Mario to remain that high.

EDIT: Potential means nothing unless it's proven. Mario's potential is not proven.

 

[Suspect]

Rep.

wrong

Like it or not, Rep plays a factor in tier lists. It's what allows people to prove that a character deserves their spot, proves that their MU numbers are correct, tests the usability of ATs in actual situation, etc.

Tier list is not a representation of how many people use so and so character (100%)

You need at least several people repping a character to prove anything about them (outside of the very first tier list, where you are busy trying to grab any amount of data on any character and put them into a rough list). Mario has...Boss maybe? Does Boss still use Mario even? I honestly can't remember...I thought maybe he had moved onto Luigi.

He uses both and is the best with both

Ness at least has FOW for placing. And doesn't get infinited by D3. Yes, Marth's grab release sucks, as does everyones ground break on him. But until Mario gets some real rep, I see no reason for him to keep his top of E tier position. If Mario was to get as much rep as say...Ike for example, including people as good as Boss (but more then one person of that caliber), I could easily see top of D tier for Mario. But that isn't happening, nobody is out there proving just how good his cape is, showing off his cape ATs, ect...there is no logical reason for Mario to remain that high.

Doesn't FOW use mk also? I know he has before but i don't remember if that was teams or not.

No one is proving how good his cape is? Look up cape ****, and whatever else is known about the cape is common sense. That's like saying "No one is showing off or proving how good foxes shine is"

Ness does not beat mario, one word son.

FLUDD

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Until it's proven in tournament play Suspect, it's simply theorycrafting. Such as Mario's amazing ledge cape AT thingy that forces the opponent to stall before grabbing the ledge. That thing could destroy tournaments if properly used...but nobody has stormed the scene with it. It's been proven that he can gimp recoveries with it and glide off stage, and...thats about it.

A tier list is based on facts. All of the theorycrafting in either direction doesn't matter a single bit: hard facts do. The fact is: nobody (except apparently Boss still) uses Mario in tournaments and does well with him. Obviously, there is some sort of reason for it. Yes, popularity does affect things, which is why tier lists aren't made by simply using a tournament result thread, but for the difference between his tier position and tournament use? Something is wrong. Ness has a tad more rep, and thus can prove things a bit more, or in this situation: at least proves it's possible to use him tournaments. I can't even think of the last time I saw Mario as a secondary in the placing of a tournament.