The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Red Arremer]

Even with Link, Zelda, or Ike?

I can't see it, explain any MU's you feel he goes even with.

I think he goes even with Ike and beats Zelda and Link. If Ike wouldn't have his Jab, Falcon would probably also beat him.

While all those 3 characters have range and good priority (and 2 of them have mediocre projectiles), they are absolutely outperformed by Falcon in the terms of mobility and speed. He can run away from them all day.
Falcon has the superior punishing game, and actually should be able to force all three of them to approach. He also easily beats all of them in the air and offstage (except maybe for Link, there his projectiles actually come in handy). Oh, and his grabgame is better too.

I don't see anything that would make any of those characters have an advantage on Captain Falcon.

Edit:
@Matador:
I think Mario goes even with Falcon.

 

[swordgard]

I'd disagree if you go down the list of VC and SNES the drop off at VC is a lot harder than the drop off at SNES. Because of the fact that they had pools. VC didn't so their are bound to be players who placed decent that wouldn't of made it out of pools at SNES. There was a drop off in attendence between APEX Gensis and SNES however, the talent of the players was still there.



He has placed higher but you don't take that into account because the amount of people that attended the tourney doesn't fit your belief of what a national tourney is about.

If the talent was similar (and it was really similar) between viridian city 6 and SNES, and viridian city is not a national, then please, don't claim that SNES was one. I fail to see Tyrant and Dojo, West coast or south at SNES. It does not qualify as a national. The point is, 13th is still not enough to show that the char is nearly as good as he makes her out to be. Argue this, not the fact that I call it a regional or national, if it is a national, competition and attendance were then simply very low for a national. What matters is not the name, but rather the amount of competition.

Also, your pools argument makes no sense since brackets are much less forgiving than pools. Brackets tend to make it much much harder to place at the top than pools. 2 losses and your out, you cant afford to be even the slightest inconsistent.

 

[Inui]

People become over concerned with Dark.Pch too. Exaggerating everything he claims. Whilst it definitely felt fruitless and agonising to argue in the past, "Peach is B tier" isn't too far of a stretch, considering I say Sheik could be.

Peach is B tier.

P.S. Marth ***** Snake.

No, Snake has no match-ups that could ever be called ****. On his worst stages against the best characters against him, he loses 40/60...maybe.

 

[Dark.Pch]

How about you stop distorting my facts. I am simply stating the fact that if you are attempting to prove that peach is as strong as you make her out to be, this placing alone is far from being sufficient. I am not saying you are bad or anything like this, but this placing is really not enough justification. Genesis, armada, 17th with sheik(that is 1 place behind you on a much bigger scale tourney, which is actually worth a lot more), does that make sheik A-B tier? Hell naw. If he got 9th, then yes, that would be a lot more discussed, but 17th does not quite cut it. Same in this case.

So please, for your own sake, stop calling other idiots when people are not arguing about your skill level but rather about what your placing proved with peach, which means not that much. You proved that she had better potential than expected, but you certainly have yet to prove that she is as good as you claim her to be. I am not going to do that, I have my own character whose metagame is underdeveloped. Also, stop calling bias when there really is an obvious difference between Genesis, Apex and SNES.

First off, I will tell you right now, numbers don't mean ****. As long as there are alot of good players at the tourny, number count at a tourny means nothing. So lets get that out the way.

Next as I said, if it is that simple, I wanna see others do what I do. It does not mean much, but why the hell people can't pick up Peach and do what I do around here? Or in general?

Last, in the summer I decided to step my game up. Change how I play and try **** out. Looked at my Peach guide and decided to do everything that I spoke about in there. it was a test to see if I can do better in tournies. And guess what, in a gay state as NJ, I managed to get 13, fighting 4 gay meta knights in a row. Me barely losing to inui game one and two. I could have beaten him. But screwed up, my fault. Oh well. Next time I'll step it up more and just win. Then Nearly beating atmosk in losers. Same concept as with Inui, Next time I'll be more careful and win. Beating snakes that camped me on halberd. You know how hard that **** is to pull off with Peach? Beating falcos that camped me and F-B all the time to run away.

Next tournament I went too, got 9th at one of Wes tournies beating good players.

Then SNES hit and I got 13th out of 141. This showed improvement. And what this character can do. Then I go to VC and get my *** handed to me. My fault. People have thier bad tournies. **** happens.

Then last tourny I went to in NY Got 7th beating good players I'm stepping it up. Shwoing what this character can really do. Yet this takes time. I don't even expect to do beast things so fast to prove people otherwise. it takes time and patience. This is Peach we talkinga bout here. But improvement has been showing and what she can do. And more will begin to show as I get better and step it up some more. Same time I am in no rush. Good things happen to those who wait.

Nobody would go omfg lol sandbag if you beat ally or m2k in tourney. Also, I do not assume your tone, you are giving posts which are loaded with suggestive terms such as calling other idiots or swearing all the time. Not only this, but you contradict yourself in this post saying how hard it is for you to go only peach yet you want to claim that she is one of the better characters in this game. Either she is, and its your fault for losing, or shes not and its simply much harder for you to win. You can't just switch from one to another depending on the situation >.>

EDIT: Other people are also improving, you seem to fail to take that into account when doing your evaluation of peachs potential, do not evaluate her on what you believe will be her future placing, we evaluate her on her current placings. If you want us to recognize peach as much better, simply place higher.

Trust me, I would hear alot of BS if I was to beat those 2. Just like how people were giving ADHD a ruff time when he beat ally at SNES and thought it was a fluck. Ally Beats him now but ADHD did hisd thing and amazing **** in that set to beat Ally. And this is comming from a Person who wanted ally to win that set.

And how I contradict myself for saying Peach is good? Look at ally with Snake. He does well in tournies as Snake and has even beating M2K. Does this mean Snake is easy to use and win with? No he is not. Cause there is alot of characters in this game that can abuse his weakness well. Ally is just a smart dude and puts in all that work to do the **** he does. Cause if that was the case, I would see alot of people doing what he does as snake and be eqal to him as snake. But guess what? There isn't. Peach is good but to do all this stuff with her that I do to get these placings is not easy. Or else like I said before, I like to see others pick up Peach and do what I do.

And for your edit Part, look at the first post I quoted of you and what I said. That covers your edit part.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

If the talent was similar (and it was really similar) between viridian city 6 and SNES, and viridian city is not a national, then please, don't claim that SNES was one. I fail to see Tyrant and Dojo, West coast or south at SNES. It does not qualify as a national. The point is, 13th is still not enough to show that the char is nearly as good as he makes her out to be. Argue this, not the fact that I call it a regional or national, if it is a national, competition and attendance were then simply very low for a national. What matters is not the name, but rather the amount of competition.

Also, your pools argument makes no sense since brackets are much less forgiving than pools. Brackets tend to make it much much harder to place at the top than pools. 2 losses and your out, you cant afford to be even the slightest inconsistent.

2 lose and you're out is true. However, after your first lose in a bracket tourney more than likely you won't face a good of a player as you did in the first round. Thus increasing your chances of placing higher. Thus allowing for more of a forgiveness. Pools aren't as forgiving as you make them sound. IF you notice the people who make it out of pools are normally PR players or well know players hardly is their ever anyone to get by that someone hasn't heard of before. Reflex was at SNES I guess he's not south. WC not being there doesn't make it any less of a national tourney. Just because your favorite smashers didn't show up to the tourney doesn't take away from it.

You're also failing to recogonize how much **** those VC tournies are. There a one of the more popular tournies that brings in a lot of players. It brings like 75 heads on a bad day it's ridic how much talent shows up there and for the last one of the summer it only makes sense for those people to show up like they did.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Not only this, but you contradict yourself in this post saying how hard it is for you to go only peach yet you want to claim that she is one of the better characters in this game. Either she is, and its your fault for losing, or shes not and its simply much harder for you to win. You can't just switch from one to another depending on the situation >.>

Lets face it, it's hard to go anyone that isn't truly top tier, if you're not a snake player or MK player, the reality is you got it rough, and it's not like Dark.pch is claiming she's an A-tier character, which means good, but not good enough that a secondary isn't highly recommended.

 

[Matador]

Edit:
@Matador:
I think Mario goes even with Falcon.

I'll have to diagree with this.

Fireballs make approaching very easy, especially since they cancel out an alarming amount of his attacks, comboing is hell for him because of his weight/fallspeed (utilt -> whatever you want), and gimping Falcon is simple since cape completely outranges his upB/sideB so timing isn't tight.

The only issues in this matchup for Mario are his earlier general KOing, his weight, his Utilt (it beats out most of our aerials), and his jab game.

Ally wins this set, but you can see how the matchup generally goes. Mario's not limited by very much in this match-up, not even in range or priority where he commonly loses out at.

I think it's 60:40 Mario personally, but I haven't played a die-hard, reputable Falcon main.

 

[swordgard]

First off, I will tell you right now, numbers don't mean ****. As long as there are alot of good players at the tourny, number count at a tourny means nothing. So lets get that out the way.

Next as I said, if it is that simple, I wanna see others do what I do. It does not mean much, but why the hell people can't pick up Peach and do what I do around here? Or in general?

Last, in the summer I decided to step my game up. Change how I play and try **** out. Looked at my Peach guide and decided to do everything that I spoke about in there. it was a test to see if I can do better in tournies. And guess what, in a gay state as NJ, I managed to get 13, fighting 4 gay meta knights in a row. Me barely losing to inui game one and two. I could have beaten him. But screwed up, my fault. Oh well. Next time I'll step it up more and just win. Then Nearly beating atmosk in losers. Same concept as with Inui, Next time I'll be more careful and win. Beating snakes that camped me on halberd. You know how hard that **** is to pull off with Peach? Beating falcos that camped me and F-B all the time to run away.

Next tournament I went too, got 9th at one of Wes tournies beating good players.

Then SNES hit and I got 13th out of 141. This showed improvement. And what this character can do. Then I go to VC and get my *** handed to me. My fault. People have thier bad tournies. **** happens.

Then last tourny I went to in NY Got 7th beating good players I'm stepping it up. Shwoing what this character can really do. Yet this takes time. I don't even expect to do beast things so fast to prove people otherwise. it takes time and patience. This is Peach we talkinga bout here. But improvement has been showing and what she can do. And more will begin to show as I get better and step it up some more. Same time I am in no rush. Good things happen to those who wait.



Trust me, I would hear alot of BS if I was to beat those 2. Just like how people were giving ADHD a ruff time when he beat ally at SNES and thought it was a fluck. Ally Beats him now but ADHD did hisd thing and amazing **** in that set to beat Ally. And this is comming from a Person who wanted ally to win that set.

And how I contradict myself for saying Peach is good? Look at ally with Snake. He does well in tournies as Snake and has even beating M2K. Does this mean Snake is easy to use and win with? No he is not. Cause there is alot of characters in this game that can abuse his weakness well. Ally is just a smart dude and puts in all that work to do the **** he does. Cause if that was the case, I would see alot of people doing what he does as snake and be eqal to him as snake. But guess what? There isn't. Peach is good but to do all this stuff with her that I do to get these placings is not easy. Or else like I said before, I like to see others pick up Peach and do what I do.

And for your edit Part, look at the first post I quoted of you and what I said. That covers your edit part.

What the hell, number count is useless? Hey, if I have 20 good players in one tourney, and 80 in the other, which include over 80% of the first 20 good players, I can assure you the second tourney will be much harder. The fact that its not that simple is pointless, no character is that simple to play. If your character is so hard to play, switch to a better one? ADHD did beat ally and m2k, and he often comes close enough, but he only beat em once, it was bound to happen since he always gets close. Please, stop trying to prove that you are the best peach player by trying to get more credit for what you did, this is not the point I am trying to make at all. Your current placings reflect approximately where peach is in the tier list, if very slightly higher. If its just you being smart, then its not the character, this is similar to how ally can play anyone at a very high level. If you placed that much higher, then we could easily reconsider peach's placing. But you don't. You keep on assuming that because you are improving we should assume there is a whole lot to be discovered with peach and she should be placed upon where she should be at her "ending metagame", which means when she will be perfected. This is not how it works, we use current placings, and yours are certainly not enough ALONE to produce the effect you want them to.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Lets face it, it's hard to go anyone that isn't truly top tier, if you're not a snake player or MK player, the reality is you got it rough, and it's not like Dark.pch is claiming she's an A-tier character, which means good, but not good enough that a secondary isn't highly recommended.

I say Peach can do well withpout back up characters. But of course, this is just me.

What the hell, number count is useless? Hey, if I have 20 good players in one tourney, and 80 in the other, which include over 80% of the first 20 good players, I can assure you the second tourney will be much harder. The fact that its not that simple is pointless, no character is that simple to play. If your character is so hard to play, switch to a better one? ADHD did beat ally and m2k, and he often comes close enough, but he only beat em once, it was bound to happen since he always gets close. Please, stop trying to prove that you are the best peach player by trying to get more credit for what you did, this is not the point I am trying to make at all. Your current placings reflect approximately where peach is in the tier list, if very slightly higher. If its just you being smart, then its not the character, this is similar to how ally can play anyone at a very high level. If you placed that much higher, then we could easily reconsider peach's placing. But you don't. You keep on assuming that because you are improving we should assume there is a whole lot to be discovered with peach and she should be placed upon where she should be at her "ending metagame", which means when she will be perfected. This is not how it works, we use current placings, and yours are certainly not enough ALONE to produce the effect you want them to.

Tournament A has 50 players with 30 plays in it. Tournament B has 100 people with 20 pros in it. Which tourny is harder, A or B?

Nuff said, numbers don't mean anything. it's who is at the tourny that metters. The average skill level of it. So that takes care of this matter.

And cause my character is hard to play I should switch? I realize my character is hards to play, and guess what, I except it and choose to work around it. Not sit here and cry about my match ups or How Peach has all these problems, can't do this and that. cause if it was that serious I would have punked out to a high tier LONG ago.

And I am not trying to get MORE credit for what I did. I don't like my credit being denied when I work my butt off to get what I get in tournies. Thewn you wanna make it seem like it nothing. Pick up Peach and show me something then. otherwise Don't talk about me or my credit. Keep it out your mouth.

And wether you wanna believe it or not, my placing do mean something and it shows Peach is better than what the rest with the 08 mindset of her think till this day. All I see you doing is making excuses cause YOU think Peach is not all that. You know nothing of me, how I play in person, stuff I done or Peach. So don't speak garbage you know nothing about and take credit away. Stick to your character and mind your own.

 

[swordgard]

I said Peach can do well withpout back up characters. But of course, this is just me.



Tournament A has ro players with 30 plays in it. Tournament B has 100 people with 20 pros in it. Which tourny is harder, A or B?

Nuff said, numbers don't mean anything. it's who is at the tourny that metters. The average skill level of it. So that takes care of this matter.

And cause my character is hard to play I should switch? I realize my character is hards to play, and guess what, I except it and choose to work around it. Not sit here and cry about my match ups or How Peach has all these problems, can't do this and that. cause if it was that serious I would have punked out to a high tier LONG ago.

And I am not trying to get MORE credit for what I did. I don't like my credit being denied when I work my butt off to get what I get in tournies. Thewn you wanna make it seem like it nothing. Pick up Peach and show me something then. otherwise Don't talk about me or my credit. Keep it out your mouth.

And wether you wanna believe it or not, my placing do mean something and it shows Peach is better than what the rest with the 08 mindset of her think till this day. All I see you doing is making excuses cause YOU think Peach is not all that. You know nothing of me, how I play in person, stuff I done or Peach. So don't speak garbage you know nothing about and take credit away. Stick to your character and mind your own.

You see, this is not how credit is given. Credit is given by people, I can take away whatever credit I give to you, simple as that. You can give yourself w/e props you want, I can say that it is unjustified if I back it up. Viridian had as many pro players as SNES, yet you got much worst. Heck, if you can say "everyone has bad days", why can't I say "you had a lucky day". Number wise, Genesis and Apex had twice as many pros at least as SNES or Viridian city, which shows my point that numbers DO matter. If you personally think that your 1 single decent placing at SNES shows that peach is supposed to be much higher, 13th is not good enough imo to value something much higher than what she currently is. I do know something about you, I can judge your arguments and how you have a tendency to strawman every argument to make it look like people are attacking you. You then proceed to insult them or tell them to go away. Those excuses are also called reasonning, its how most debates are done fyi. Unless you do convince someone, no, your placing won't mean much. If you say peach has so many bad matchups, maybe she is a bad character >.> . Also, I know of your placings, stop saying "You know nothing about my char or my placing or how i play or anything about me", enlighten me as to why you are so different that I cannot use logic to argue with you. If we do not know anything about your character, did you ever consider the possibility that YOU do not understand other characters at all and are grossly underestimating them? Stick to my character and mind my own? Seriously, can you try to avoid the debate more? Stop trying to turn this into a dark pch vs the world argument.

 

[SnackAttack]

Peach mains and drama, very banal indeed.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Dude, swordgard: more enter button, less mini-wall of texts please. @_@

 

[swordgard]

Dude, swordgard: more enter button, less mini-wall of texts please. @_@

But wall of texts are needed, they prevent the people from reading them!



Alright alright il try I guess.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Genius, the skill level of a tourny matters. Not how many people were in a darn bulding. Genesis Had more comp then SNES cause of the numbet of skilled level players there. not the numbet of people in a building. Numbers don't meanm anything.

And you wanna play this game with me? Ok.

Say relfex, to be honest, your placing at SNES does not mean **** cause the people at the tourny hard play PT. NOne knew the match up. So you got off easy. Sorry dude, except the truth. You getting 7th at SNES means nothing. See/ I can play this game too. But people won't say nothing to Relfex cause "he is relfex and a SBR member, he is the man and knows alot"

Aslo, one bad tourny from me, out of the others I did well at. So you really gonna use that logic against me dude? Seriously? And there is more than just one decent placing. Again at Inui's tourny, a state with gay game play I get 13th out of 65 (or was it 67?) Barley losing to Inui in winners, and samw with atomsk in losers. Then I play in NYC, which the comp here is no joke along with NJ people in there, I get 9th and later on again, 7th. it'd not just one tourny me doing well at. it's mutiple, with a regional included.

And then you got the nerve to sit her and tell me this? That this means nothing? I'm gonna tell all the people that I beat and hard a hard time beating a Peach that they freaking suck. You just gave me the right to do so.

Peach is a good character but hard to be good and win with. just like Snake. Snake is top tier but not easy to win with cause of it. Learn something about comeptitive smash for a change. Cause right now, that purple name does not suit you. You make it look bad.

I got those placings and wins cause I earned them. I got no free rides. I worked for what I got. Don't sit here and tell me otherwise.

 

[.Marik]

@ Sadaharu Inui: I believe Olimar goes 60:40 against Snake and MetaKnight is 55:45. Marth is considered 50:50 or 55:45 Snake's favour. Marth could go 55:45 against Snake, but I'm not entirely sure.

Also, Dark Peach, placing 13th @ SNES was no easy feat. Keep on representing that Peach of yours.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Say relfex, to be honest, your placing at SNES does not mean **** cause the people at the tourny hard play PT. NOne knew the match up. So you got off easy. Sorry dude, except the truth. You getting 7th at SNES means nothing. See/ I can play this game too. But people won't say nothing to Relfex cause "he is relfex and a SBR member, he is the man and knows alot"

People actually give me a lot of **** when I try to talk up PT because there aren't other particularly influential PT players. Many people actually think I'm just a gimmick now that I stopped using Wario.

No one really cares that I'm an SBR member, but a majority of people do agree that I deserve it, which is cool. People gravitate to either loving me or hating me, it seems, but that's something else entirely.

And, I'm proud of how I did. I'm not worried about how much "knowing the matchup" does for others, but in the current metagame, I'm doing fairly well. I don't need anyone to approve of it.

 

[Magik0722]

I believe people theroy-crafted the olimar vs snake matchup to much, its not that hard for snake.

 

[PhantomX]

Peach mains and drama, very banal indeed.

I like you for using the word banal :D

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think he goes even with Ike and beats Zelda and Link. If Ike wouldn't have his Jab, Falcon would probably also beat him.

While all those 3 characters have range and good priority (and 2 of them have mediocre projectiles), they are absolutely outperformed by Falcon in the terms of mobility and speed. He can run away from them all day.
Falcon has the superior punishing game, and actually should be able to force all three of them to approach. He also easily beats all of them in the air and offstage (except maybe for Link, there his projectiles actually come in handy). Oh, and his grabgame is better too.

I don't see anything that would make any of those characters have an advantage on Captain Falcon.

Edit:
@Matador:
I think Mario goes even with Falcon.

Zelda has a terrible projectile, Link's are decent. Link doesn't have to approach a campy Falcon and can zone outside of his range with Zair.

While Captain Falcon's ground speed in better his move attack speed it terrible, it most cases he has moves that are even slower than Link's, in the air his Uair and I think Nair come out faster, his jab is faster as well. Now if Captain Falcon is playing the run away game, many characters can catch him, he doesn't have a disgusting air-dodge and air mobility to run circles around the cast. He has the second fastest running speed in the game, but will this help him when he doesn't have methods to force it from the beginning.

Now lets flip the situation, lets says Link has % lead. Falcon has to approach, what can you do to approach. This is my point for why I think Link has the advantage, while both have really meh approach games Link's are safer than vice verse.

edit: IMO Snake's only bad MU is Olimar.

 

[LanceStern]

Then we got King Beef showing up very nicely with Peach in tournies.
Edresses hit 13th at Genesis too. That's impressive.
Then Light and a few others hitting 7th and 9th in their tournies.

Combine all three and you get a nice chunk of Peaches making some decent showings.

 

[Dark.Pch]

People actually give me a lot of **** when I try to talk up PT because there aren't other particularly influential PT players. Many people actually think I'm just a gimmick now that I stopped using Wario.

No one really cares that I'm an SBR member, but a majority of people do agree that I deserve it, which is cool. People gravitate to either loving me or hating me, it seems, but that's something else entirely.

And, I'm proud of how I did. I'm not worried about how much "knowing the matchup" does for others, but in the current metagame, I'm doing fairly well. I don't need anyone to approve of it.

Thanks for saying this. I feel the same way about myself for SNES. The only difference is, play Peach alot and seen all the stuff she can do in this current metagame. So by now, there is no excuse about "I don't know nothing about Peach and the match up" When I even come here thousands of times. As well as talking about her on the Peach boards and other character boards for character discussion. The only legit excuse I have for them, which I doubt they wopuld admit is, I don't play like other Peach players and switch it up all the times. My Peach is mindgame material and toying with peoples heads. I'm in a different class of Peach. Bur if they are not gonna go by that, there is no excuses.

But I respect that post you just made. And like I tell other people. If you feel this way, you use Peach at these tournies and come back t me. I wanna see them do what I do. Done. This talk is over.

Edit- Edreese got 17th at genesis, not 13th.

 

[Praxis]

oh well basically, my proof is that i beat snakes pretty frequently at tournaments, and i regularly play a very good one and i know the matchup inside and out, so when a marth main comes in saying peach doesn't have even close to an even matchup with snake makes me kind of discredit that claim considering they don't main either snake or peach.

After what Ally did to all of the Peaches at Genesis, I'm sticking to 60:40. The only Peach that even got him to last stock (Edrees included) was Excel_Zero, and Excel knows the matchup inside and out and Ally has minimal Peach experience. There is no way it's in Peach's favor. Even if I actually like fighting Snakes.

I'm not going to argue if you think it's "not that bad" or 55:45 Snake, but it is not in Peaches favor, on any stage.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Zelda has a terrible projectile, Link's are decent. Link doesn't have to approach a campy Falcon and can zone outside of his range with Zair.

While Captain Falcon's ground speed in better his move attack speed it terrible, it most cases he has moves that are even slower than Link's, in the air his Uair and I think Nair come out faster, his jab is faster as well. Now if Captain Falcon is playing the run away game, many characters can catch him, he doesn't have a disgusting air-dodge and air mobility to run circles around the cast. He has the second fastest running speed in the game, but will this help him when he doesn't have methods to force it from the beginning.

Now lets flip the situation, lets says Link has % lead. Falcon has to approach, what can you do to approach. This is my point for why I think Link has the advantage, while both have really meh approach games Link's are safer than vice verse.

edit: IMO Snake's only bad MU is Olimar.

Zelda's projectile isn't terrible.

 

[Zankoku]

Zelda's projectile isn't terrible.

Zelda's projectile is pretty bad. The only way it'd be good is if you somehow rigged it to work twice as fast.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Zelda's projectile isn't terrible.

It's not as good as most of the casts projectiles.

 

[Praxis]

Zelda's projectile isn't terrible.

You're right. Terrible doesn't do how bad it is justice.

It's absolute garbage.

It has no use in edgeguarding as it only helps your opponent to recover. It puts the player into a freefall, which limits aerial usage significantly. It clashes with most aerials (Peach can just nair the explosion and not get hurt) and has no followups unless your opponent is trying to airdodge through it to get to you in a blind panic.

It doesn't force approach if your opponent knows how to shield or use an aerial. It's just a "throw it out and hope it hits" attack with little purpose in her metagame.

 

[Dark.Pch]

After what Ally did to all of the Peaches at Genesis, I'm sticking to 60:40. The only Peach that even got him to last stock (Edrees included) was Excel_Zero, and Excel knows the matchup inside and out and Ally has minimal Peach experience. There is no way it's in Peach's favor. Even if I actually like fighting Snakes.

Mikey Lenetia played Ally in Pools at SNES and got his down to one stock. I think he did it in both games. I dont know what game one was like but game 2 he got him down to his last stock and nearly beat him.Also I am about the only Peach that he has not touched in a tourny or MM yet.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Zelda's projectile is pretty bad. The only way it'd be good is if you somehow rigged it to work twice as fast.

It's not as good as most of the casts projectiles.

You're right. Terrible doesn't do how bad it is justice.

It's absolute garbage.

I have to disagree the worth in a projectile isn't how spammy it is or how fast it can be used. However when it's used and it makes your opponent commit to X or Y outcome. That's where the value of the move is it IMO. A lot of people get caught up on the speed or a move or how spammable a move is. Thus the whole MK is broken rants he's easy to play his moves are spammable. I have yet to see a ban snake thread or snake is broke or snake breaks the CP system. It's funny a lot of times certain things within the smash community gets a pass like IC CG however other things like MK's nado which is hype is bemoaned and cried about. Back to my point though Din's fire is a good projectile gotta know how to use it. Don't go into a match thinking you'll be able to camp with DF.

 

[Praxis]

I will grant that, as the EC has significantly more and better Snakes than the WC, EC Peaches might have a bit more experience/developed metagame against him. No way it's in her favor though; top Snakes don't lose to top Peaches.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Falcon does not go even with Ike. It's 6-4 Ike's A.

Besides Ike's Jab basically shutting down anything Falcon tries, Falcon can't do anything about Ike's Nair either. Nothing for him to punish, and he can't get pass it. RAR Bair is in the same boat as Nair.

And from the times I have played this match up (from both ends, more times as Falcon then Ike): Falcon has to approach Ike due to Ike's fair/Nair. The main things Falcon has going for him is punishing moves with Falcon Kick (when possible, which isn't often when the Ike is playing smart), his mobility (which doesn't help the fact he still can't get pass Ike's jab), and Up Bing Ike's aether.

 

[Praxis]

I have to disagree the worth in a projectile isn't how spammy it is or how fast it can be used. However when it's used and it makes your opponent commit to X or Y outcome. That's where the value of the move is it IMO. A lot of people get caught up on the speed or a move or how spammable a move is. Thus the whole MK is broken rants he's easy to play his moves are spammable. I have yet to see a ban snake thread or snake is broke or snake breaks the CP system. It's funny a lot of times certain things within the smash community gets a pass like IC CG however other things like MK's nado which is hype is bemoaned and cried about. Back to my point though Din's fire is a good projectile gotta know how to use it. Don't go into a match thinking you'll be able to camp with DF.

Where did I say anything about spammy?

It has no use in edgeguarding as it only helps your opponent to recover. It puts the player into a freefall, which limits aerial usage significantly. It clashes with most aerials (Peach can just nair the explosion and not get hurt) and has no followups unless your opponent is trying to airdodge through it to get to you in a blind panic.

It doesn't force approach if your opponent knows how to shield or use an aerial. It's just a "throw it out and hope it hits" attack with little purpose in her metagame.

Explain to me how to use it instead of making vague statements about what makes a projectile good. I'm fairly sure I understand projectile usage quite well.

 

[Zankoku]

Din's Fire isn't even that great at forcing your opponent to commit, since its cooldown is a little too much to actually punish most (correct) responses to Din's Fire.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I will grant that, as the EC has significantly more and better Snakes than the WC, EC Peaches might have a bit more experience/developed metagame against him. No way it's in her favor though; top Snakes don't lose to top Peaches.

You right. it is not in her Favor. I there is no way It can be. And as I said before. I save the match up is even but not ready to rpove that ye. Still have a few things to figure out. And it's kinda getting annoying. I wanna figure this crap out already. But until I do so, I say Snake slighty beats Peach.

I'm about the only one who has not taken ally to a serious match. As to be honest, until I complete my work on snake, there is no way I am gonna beat Ally now. I am not ready. If I was to face him at a tourny soon, I would not win. When I finish with snake, then I will say I can kick his butt and go after him. Me vs him to prove a point is gonna have to wait as well as me going up against other top snakes..

But there is no way in hell Peach beats Snake, as much as I want that.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Where did I say anything about spammy?

It has no use in edgeguarding as it only helps your opponent to recover. It puts the player into a freefall, which limits aerial usage significantly. It clashes with most aerials (Peach can just nair the explosion and not get hurt) and has no followups unless your opponent is trying to airdodge through it to get to you in a blind panic.

It doesn't force approach if your opponent knows how to shield or use an aerial. It's just a "throw it out and hope it hits" attack with little purpose in her metagame.

Explain to me how to use it instead of making vague statements about what makes a projectile good. I'm fairly sure I understand projectile usage quite well.

I wouldn't say it has no uses in edgeguarding. Depending on the opponents recovery it can severely limit their options. I already know that peach's nair can explode DF. That doesn't make the move any worse. If you cancel out the Din fire then that tells me i will have to exploded it early or later before. You can throw out your nair and still get hit by dins. I'm not too sure why you'd do it in the air but you can use the Free Fall to sort of glide and cover some distance to put you in a position to be able to respond to your opponent.

So basically your options to respond to DF are cancel with attack air dodge get with the move. Basically two options some people will take the hit to recover that may kill that. So a move that severely limits my opponents response and options is bad? Also air dodging is most likely the worst response they can have to Din's especially if they're recovering high. I actually what you to air dodge so that I can respond to your air dodge.

So once a can how is a projectile that can put me in a neutral position or give me an advantage force my opponent into limited responses that Zelda can cover possible be bad? I mean you've said it your self either cancel the attack or a ir dodge.

 

[Zankoku]

The problems with it are two-fold - in terms of usage in a neutral situation, it very much has none. And, in terms of usage in edgeguarding, your greatest expectation is for the Din's Fire to not hit.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

The problems with it are two-fold - in terms of usage in a neutral situation, it very much has none. And, in terms of usage in edgeguarding, your greatest expectation is for the Din's Fire to not hit.

I don't want to hit I want it to bait a response from my opponent that I can appropriately hand after I'm doing with the move. Like I said airdodge is the worst response because the cool down from Din's fire isn't long enough to allow someone to air dodge and punish.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Din's isn't useless, but it's still pretty terrible. It's mainly for mindgame purposes... Using it to camp is asking to be punished.

 

[Zankoku]

I don't want to hit I want it to bait a response from my opponent that I can appropriately hand after I'm doing with the move. Like I said airdodge is the worst response because the cool down from Din's fire isn't long enough to allow someone to air dodge and punish.

Okay, let's reiterate here - first, there's no real use for it in a neutral situation, which already puts it below many MANY other projectiles in usefulness. Second, its use in pressure is to hope for the best in a situation where your opponent doesn't get hit by it. I don't know how you can expect such a one-dimensional projectile to be not bad, let alone good.

 

[Alus]

Din's isn't useless, but it's still pretty terrible. It's mainly for mindgame purposes... Using it to camp is asking to be punished.

I really would like to hear more about the "mindgame purposes".

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Okay, let's reiterate here - first, there's no real use for it in a neutral situation, which already puts it below many MANY other projectiles in usefulness. Second, its use in pressure is to hope for the best in a situation where your opponent doesn't get hit by it. I don't know how you can expect such a one-dimensional projectile to be not bad, let alone good.

I don't see how you're hoping your opponent doesn't get hit by it. Either they do or they don't. If they do get hit by it free damage with the knock back you may get a kill. If they don't what action did they take did they air dodge if yes respond accordingly. No they used an attack also respond accordingly. Once again the move isn't spammable. It's not used for camping that doesn't take away from the move. It's a move that puts on pressure when your opponent is recovering, it's really safe when used accordingly and it has a good pay off it you actually do hit with the move. Just because a projectile can be used in a neutral situation doen't make it effective. So once again I ask you how is a move that limits your opponents options forces them into predictable response a bad move?

I'm not saying that you can camp with DF i've never suggested that their are certain characters where din's can force approaches IC and d3 get outcamped by Zelda for example. The move is useful just because it's doesn't screech and scream broken doesn't make it terrible.