The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[LuigiKing]

Squirtle > Luigi >= Peach > PT as a whole.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Squirtle > Luigi >= Peach > PT as a whole.

No.. because Luigi doesn't get tired after 2 minutes -.-

 

[Dark.Pch]

No.. because Luigi doesn't get tired after 2 minutes -.-

Nither does Peach.

 

[Suspect]

i like a girl that can last

 

[Dark.Pch]

You just figured out why I main Peach.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8Tzj8On8SQ&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkC-MRANbtE&feature=channel

Peach is a freakin' beast in teams.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I been telling people this for a long time. I team with random characters and place high in teams. Peach ***** in teams and no one wants to believe that. Ask all the people that teamed with Me. I freaking hack it.

People down grade this characters true power too much. And I will put an end to this madness.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

The Peach in those vids is LLOD, my usual partner. And I can vouch for Peach's prowess in teams.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Zelda vs DDD. Advantaged match-up right there. DDD cannot CG zelda thus DDD loses out on an advantage he has on many. He is easily sucked into all of her multi hitting attacks. Can out spam DDD with Din's fire. At the very least I believe that B will negate the waddles thrown at her and possibly reflect the gordo. So this will more than likely cause DDD to approach which Zelda takes advantage of the excellent defence game she has.

Zelda can't outspam DDD... she's got the critical tell (basically, wait for her to move her hand, it's more then enough frames for you to beat it on reaction). But she can punish DDD's waddle dee throw on reaction with Din's fire if spaced properly.

 

[lain]

I beat Snakeee, Inui, Dark Peach, and Judge in brackets. Are they good enough to say that I'm not just placing in scrub tournaments? Or am I just broke-tier level, and PT's still a terrible character?

I'm sorry but beating those people doesn't exactly make you a god. Beating Judge does though.

However, it's to my understanding you beat lots of people simply because they don't know how to fight PT.

You're still obviously smart and amazing and whatever. Just tellin it like it is.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

@adumbrodeus: Just mentioning what had been said on here before. Can Zelda outspam anyone besides those with no projectile? lol

Oh look, lain posted for a change.

 

[SoulSilver7]

Marth actually does pretty good in that department too because DK's up-b isn't disjointed enough and counter works.


Ok, it's not so much about gimping, it's about, "keep sending them back until they finally get enough damage to die off the side".




He does suck at killing, the problem isn't lack of kill MOVES it's lack of kill SETUPS. Sonic's got kill power, but good luck hitting with a killing move.

Not only that, but most of his kill moves have average range, so it can be somewhat hard landing a hit.

 

[adumbrodeus]

@adumbrodeus: Just mentioning what had been said on here before. Can Zelda outspam anyone besides those with no projectile? lol

Oh look, lain posted for a change.

She can't even outspam those WITH no projectiles. Before we recognized the exact timing for the tell, it was a guessing game, but now, you perfect shield/nair/airdodge/whatever on reaction and beat it every single time.


But again, she can PUNISH things with it, so it's got it's uses, especially in regards to laggy projectiles.

That said, a number of characters simply don't outspam her because they can't spam her period. That saves her from some of what would be disadvantages.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Try harder.

I wasn't trolling. Squirtle's just stupidly good. I never said that made Pokemon Trainer better than Peach or anyone else.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm sorry but beating those people doesn't exactly make you a god. Beating Judge does though.

However, it's to my understanding you beat lots of people simply because they don't know how to fight PT.

People need to step their game up.

Also, I need to learn how not to lose.

EDIT: Didn't mean to double-post.

 

[Zenthewanderer]

Not to change the subject, but what exactly caused Captain Falcon to hop out of the bottom spot?

An advance in his Metagame? Sudden rise in tournament placings? Someone tripped into a Falcon Punch?

Not to question the captain, but to my knowledge Link has been outperforming him in tournaments pretty consistently. I can't say the same for Ganon, but still. What happened that I missed?

Also, lack of knowledge of a MU is not a viable excuse for a loss. Its the classic-
"I'm not stupid, I just didn't study!" excuse. A defeat is a defeat- there's no way around that. A major part of player skill is based upon your knowledge of other characters and what they are (and aren't) capable of. If a person doesn't 'know how to fight' a certain character, that is a fault of their training- or lack thereof. It is not a way to depreciate the value of your opponent's victory- PT, Sonic, so on.

Its quite childish to insist that the only reason for a rash of some character's wins is due to his/her opponent's neglect to learn the match-up. Namely because not every player plays a character the same way. There's no universal list of MU traits that all players are able to study and magically learn to win. This isn't rock, paper, scissors we're talking about. "I didn't know paper beat rock!"

Not to be directed at anyone in particular, but it is a John that I've gotten quite tired of hearing.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Not to change the subject, but what exactly caused Captain Falcon to hop out of the bottom spot?

An advance in his Metagame? Sudden rise in tournament placings? Someone tripped into a Falcon Punch?

Not to question the captain, but to my knowledge Link has been outperforming him in tournaments pretty consistently. I can't say the same for Ganon, but still. What happened that I missed?

Ganon, while I disagree with it, it's generally because all his ground options are slower then reaction time.

Link however, is a wtf moment.

Also, lack of knowledge of a MU is not a viable excuse for a loss. Its the classic-
"I'm not stupid, I just didn't study!" excuse. A defeat is a defeat- there's no way around that. A major part of player skill is based upon your knowledge of other characters and what they are (and aren't) capable of. If a person doesn't 'know how to fight' a certain character, that is a fault of their training- or lack thereof. It is not a way to depreciate the value of your opponent's victory- PT, Sonic, so on.

Its quite childish to insist that the only reason for a rash of some character's wins is due to his/her opponent's neglect to learn the match-up. Namely because not every player plays a character the same way. There's no universal list of MU traits that all players are able to study and magically learn to win. This isn't rock, paper, scissors we're talking about. "I didn't know paper beat rock!"

Not to be directed at anyone in particular, but it is a John that I've gotten quite tired of hearing.

Understand we're not talking about johning for players. You neglect to learn the match-up, then whatever, it shows that you're less skilled, especially when they knew reflex was coming to the tournament and he has a **** PT.


However, we're not talking about johning for those players, we're talking about tier positions here, and the reality is PEOPLE DO NEGLECT TO LEARN MATCH-UPS. And when that happens, low tier characters, especially complex ones like PT, do gain an advantage. Especially when there's very few people to practice against.


So yea, the losses are legit losses by the players, but on the other hand, maybe PT isn't so good when PT's are common enough that more people know how to fight him. Just food for thought.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Understand we're not talking about johning for players. You neglect to learn the match-up, then whatever, it shows that you're less skilled, especially when they knew reflex was coming to the tournament and he has a **** PT.


However, we're not talking about johning for those players, we're talking about tier positions here, and the reality is PEOPLE DO NEGLECT TO LEARN MATCH-UPS. And when that happens, low tier characters, especially complex ones like PT, do gain an advantage. Especially when there's very few people to practice against.


So yea, the losses are legit losses by the players, but on the other hand, maybe PT isn't so good when PT's are common enough that more people know how to fight him. Just food for thought.

I have to do a lot of theorycrafting when I play at large tournaments. The only people I regularly play are Kismet (which explains why I was able to hang in there against SK92 and DEHF), and my older brother, elev8 (a DECENT Dedede/Zero Suit Samus).

The excellent players I play in tournament regularly are Kismet (Falco) and BigLou (Luigi, and he's hardly at tournaments anymore). I've gone to a couple Florida tournaments, so I have some Snake, MK, and Dedede experience in that...but...that's pretty much it. I just have to judge from the knowledge that I read and assume. We play the same game, and characters don't differ -that- much. I don't understand why matchup experience is that large of an issue, especially against players in the upper echelon.

 

[Meru.]

We play the same game, and characters don't differ -that- much. I don't understand why matchup experience is that large of an issue, especially against players in the upper echelon.

I don't know, but I think that's more dependant on the characte you play. I main Peach and every Peach main should know match-ups very well.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I have to do a lot of theorycrafting when I play at large tournaments. The only people I regularly play are Kismet (which explains why I was able to hang in there against SK92 and DEHF), and my older brother, elev8 (a DECENT Dedede/Zero Suit Samus).

The excellent players I play in tournament regularly are Kismet (Falco) and BigLou (Luigi, and he's hardly at tournaments anymore). I've gone to a couple Florida tournaments, so I have some Snake, MK, and Dedede experience in that...but...that's pretty much it. I just have to judge from the knowledge that I read and assume. We play the same game, and characters don't differ -that- much. I don't understand why matchup experience is that large of an issue, especially against players in the upper echelon.

Knowing a match us does matter is it is important. I lost one round in a set to a Falcon just because I have never touched a falcon before offline and had no clue what the hell to do. And played a good Falcon. Game 2 and three after I got used to his stuff and thought things through, I 2 stocked it. And Peach ***** falcon. Snakeee beat m2k a while back all because he did not know the match up. Now that he did, Snakeee can't scratch a game off m2k. You can have all the power in the world. But what good is it if you don't know how to use it. Thus a person with less power than you can beat the hell out of you and you be defenseless even with all that power you hold.

No one is deniing your credit as a beast PT, but at the same time don't BS facts and truths about this game and what it takes to be good at it and win. and know matches is a big factor.

 

[Alus]

Not to change the subject, but what exactly caused Captain Falcon to hop out of the bottom spot?

An advance in his Metagame? Sudden rise in tournament placings? Someone tripped into a Falcon Punch?

Not to question the captain, but to my knowledge Link has been outperforming him in tournaments pretty consistently. I can't say the same for Ganon, but still. What happened that I missed?

Also, lack of knowledge of a MU is not a viable excuse for a loss. Its the classic-
"I'm not stupid, I just didn't study!" excuse. A defeat is a defeat- there's no way around that. A major part of player skill is based upon your knowledge of other characters and what they are (and aren't) capable of. If a person doesn't 'know how to fight' a certain character, that is a fault of their training- or lack thereof. It is not a way to depreciate the value of your opponent's victory- PT, Sonic, so on.

Its quite childish to insist that the only reason for a rash of some character's wins is due to his/her opponent's neglect to learn the match-up. Namely because not every player plays a character the same way. There's no universal list of MU traits that all players are able to study and magically learn to win. This isn't rock, paper, scissors we're talking about. "I didn't know paper beat rock!"

Not to be directed at anyone in particular, but it is a John that I've gotten quite tired of hearing.

Where you are going with this makes no sense at all...

You ask why falcon raised in tiers, you then say that it is childish to insist the possibility of the opponent not knowing the machup, and then turn around and say that it is the players fault?

Then you refer to the whole thing as a john?

This is how I read it. Willing to explain to me?

 

[Nestec]

She can't even outspam those WITH no projectiles. Before we recognized the exact timing for the tell, it was a guessing game, but now, you perfect shield/nair/airdodge/whatever on reaction and beat it every single time.


But again, she can PUNISH things with it, so it's got it's uses, especially in regards to laggy projectiles.

That said, a number of characters simply don't outspam her because they can't spam her period. That saves her from some of what would be disadvantages.

So basically, Zelda should do pretty well in any MU where the opponent is forced to approach, amirite? Because of her solid defensive abilities.

Hmmm, how well does Zelda do versus characters who have no projectiles, but can still get close enough to hit her without having to worry about her defense? (I think that would be the likes of...Marth, DK, etc.)

Where you are going with this makes no sense at all...

You ask why falcon raised in tiers, you then say that it is childish to insist the possibility of the opponent not knowing the machup, and then turn around and say that it is the players fault?

Then you refer to the whole thing as a john?

This is how I read it. Willing to explain to me?

He was bringing up two different, unrelated points. First he was just asking why did Falcon rise, and then he was expressing his opinion on the match-up knowledge thing.


---

Btw, I dunno why, but I'm getting utterly sick of the word "theorycrafting". I did not start hearing it used so much until this summer. o_O

 

[gm jack]

Knowing a match us does matter is it is important. I lost one round in a set to a Falcon just because I have never touched a falcon before offline and had no clue what the hell to do. And played a good Falcon. Game 2 and three after I got used to his stuff and thought things through, I 2 stocked it. And Peach ***** falcon. Snakeee beat m2k a while back all because he did not know the match up. Now that he did, Snakeee can't scratch a game off m2k. You can have all the power in the world. But what good is it if you don't know how to use it. Thus a person with less power than you can beat the hell out of you and you be defenseless even with all that power you hold.

No one is deniing your credit as a beast PT, but at the same time don't BS facts and truths about this game and what it takes to be good at it and win. and know matches is a big factor.

Of course. However, it doesn't mean a character is any worse. In the Snakeee vs m2k example, snake exploited a weakness of m2k. M2k then improved and beat him back. Reflex has been placing well for a fair while (AFAIK). Surely at some point people must have tried to learn the match up. He still does well, which implies one of three things.

1)PT is a good character who is viable in tournament play.
2)All the people he plays are inable to learn to fight someone who they should know is in their area and is good.
3)Reflex breaks the game, and is an outstanding player who by skill alone makes the character viable, despite the character having crippling flaws.

So basically, Zelda should do pretty well in any MU where the opponent is forced to approach, amirite? Because of her solid defensive abilities.

Hmmm, how well does Zelda do versus characters who have no projectiles, but can still get close enough to hit her without having to worry about her defense? (I think that would be the likes of...Marth, DK, etc.)

Pretty much. Unless you have a sword or otherwise have very disjointed hitboxes, have fun trying to approach Zelda. DK doesn't do well against her AFAIK, because Zelda's large disjoints and transcendent priority make it very hard for him to do anything. Also, massive target for lightning kicks.

 

[Dark.Pch]

That is not the case here. He is going on saying why knowing match ups is in important. it is an issue and is important to do well. Just knowing all about your character is not enough. I never touched a PT like that and play that match up. Also have no clue what the hell to do or have any to play around here. There was no way I was beating him with this against me.

Also to clear something else up. If a Peach player does not know a match up, despite what characher she is playing, that character won't have much trouble winning. My friend played Wes sonic and lost both times. Once got three stocked. He does not know anything about that match up and does not play sonics. And he mains Peach. Then I played wes and never lost a game to him cause I know the match up and know what I can do and what he can do to me.

People can BS this all they want. Truth is. Knowing matches is important and it's a fact. That is the point I am getting across. Nothing more or less.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Of course. However, it doesn't mean a character is any worse. In the Snakeee vs m2k example, snake exploited a weakness of m2k. M2k then improved and beat him back. Reflex has been placing well for a fair while (AFAIK). Surely at some point people must have tried to learn the match up. He still does well, which implies one of three things.

1)PT is a good character who is viable in tournament play.
2)All the people he plays are inable to learn to fight someone who they should know is in their area and is good.
3)Reflex breaks the game, and is an outstanding player who by skill alone makes the character viable, despite the character having crippling flaws.

I would imagine that #3 would make #1 true, though...at least, the latter part of it.

I've already said many times that I feel the game is pretty balanced. It doesn't take a whole lot to be tournament-viable in Brawl (compared to Melee, at least).

That is not the case here. He is going on saying why knowing match ups is in important. it is an issue and is important to do well. Just knowing all about your character is not enough. I never touched a PT like that and play that match up. Also have no clue what the hell to do or have any to play around here. There was no way I was beating him with this against me.

Also to clear something else up. If a Peach player does not know a match up, despite what characher she is playing, that character won't have much trouble winning. My friend played Wes sonic and lost both times. Once got three stocked. He does not know anything about that match up and does not play sonics. And he mains Peach. Then I played wes and never lost a game to him cause I know the match up and know what I can do and what he can do to me.

People can BS this all they want. Truth is. Knowing matches is important and it's a fact. That is the point I am getting across. Nothing more or less.

But some people adapt faster than others. I'm pretty good at it, myself. Also, people should have a general idea of how all the characters work, which also aids in that, especially if they -really- understand the game in general. I think that goes a long way in helping in any matchup.

 

[ArnoldsCat]

i dont think gannon should be dead bottom because hes really strong. and has alot of 1hitkill moves at low damages

that said..everyone else seem to be better than him

 

[Nestec]

that said..everyone else seem to be better than him

Yeah, that's pretty much what it comes down to.

 

[gm jack]

i dont think gannon should be dead bottom because hes really strong. and has alot of 1hitkill moves at low damages

that said..everyone else seem to be better than him

Ganon's biggest problems are his really slow speed (every one of his moves apart from his pathetic ranged grab can be dealt with on reaction) and problems dealing with camping (hence his 5-95 match up with a Sheik abusing the chain.

 

[ArnoldsCat]

Ganon's biggest problems are his really slow speed (every one of his moves apart from his pathetic ranged grab can be dealt with on reaction) and problems dealing with camping (hence his 5-95 match up with a Sheik abusing the chain.

supose so
mind hes not that bad..
but like i said its most likely cause everyone else is easier to use and more effective

 

[kingcobra9]

supose so
mind hes not that bad..
but like i said its most likely cause everyone else is easier to use and more effective

he is bad if absolutley everyone is more effective. effectiveness is what determines how good they are.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ganon's biggest problems are his really slow speed (every one of his moves apart from his pathetic ranged grab can be dealt with on reaction) and problems dealing with camping (hence his 5-95 match up with a Sheik abusing the chain.

Standing grab.

Unlike Zelda, his standing grab is fast enough that it can't be reacted to.

 

[xDD-Master]

1. MK
2. Snake
3. Diddy
4. Wario
5. ICs

Next Tier List !

Just felt to say that

 

[Meru.]

Diddy won't be third, I'm sure of that.

 

[ArnoldsCat]

i wish they made captain falcon better so he could be higher..

 

[Nanaki]

Diddy won't be third, I'm sure of that.

Who will be? Only other options are Wario, Falco, IC's, or D3. Wario's results aren't enough to keep him above Diddy, and people seem to have a real issue admitting Falco is as good as he shows. I'd say IC's and Diddy have a pretty good shot at #3. ADHD did just win SNES singles with Diddy, after all.

 

[The Truth!]

That is not the case here. He is going on saying why knowing match ups is in important. it is an issue and is important to do well. Just knowing all about your character is not enough. I never touched a PT like that and play that match up. Also have no clue what the hell to do or have any to play around here. There was no way I was beating him with this against me.

Also to clear something else up. If a Peach player does not know a match up, despite what characher she is playing, that character won't have much trouble winning. My friend played Wes sonic and lost both times. Once got three stocked. He does not know anything about that match up and does not play sonics. And he mains Peach. Then I played wes and never lost a game to him cause I know the match up and know what I can do and what he can do to me.

People can BS this all they want. Truth is. Knowing matches is important and it's a fact. That is the point I am getting across. Nothing more or less.

Hee hee, you make it sound like good peaches are the most common thing in smash, just sounds like a john to me . There are what, two or three good peaches? And a handful of decent ones? Same thing is true for Ice Climbers (or pika), hardly anyone is used to fighting a good one and are going to have a match-up inexperience advantge. Although for ICs is becoming a lot less true since everyone and their mother is starting to second them. Actually based of Ankokus list its true for almost any non-S tier character except maybe marth and a few former top tiers like ROB and GW.

 

[ArnoldsCat]

Who will be? Only other options are Wario, Falco, IC's, or D3. Wario's results aren't enough to keep him above Diddy, and people seem to have a real issue admitting Falco is as good as he shows. I'd say IC's and Diddy have a pretty good shot at #3. ADHD did just win SNES singles with Diddy, after all.

falcos recovery isnt that good.
thats whats keeping him down.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Hee hee, you make it sound like good peaches are the most common thing in smash, just sounds like a john to me . There are what, two or three good peaches? And a handful of decent ones? Same thing is true for Ice Climbers (or pika), hardly anyone is used to fighting a good one and are going to have a match-up inexperience advantge. Although for ICs is becoming a lot less true since everyone and their mother is starting to second them. Actually its true for almost any non-S tier character except maybe marth and a few former top tiers like ROB and GW.

What you assume from my post is straight false.

 

[Frown]

Bottom:

1. Captain Falcon
2. Ganondorf
3. Samus
4. Link
5. Jigglypuff

 

[Nanaki]

falcos recovery isnt that good.
thats whats keeping him down.

He is nigh unbeatable on certain stages, though. He's a CP monster, which makes taking a set from him really hard if he wins the first match.

Recovery doesn't mean much in Brawl unless it's REALLY bad (like, Link/Ivy bad).