The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v2.0

[Justblaze647]

Agreed... Zelda's to good to be bottom tier...

 

[Kinzer]

You don't have to adjust your opinion according to what other people think.

He probably made a mistake and meant to keep Samus above Ganon but was distracted while writing this down maybe?

Last time I checked Zelda is a hell of a lot better than anyone on this list. Low mid tier, and doomed to stay there, but she is not a low tier character, and certainly not bottom tier.

Agreed... Zelda's to good to be bottom tier...

Although these next two quotes bring up something about listening to other people's thoughts/opinions/posts.

It is very easy to say that a character should/n't be here/there, but it's much harder to explain/prove WHY/ NOT.

So tell me, why isn't Zelda low/bottom tier? I might be coming from a biased point but the way I see it, Zelda is much better off as a Down-B move for Sheik, but it cannot be applied the same vice-versa when Zelda is all kill moves while Sheik is all damage-racking.

Please be a bit more creative than a/the Zelda/Sheik combination, I've heard it enough and I acknowledge that the both of them together are a very tourney viable character, but what I want to know is why/where should Zelda on her own (not) be here/there?

Zelda on her own is... somewhat decent I suppose, but what are her bad MUs where it is much more recommended that Sheik be played? You may be able to make the MU less unplayable by using a Down-B, but then again it's really hard to tell considering this "move" transforms you into an entire different character and quite frankly, it doesn't prove anything when you're technically counterpicking that character with another and you find yourself using the other a majority of the time to cover your weaknesses, because Zelda on her own would not be able to handle the situation on her own.

That would be like me using Sonic to assist my Donkey Bong in tourneys, yeah sure I can for the most part blaze through the tourney with just solo Bong as long as I don't run into a D3, but what will I do then? It affects Donkey Bong's spot on the tier list very much when playing the character is literally just "have a back-up character in-case you run into a King Dedede player or lose" situation, and I'm pretty sure that Zelda has bad MUs herself (though granted not a 90-10 MU, but it can still get pretty uphill without Sheik).

Now let's just look at Zelda from a general standpoint shall we?

In a game where most characters can force an approach, Zelda fits into this category... but like Samus does it (semi-) badly. Din's Fire is pretty slow and easy to see coming, and hardly does anything except maybe force an approach on characters without a projectile (I believe those characters to be quite the minority). Where Zelda may have a reflector, what good will it do when it's not like a real reflector such as Fox/Wolf's? It doesn't last forever and has some considerable lag at the end, and again pretty easy to foresee and avoid. What happens when Zelda is forced to approach? What does she have to pressure safely? This is a very hard criteria to meet in this game where defense is usually at the advantage, and I can't see what Zelda has to do this, I just don't.

Now let's say Zelda is in her element, that is being able to make the opponent come to her... how good of a job does she do at this? I've already stated why some of her tools are not to be relied upon, and what about her-close range game? Smashes are great and all, but for it to be successful it's usually a mistake on the opponent's part for setting themselves set up for it. DTilt set-ups you say? what good does this do against an opponent who can just simply outspace this? It's not very hard to do I'm sorry to say. Most if not all her other attacks also require some sort of timing to use as well, because if you whiff it it will leave you open long enough for counterattack.

I'll say it again, I might be coming from a biased standpoint because I believe that using Sheik as the starter character would be more efficient than Zelda on the frontlines, but still... would anybody like to prove me wrong/point out some things?

 

[gm jack]

When approaching Zelda, it is generally a matter of (to quote) having a sword/whip/pikmin or getting *****. Zelda is very strong in defense, and if she had more ways of forcing approaches, she would be much higher on the tier list than she is now. However, she does not. She has a lack of safe approaches which is what limits her severely.

However, what tools she does have is more than what most people below her have. I don't doubt that she will move down, while Sheik will climb.

I just feel that she has enough resources to be able to stay in the mid tiers, even if she is near the bottom of it. If you look at her match ups, she generally does pretty well against the bottom half of the tier list, and has a few good ones higher up, such as DDD. However, **** match ups from G&W, MK and Snake (all 70:30) are never going to let her get any higher.

 

[:mad:]

Approaching Zelda? Haha, good luck. They stale their smashes. Not all dai, but a good deal of the dai.
And we can't beat it.

But honestly, Lucas is muchhhh better than bottom.

 

[macjsus]

I saw another tier list that said snake was at the top but I think this one is more acurate.

 

[RDK]

I saw another tier list that said snake was at the top but I think this one is more acurate.

That's what happens when you go to Gamefaqs for your tier lists.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

That's what happens when you go to Gamefaqs for your tier lists.

Silverflash's was good for keeping the masses over there down until this place posted theirs. >_>

And he actually used some logic.

 

[thespymachine]

Ice Climbers above Pika, and I think it would be better. Imo.

 

[Mr. Zain]

Lucas should be higher than where he is right now.

 

[:mad:]

Lucas should stay where he is right now.

 

[Red Arremer]

Lucas should drop.

 

[:mad:]

Spadefox should drop, Straked should be high tier, if not top.

 

[Red Arremer]

Spadefox deserves his own garbage tier of badness.

 

[:mad:]

Way to get us off-topic, Spade. No love for you.

WHY should Lucas drop?

 

[Red Arremer]

He's a horrible character whose only upsides are his ridiculously fast FSmash and his awesome recovery.

Otherwise, he sucks. A lot. Laggy attacks, aerials which only are useful near the ground, trouble with Grab Releases, tons of blind spots, horrible matchups with the majority of the roster, and has trouble with several common neutral and counterpick stages such as Final Destination, Yoshi's Island and Lylat Cruise.

In short: When Lucas is moving, then it's only down.

 

[Frown]

He's a horrible character whose only upsides are his ridiculously fast FSmash and his awesome recovery.

Otherwise, he sucks. A lot. Laggy attacks, aerials which only are useful near the ground, trouble with Grab Releases, tons of blind spots, horrible matchups with the majority of the roster, and has trouble with several common neutral and counterpick stages such as Final Destination, Yoshi's Island and Lylat Cruise.

In short: When Lucas is moving, then it's only down.

Thank you for contributing, Spadefox. Summaries like this one are way better than "Sonic should be higher".

 

[Collective of Bears]

Thank you for contributing, Spadefox. Summaries like this one are way better than "Sonic should be higher".

Very much so. Spade even used... More than one sentence =O

btw, Mewtwo is top tierz.

 

[Red Arremer]

btw, Mewtwo is top tierz.

Noone ever doubted that.

 

[JUDGE]

why i C.PAWNCH the worst???
i don't check that.

 

[thespymachine]

SS
Metaknight

S
Marth
Mr. Game & Watch

A
Wario
ROB
Snake
Olimar

B
Falco
Diddy Kong
Ice Climbers
King Dedede

C
Lucario
Pikachu
Donkey Kong
Kirby
Zss
Toon Link
Pit
Peach

...that's all I'm posting.

The top 13 (except Ice Climbers) were done by looking over their match-ups with each other and averaging everything out.

Very radical, I know.

 

[TLMSheikant]

^Marth and game and watch over snake, ddd, falco, wario and diddy....wth?

 

[Red Arremer]

I'd say this person doesn't know about the game at all, and mains or at least secondaries Marth.

 

[MysticKenji]

The top 13 (except Ice Climbers) were done by looking over their match-ups with each other and averaging everything out.

10readthewholeposts

 

[Red Arremer]

I read the whole post, it still makes no sense that R.O.B. is above Snake.

Besides, matchup threads and data is mostly outdated or not really to be trusted, many character boards over- or underestimate their mains.

 

[thespymachine]

Yeah, I realized after finishing the averaging that the list was way off. I just thought I'd post it, to see what people think.

And I don't main or second, or play Marth. I play Pikachu in singles, and Snake in doubles.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

lol. Why even bother with matchup ratios? Screw those. They tend to be created by people who don't really know the matchups. Most good players just....know how matchups work. Those threads look productive but they should be spent more on talking about how to handle the matches rather than what your success chances are.

 

[Ranor469]

@cake- I had done the same thing a few weeks ago, except my results were slightly different and I had done another iteration of it except giving more points for having a good matchup against a good character.
You can see them all on this page- http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7325194&posted=1#post7325194
On the first post i made, it says where my MU ratio sources are. If you think I should change any of the MUs, please let me know and give me a reason why and I will do so.

 

[thespymachine]

@ Terios the Hedgehog - If you've read ANY match-up threads, you would see that nearly all of them are based completely on the subjective part of the match-up. Simply, I was just using the ratios to see what would come out of it.

@ Ranor469 - Wow. That's looks very similar actually. Nice.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I know. I didn't mean to sound like a ****. I was mostly just agreeing with

Besides, matchup threads and data is mostly outdated or not really to be trusted, many character boards over- or underestimate their mains.

It's really hard to do Smash matchups in general because we have different factors like stages.

 

[thespymachine]

It's really hard to do Smash matchups in general because we have different factors like stages.

SOOO true.

 

[JUDGE]

man...... mario has to change his place with lucario

 

[JUDGE]

i don't check why lucario is so high

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Because Lucario is a heck of a lot better then Mario, who BTW is most likely moving down next tier list if he moves at all.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Because Lucario is a heck of a lot better then Mario, who BTW is most likely moving down next tier list if he moves at all.

You probably have little or no Mario knowledge.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You probably have little or no Mario knowledge.

No, I have Mario knowledge.

He's not moving up, thats for sure, and I would not be surprised at all to see Ness get placed over him.

 

[Smeh]

Zero Suit's creeping up there

 

[M.K]

Zero Suit's creeping up there

Well yeah, she wasn't exactly ranked too highly on this list despite her tournament placings/potential, so it's nice to see her move up. (At least above DK, seriously, he does NOT deserve to be that high)

 

[SuperToad]

Wh00t! Snake 2nd!

 

[IxxI]

LOL, Snake being second...?

Is that supposed to be a surprise? T_T

 

[Browny]

lol, 2nd is the first loser

if youre not first, your last

those stupid quotes are actually almost applicable to brawl hahaha