The Official Marth Video Critique Thread

[Shaya]

I could give you a lot of help LFL,

but one of the first things you need to put some effort into yourself is recognising what Snake's PREDICTABLE options are.

Because it's painful to see a Marth get bair'd by a Snake... ever.
And if only 1 out of 5 or so of those bairs hit you, the match would have had different results.
You don't need to be scared of Snake's nair or fair...
You can beat both with spaced uairs easily...

You also need to stop making simple mistakes like misjudgement of grab range (i.e. when you go for grabs and aren't near enough). You also are doing too many mispaced forward airs, allowing the guy to easily grab you.

In short,
If snake is EVER in the air,
YOU SHOULD HAVE NO EXCUSE NOT TO **** HIM.

It is pretty obvious the guy is sandbagging hard against you with his boisterous playstyle. You need to learn how bad Snake's weaknesses are exploited by Marth.

 

[LFL]

Thanks for the advice. Yeah I'm sure he was sandbagging as well unfortunately. Is there anything else i should be working on as well?

 

[Shaya]

Learn how to juggle Snake,
even one that has a fair or nair approaching you.
Learn to shield predictable bairs.

It really comes down to spacing of your aerials...

 

[ElNoNombreHombre]

*Deep breath*

Well, this is the reason I got the capture device I did (to get feedback on my play). I played as Marth in an online tournament recently. The Sonic/Ike player had his Ike critiqued, so I guess it's only fair if I let my Marth get the virtual red pen as well.

I just want to preempt one thing that the Ike boards complained about: yes, the videos have "preserved" the lag.

The official reason for this is so that "the decisions made can be shown in their actual context."

But the real reason is "I accidentally nuked my copy of the homebrew channel when I upgraded to System Menu 4.2 and have not put it back on so I can't record replays over 3 minutes."

Just one last John before I link the videos: keep in mind I'm a Pika main with Marth as a secondary, who until about a month and a half ago had only played With Anyone and Level 9s on any kind of regular basis, please be gentle.

OK, I'm ready to take my knocks now:

ElNoNombreHombre (ENNH) vs Sonic Storm (SBoom)

• Round 1
• Round 2
• Round 3

I think Round 3 is probably the best to critique of the bunch as it had the least lag, so it's a bit more indicative of each player's relative skills, however, they're all included here for completeness.

*Exhale*

 

[I eat nubs. Lol jk ima nub :P]

*Deep breath*

Well, this is the reason I got the capture device I did (to get feedback on my play). I played as Marth in an online tournament recently. The Sonic/Ike player had his Ike critiqued, so I guess it's only fair if I let my Marth get the virtual red pen as well.

I just want to preempt one thing that the Ike boards complained about: yes, the videos have "preserved" the lag.

The official reason for this is so that "the decisions made can be shown in their actual context."

But the real reason is "I accidentally nuked my copy of the homebrew channel when I upgraded to System Menu 4.2 and have not put it back on so I can't record replays over 3 minutes."

Just one last John before I link the videos: keep in mind I'm a Pika main with Marth as a secondary, who until about a month and a half ago had only played With Anyone and Level 9s on any kind of regular basis, please be gentle.

OK, I'm ready to take my knocks now:

ElNoNombreHombre (ENNH) vs Sonic Storm (SBoom)

• Round 1
• Round 2
• Round 3

I think Round 3 is probably the best to critique of the bunch as it had the least lag, so it's a bit more indicative of each player's relative skills, however, they're all included here for completeness.

*Exhale*

Well I'm not going to critique every match and furthermore they were quite laggy on Youtube.

I'm just going to tell you that you need to exploit marth's fthrow more because you have considerably more options from doing that. Against heavies like Ike an fthrow->fsmash is a true combo and always works at the lowest percentages. Always do it because it's like 28% worth of free damage. Also after an fthrow you can see your opponent's reaction. If he DIs upwards then throw in an uair into a juggle. If he DIs up and away then follow him and either fair him, nair him or if he airdodges, grab him again. If you predict the opponent well then you can stylishly run and pivot grab him (they don't usually expect it) and then follow on from there- note that you're then closer to the edge. You grabbed your opponent a lot in the third match and I didn't see you fully exploit the effectiveness of marth's grab game.

GGs nonetheless

 

[ChibixD]

Critique my Marth ^^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5Ard9i2COU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgLXC2XjVyE

I rolled too much because I was nervous @_@

I want both analizations =o

Thanks

 

[I eat nubs. Lol jk ima nub :P]

Critique my Marth ^^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5Ard9i2COU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgLXC2XjVyE

I rolled too much because I was nervous @_@

I want both analizations =o

Thanks

I'll just make a start on critiquing and leave the rest to the real marth pros .

Remember that you don't have to stay trapped in Snake's nair because you can SDI out of it.

Secondly when you're near Snake after you've done a fair (at a low %) you can very easily uair and then utilt him and eventually juggle him. it's sexy and it gives him a lot of damage. Furthermore you could follow up with many combos from there.

And if you powershielded more of Snake's attacks then you could have punished him more. If you think he's gonna do a bair then expect it and powershield it. If otherwise he fastfall airdodges then powershield an ftilt that he may do and then DB combo him. And btw sometimes the red version of DB doesn't have to be used. If Snake is not too far away from you and not too near you when DBing him, use the green version which gives him plenty of damage. If he is quite close to you then try using the blue version which sends him upwards upon which you can fair or nair him in the air, predict an airdodge of his or uair him.

Plus, if you wanna be stylish and really exploit your opponent's bad habits, hit him with DB1 and grab him if he's trying to shield the upcoming combo. If he's not near you when DBing, dtilt him afterwards and followup. Sometimes you can get away with a DB1 to DS at high percentages and near the ledge, for an easy kill. Be unpredictable with your DBs and truly exploit the opponent's urge to shield that combo.

Also you tend to simply throw our your nair but I think it would be better if you spaced your nair as well so you are less likely to get hit if the opponent shields it. Furthermore you get a better chance of hitting him with a tipper nair which is a brilliant killer. By spacing I mean throw out your nair with forward momentum and during the nair, retreat in the air.

Finally you should always mix up your ledge game so as to confuse the Snake player. Of course Snake is excellent at keeping opponents at the edge with fear because of his nades and mines and C4s and mortars. You need to outsmart your opponent in this scenario by, as you did too, stalling using the release->fair->DS recovery but when coming back to the stage you could try jumping and space fairing/nairing or you could just get up without the getup attack and DB/DS your opponent. You could also try the ledgehop airdodge which can often catch out your opponent (but don't rely on this). Finally you could even try the ledgehopped shield breaker which may break a shield or deal good damage and get your opponent away from the ledge.

These are all just a few suggestions.

 

[Player-3]

fastfalling is very good, also

oh, and quit all the rolling

 

[ChibixD]

Hm...
Thanks, I realy dont want nakes near me on the edge so I did that fairs xD
But I will mix up this next time, more grounded uair to combo, mix up fast falled and retrating nairs, to retreating is better do raising nair?

The bairs I get hited was pivot grab fails =/
I will try shield this more, because snakes bair can be punished hard...

I was punishing his ftilts only with DB, i Need try dsmash and fsmash too, i can get some early kills with a tipper fsmash after this ftilt...

Thanks ^^
Waiting for more critique

 

[ElNoNombreHombre]

Well I'm not going to critique every match and furthermore they were quite laggy on Youtube.

I'm just going to tell you that you need to exploit marth's fthrow more because you have considerably more options from doing that. Against heavies like Ike an fthrow->fsmash is a true combo and always works at the lowest percentages. Always do it because it's like 28% worth of free damage. Also after an fthrow you can see your opponent's reaction. If he DIs upwards then throw in an uair into a juggle. If he DIs up and away then follow him and either fair him, nair him or if he airdodges, grab him again. If you predict the opponent well then you can stylishly run and pivot grab him (they don't usually expect it) and then follow on from there- note that you're then closer to the edge. You grabbed your opponent a lot in the third match and I didn't see you fully exploit the effectiveness of marth's grab game.

GGs nonetheless

First off, I'd like to apologize for the hideously late response. Thanks for taking the time to look at my fail of a Marth. I'll try to keep those pointers in mind.

I was hoping for a few more critiques, but I guess the lag scared everyone away. Heh. I'll try to get some less laggy ones and see if that garners a slightly better response.

 

[borjantonio]

critique me!

borja (marth) VS FotuRAN (falco) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCvW0k1Jm-U

 

[GPEternity]

1:17 don’t land on your opponents. Space your landing so you can get your feet safely planted in a good position

2:08 gotta watch that di.

2:14 should have fsmashed him from the font. Or thrown him off the stage.

2:44 needs more ftilt/dtilt.

3:02 you can counter the lasers when he tries those point blank shots.

3:33 again, watch those close landings. You lose your invincibility when you touch the ground so AD won’t work on lasting attacks

3:45 again, use your tilts

4:15 when you get hit by an attack, momentum cancel with your fair.

You do a pretty good job spacing away from his melee range but you don’t use your long tilts to take advantage of that. You also don’t make much use of your SH when you get in close so when you miss an aerial you end up in an awkward position right above him. You can dash attack under his sh lasers also.

 

[Itakio]

I have two matches I'd like critiqued, but mostly just the first one. I think I got a bit unlucky the second match. =P They're both in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq86yfOjr4c

The entry fee was low, so I was testing out usmash's usefulness, which got me punished sometimes, but aside from that I'll be willing to accept criticism on mostly everything.

 

[321BOOM]

Critique my Marth ^^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5Ard9i2COU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgLXC2XjVyE

I rolled too much because I was nervous @_@

I want both analizations =o

Thanks

I really like your marth. Like really.
No critique here, everything seemed fine imo. Just the rolling is quite a bad habit im fond of myself (lol)

I actually use the same tagname CHIBI. Found that funny.
Also funny since, I play with just about the same aggressive style as you.
Odd. Maybe we're clones? :3

 

[ChibixD]

I really like your marth. Like really.
No critique here, everything seemed fine imo. Just the rolling is quite a bad habit im fond of myself (lol)

I actually use the same tagname CHIBI. Found that funny.
Also funny since, I play with just about the same aggressive style as you.
Odd. Maybe we're clones? :3

Thanks ^^I'm better now, I will post more videos soon

 

[LFL]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-14HmyBF1Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkFmHHxQNmk

 

[Pr0phetic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-14HmyBF1Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkFmHHxQNmk

0:11 - Don't roll behind MK, Marth's invincibility isn't very long on his roll. You eat the Dsmash.
0:16 - Ok stop that's three times, don't fish for grabs as MK has serious punishing tools. A DB woulda sufficed just fine here.
1:41 - You made a crucial error here. MK is good at gimping as his multi-hit attacks will quickly take away your second jump. Be careful as to when you use it to survive. You lose the stock.
3:51 - Here is a little technical, it is your job to learn the spacing and lag of MK's canceled glide attack. The MK clearly baited a laggy attack.
4:28 - Refer to 3:51
4:52 - that was too easy for him. PRESSURE MK!!!! If he's gliding over head, challenge him with Uair, you will hit 99% of the time lol.

0:29 - Clearly a DB woulda served better then that DA...
3:34 - DB1 --> UpB will rarely work, a grab woulda been better as it's safer and woulda worked in your favor. You eat a Fsmash.

Your clearly better then your opponent, but here's some extra feedback:

- More motion
- Patch up your Grab Release timing
- Conserve your DJ
- Use more SH Nair, it is very good at pressuring MK and can get in early KOs.
- Your opponent was fairly predictable, especially on the ledge. This is your chance to capitalize and rack up damage, maybe even a kill. I suggest re-watching the vid.
- At low percents, don't hide in your shield so often. A good MK would grab **** you for that, and control the stage.

 

[salsa~]

Yo, I'm from brazil and I want u guys to check out some vids..

please, give me some hints.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUMuZwix5VE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEWcau4lQek

 

[∫unk]

where did you get the yoshi's island texture?

you play like a west coast marth

use more ledge jump (hitting jump when you're on the ledge) to avoid the ledge trap

you have a spotdodging habit when you think you're in trouble... don't immediately spotdodge

looks good though good job!

 

[salsa~]

where did you get the yoshi's island texture?

you play like a west coast marth

use more ledge jump (hitting jump when you're on the ledge) to avoid the ledge trap

you have a spotdodging habit when you think you're in trouble... don't immediately spotdodge

looks good though good job!

send a private message to shaosmash on youtube.. he know those textures things well

I just dont ledge jump cuz I always got owned by fsmashs or bairs when I do that.. then I just cutted off my option list XD

thanks btw ;D

 

[∫unk]

To avoid that hit jump then hold away from the stage so you move backwards first before you move forwards

if they can fsmash you that means they're too close and you can hit them with one of marths planking moves (usually fair)

it's good because basically it's an option they have to predict.. most other option can be beat on reaction.

Like you see rob throw out a f-tilt that's when you jump because he's suffering lag. Mostly try to predict what ledge trap move he's doing, or wait for him to do one then make an option... Until then you stall or just hang on the ledge.

Hope that made sense.

 

[salsa~]

To avoid that hit jump then hold away from the stage so you move backwards first before you move forwards

if they can fsmash you that means they're too close and you can hit them with one of marths planking moves (usually fair)

it's good because basically it's an option they have to predict.. most other option can be beat on reaction.

Like you see rob throw out a f-tilt that's when you jump because he's suffering lag. Mostly try to predict what ledge trap move he's doing, or wait for him to do one then make an option... Until then you stall or just hang on the ledge.

Hope that made sense.

thanks, that definitely made sense.
i'll work on it.

 

[Shadowserpant]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pGkzemMmfA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iK7YC0FIB44

i'd like as detailed a critique as anyone is willing to give, please
in the second video, at 1:10, it glitches (which desyncs the audio for the rest of the video)
what happened was, toon link hit my shield with his full fsmash, and i tumbled onto the ledge. i rolled back, and he intercepted it with a dair

im aware of a lot of very obvious mistakes i made (SB wasn't supposed to be full charge) but i dont mind them being pointed out, and i could probably use alternative suggestions.
so, individual and general please

and thanks yoshq for the replays :]

 

[Duff0]

Match 1:

Not a great idea finishing a DB against a shield (0:19) (0:45)

Your approaches are MAD predictable. It's like you remember one way to approach then you do it 1000 times, then you remember another and start over again. Fortunately your opponent isn't great and couldn't punish it.

Not a great idea to charge a SB to recover from that distance. Regardless if you didn't mean to charge it fully or not, it wasn't necessary.

(3:48) COMPLETELY unnecessary. That wouldn't have even gotten close to killing.

Match 2:

(0:42) Don't want to get on the ledge so early, you'll lose your invincibility. Wait until they're about to upb (and it's not hard at all to call) then get on the ledge. They won't hit you because of your invincibility, and you can punish them when they land on the stage.

Overall Notes:

You use counter in situations where it's not necessary. The main one I saw was when your opponent was above you. Instead of trying to call an attack, you can chill on the ground and wait for them to attack and punish that way (using your shield, you can still cover both options, air dodge or attack). You can even uthrow and reset the situation.

Another good method in this same situation is to use uair. SH, then hold down, and if they come down with an attack, you can uair (holding down auto fast-falls you when you attack, assuming you've hit the peak of your jump). uair can go through like every dair in the game with some decent timing. And, if he air dodges, uair is lag-less enough that you can grab once they land on the ground (then uthrow and try it again)

Your dodging habits got you punished a little, which is okay (everyone does it from time to time), but you didn't switch it up after you got punished (which is not okay) (Ok, you DID do it once, but it didn't look like it was on purpose, lol, and you got punished for the same thing afterwards).

You approach soooo much with a full hop aerial, or a double jump aerial, and against someone good, they will punish you every time when you land. You were getting punished a little vs the Toon Link, and you did recognize it, but you used counter, which is really risky. An easier, (and much less risky) would be to stop approaching like that everytime, and switch it up.

Your overall sense of risk vs reward is lopsided. You like to risk things in situations where its not necessary (back to the counters again). But even with SB too, grab is soo much better against a shield at percents where a fully charged SB won't kill, (you tried it with your opponent at like 20-40 percent a few times) because it keeps your SB unpredictable for the percents where it will kill. Also, the DS when GW was at around 80%. Wouldn't have killed, and was MUCH more risky than a grab, which if used effectively would have gotten just as much damage, and kept your DS fresh for when it really would have killed.

I don't know if you try on purpose or not, but poking a shield with DB. Same thing, the risk is greater than the reward (getting punished if it doesn't poke, vs getting like 8 damage and a reset situation.)

I'll edit with more if I remember the things I forgot while typing.

 

[Shaya]

Salsa,

I noticed multiple opportunities in your first match to use up smash out of shield.
You should really add it to your move list (e.g. 1:19 of the first vid).

 

[Shadowserpant]

thanks so much for the critique duff0 :D

really helpful stuff, i've been trying to implement it as best i can but i've a few problems

i find the timing to uair GW's dair very hard, and i can't do it consistently. i guess i should stick to ground shielding like you said though.

my big problem is that i don't know any ground approaches. i can handle SH aerials fairly well, but i need mixups, and fullhops have always been my way of doing that. but now that you point it out, i can see how risky that is. i just don't kn ow any other ways to approach, though

thanks for the DB tip, that actually never occurred to me. i always thought you should finish off DBs because it'll wear off some shield and they'll punish anyways, but i guess if i only use one or two they'll have less time to punish. i'll definitely try that.

so yeah, ground approaches anyone?

 

[Duff0]

You don't have to approach, at least in the way your thinking (two characters are level, one runs to the other and attacks).

One common approach with everyone is just running and shielding. You don't have to attack every time you approach, and it works, but you absolutely HAVE to mix it up with attacks and dodges, in order to not get ***** by grabs.

Just a retreating shfair can be an amazing attacking approach (or even a stop to your opponents approach).

About the DB on shields:

You can finish it and hope for it to poke (end with down) but you have to make sure that their shield is down. One thing I do is wait a little in between each hit of the DB if their shielding, and if it gets low enough for me to poke it, I'll finish. If not, I'll stop and roll away or w/e to get the hell out.

 

[Shadowserpant]

okay, i'll try that. but the reason i sometimes feel pressed for quicker, offensive approaches is when i play toon link and ROB, because they basically **** me if i back off of them for even a second

 

[salsa~]

Salsa,

I noticed multiple opportunities in your first match to use up smash out of shield.
You should really add it to your move list (e.g. 1:19 of the first vid).

I'll work on it, thanks (:

 

[InterimOfZeal]

These are all random friendlies from a little bit ago. I just learned about what to do offa throws last night, so my grab/throw game is a lil sloppy.

But uhhh, any comments or crits would be nice. :D

Me, teamed with an awesome Aussie MK:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4NCUG2Rtkw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sVcFng_ytE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GAHNc8OVoE


Izzy (Marth) vs Underload (Snake)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0Hl0MVM6jA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14TR051-AY4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oE22xXiIe_4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FcHsNgAmDs

Izzy (Marth) vs Bees (ROB)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26F_GHTd7_A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1Xk23DrhYY

 

[Player-3]

i only watched one match vs the snake, because i don't have much time, but...

-you used ALOT of smashes, and agaisnt snake that is bad... because he has the ftilt
-you rarely juggled him with uair... you just waited for him to land so you could usmash or something, uair is an amazing juggle move
-you got tech chased... alot, and kept running into the utilt, agaisnt snake when you're at ~100 space like crazy and don't get near him
-be in the air more, you spent most of your time on the ground... where snake *****
-when trying to get back to the ground against snake, do NOT be anywhere near him , just steer clear of him and reset to a neutral position to avoid a shieldgrab/utilt
-use DB to punish......EVERYTHING :U
-nice jabbing
- fair more, you used alot of nair, and that's shaya's job

 

[Duff0]

Your DI is garbage

 

[Pr0phetic]

Your DI is garbage

Your criticisms are unhelpful. Instead of poking fingers and belittling his faults, help hi mto get better at what he is lacking. Keep that garbage outta this thread.

 

[LFL]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXkBXFNSBG8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFLgyjHr7Wc

 

[InterimOfZeal]

i only watched one match vs the snake, because i don't have much time, but...

-you used ALOT of smashes, and agaisnt snake that is bad... because he has the ftilt
-you rarely juggled him with uair... you just waited for him to land so you could usmash or something, uair is an amazing juggle move
-you got tech chased... alot, and kept running into the utilt, agaisnt snake when you're at ~100 space like crazy and don't get near him
-be in the air more, you spent most of your time on the ground... where snake *****
-when trying to get back to the ground against snake, do NOT be anywhere near him , just steer clear of him and reset to a neutral position to avoid a shieldgrab/utilt
-use DB to punish......EVERYTHING :U
-nice jabbing
- fair more, you used alot of nair, and that's shaya's job

Thanks. Started using more uair, it's a pretty tight move.

Tilting instead of smashing really helps. Jabs, too. :D

Started playing more air-based, it's helping. I read on these herr boards to stay on the ground vs Snake.

tyty

Your DI is garbage

tyty

Your criticisms are unhelpful. Instead of poking fingers and belittling his faults, help hi mto get better at what he is lacking. Keep that garbage outta this thread.

Is all gravy. I can ignore it, and just steal whatever advice is there.

tytho

 

[∫unk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXkBXFNSBG8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFLgyjHr7Wc

youre almost at the level where you have to just figure out stuff on your own as in youre not making huge mistakes just a bunch of little ones

be more wary of defensive habits from yourself and the opponent (spotdodge and rolls), when are they doing these things?

especially spotdodge... spotdodge isn't that good you're not moving anywhere and you're not attacking, so basically you're hoping the opponent messes up. that's why relying on spotdodge is a bad strategy. similar thinking with rolls except now you're giving up positioning.

i can tell you more on aim sorry i didnt play you yesterday i played someone for too long and didn't feel like playing after lol

 

[Player-3]

Thanks. Started using more uair, it's a pretty tight move.

Tilting instead of smashing really helps. Jabs, too. :D

Started playing more air-based, it's helping. I read on these herr boards to stay on the ground vs Snake.

tyty



tyty



Is all gravy. I can ignore it, and just steal whatever advice is there.

tytho

stay NEAR the ground, not on it

 

[KillL0ck]

Agreed with Junk, your spot dodging/rolling habits are a bit costly considering marth has a great pressure game. I like to go with the mindset of "Dodge only when you need to dodge" via grab(Other things like charged smashes can be acceptable but risky in specific situations, there's other times it's necessary also). Stop dodging when they dodge is another thing you can improve on, you take away a great situation for yourself that could earn you free damage.

I'm not sure if B.C has any of these type of players, but with your dodging habit you would be cooked bacon whenever an MK(Example) spawns and just baits the dodge and downsmashes/forward smashes.

I also noticed the overused forward smashing, something which is either
A. ur scurred.
B. Bad wifi habit.
C. You're sandbagging hard.

Another thing, you need to powershield projectiles more, or at the very least just shield them. No point in giving rob free damage when it could of easily been dealt with.

I think I said this before when I critiqued one of your older videos, but sometimes it's just better to wait for your opponent to do something. Most of the time in a neutral stance most scrubs will try and dodge behind you or just spot dodge, capitalize on this with a downtilt/dancing blade/grab.

Also I guess we can play on Wifi sometime, I rarely play as marth on wifi(soooo baddd) though so you'll just have to face my snake. I can teach you a few tricks so hit me up on AiB/MSN/AIM.

 

[LFL]

Thank you Junk and KillL0ck. My pressure game does need work, i agree. I'm always up for wifi and getting my *** handed to me. Best way to learn imo.

 

[Esca]

Try and UP-B less as well. You're doing it too much at the wrong times.

Basically because you don't want to trade hits with a poorly spaced upb.