The Official Election 2008 Thread!

[Eor]

His idea of change is more "bipartisanship, not doing karl rove type political attacks, respecting the other side, not being part of the system and therefore able to change it", things like that. I'm annoyed with him talking about change, mainly because everyone else is just stealing it and the word is beaten to death for me, even before it became everyone's slogan.

 

[RDK]

His idea of change is more "bipartisanship, not doing karl rove type political attacks, respecting the other side, not being part of the system and therefore able to change it", things like that. I'm annoyed with him talking about change, mainly because everyone else is just stealing it and the word is beaten to death for me, even before it became everyone's slogan.

But his whining about him "not being part of the system" is just bullcrap. For all intents and purposes, he is the system.

I just hate how he acts like he's the poor, picked-on black guy, and how his constant montra is "change" when he's given us no reason to believe his plan will be radically different than what any other politician has to offer.

It's like I said: it's basically a matter of the lesser evil. One candidate's plans and policies are better than the others, but not by very much at all. They still suck.

 

[Aesir]

There's more then McCain and Obama running for office, if you're really not turned onto either of the major parties maybe you should look into the greens (Mckinney), the libertarians(Barr) for instance since they both have candidates running for office.

in any case you shouldn't vote least worst many Americans never really understood the saying "It's better to vote for the Candidate you believe in and lose, then to vote for the candidate you don't believe in and win. Because that Candidate will surely betray you"

Voting least worst essentially tells that least worst candidate that he can take your vote for granted. They have little expectations other then for you to be the least worst. Under that mentality you don't make any demands, or expect anything to change, just as long as that candidate is better then the other guy it won't really matter.

Sadly thats what happens in a two party system.

 

[Jam Stunna]

I suppose that my biggest disappointment about this election is the complete lack of discussion about the constitutional basis for the presidency. All we keep hearing is how they're going to put more cops on the streets, raise teacher's pay, battle special interests, save homeowners, etc. And all of those promises have absolutely no basis in constitutional law.

After warrantless wire-tapping, torture debates and all the other rule-of-law complaints made against the current administration, I'm more than a little puzzled that more people don't seem concerned about the debate over executive power in this nation.

 

[RDK]

There's more then McCain and Obama running for office, if you're really not turned onto either of the major parties maybe you should look into the greens (Mckinney), the libertarians(Barr) for instance since they both have candidates running for office.

in any case you shouldn't vote least worst many Americans never really understood the saying "It's better to vote for the Candidate you believe in and lose, then to vote for the candidate you don't believe in and win. Because that Candidate will surely betray you"

Voting least worst essentially tells that least worst candidate that he can take your vote for granted. They have little expectations other then for you to be the least worst. Under that mentality you don't make any demands, or expect anything to change, just as long as that candidate is better then the other guy it won't really matter.

Sadly thats what happens in a two party system.

Uh, I vote libertarian. My fault for not making that clearer in my post. My point was that neither of the two candidates that actually have a shot at winning are any good.

I suppose that my biggest disappointment about this election is the complete lack of discussion about the constitutional basis for the presidency. All we keep hearing is how they're going to put more cops on the streets, raise teacher's pay, battle special interests, save homeowners, etc. And all of those promises have absolutely no basis in constitutional law.

After warrantless wire-tapping, torture debates and all the other rule-of-law complaints made against the current administration, I'm more than a little puzzled that more people don't seem concerned about the debate over executive power in this nation.

Which is why I vote libertarian. The less governement interference (which breeds things like wire-tapping and rule-of-law garbage), the better.

 

[DoH]

I suppose that my biggest disappointment about this election is the complete lack of discussion about the constitutional basis for the presidency. All we keep hearing is how they're going to put more cops on the streets, raise teacher's pay, battle special interests, save homeowners, etc. And all of those promises have absolutely no basis in constitutional law.

After warrantless wire-tapping, torture debates and all the other rule-of-law complaints made against the current administration, I'm more than a little puzzled that more people don't seem concerned about the debate over executive power in this nation.

I'm fairly certain that at some point Obama has mentioned that Biden will not be an 'extra constitutional' VP, in contrast to Cheney, or something of that sort.

 

[CorruptFate]

The thing that Im hearing is that everybody thinks that palin is amazing, and yes I think that she is better then McCain and could help him out. As the poles are showing it did and he is ahead of Obama right now I think. How ever until Bush jr. took office the VP didn't do to much so unless McCain does die in office then odds are she wont be doing to much. And the fact of the matter is McCain knows that so he picked someone that would get people on his side that would other wise not vote for him or were undecided, knowing full well that she wont be doing much at all.

 

[swim2007]

updating the first post


status: in progress

will finish in the morning

 

[Eor]

Man wheres Kur, I feel like debating and his ridiculousness is no where to be found

 

[Aesir]

Take down Mike Gravel, he's not running when he lost the libertarian bid he kinda gave up on running.

"The loss by Gravel also marked the end of a political career that saw him eliminated from Democratic debates for failure to meet the fundraising or polling thresholds. He said the Democratic Party no longer represented his values because it continues to sustain the Iraq war, the military-industrial complex and imperialism.

“I just ended my political career,” he said. “From 15 years old to now, my political career is over, and it’s no big deal. I’m a writer, I’m a lecturer, I’m going to push the issues of freedom and liberty. I’m going to push those issues until the day I die.”

From -http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/05/25/libertarians-pick-barr-as-presidential-nominee/

Bob Barr has the Libertarian Ticket and Cynthia McKinney has the Greens, and Nader obviously Independent.

 

[RDK]

I liked Barr better than Gravel anyway.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Ok, so I just saw McCain's address about suspending the campaigns to deal with the economic crisis. People are telling me that McCain just won the General Election with this move, and that saddens me a LOT.

McCain didn't do anything spectacular. McCain did his job.

People are trying to tell me that McCain made this hard decision to leave the trail to go to the Senate, but isn't that what both him and Obama should have done the instant they found out about the economic crisis? Shouldn't they have immidiately suspended both campaigns to go back to doing what we pay them to do anyway? Why are people saying that this was such a hard decision when it was really the only right one to make?

And why are we commending this guy for doing what he should be doing anyway?

 

[manhunter098]

Because he did it first I would guess? But really I dont think he has won anything with this move. Either way the media and the people are not the same, though often the people do adopt the position of the media.

We really probably could have avoided the entire mess though by having a representative government that actually REPRESENTS the peoples wishes. I also question even acting on this supposed crisis, since I prefer the government to take a more hands off approach to the economy, or to at least decentralize the way it controls the economy.

 

[RDK]

Our current representative government system is inherently flawed. Until we do away with that, it's not going to get much better, folks.

And laissez faire is the way to go.

 

[manhunter098]

Well I wouldnt say laissez faire is the best way to go, but the government is definitely too hands on consider how massive and diverse a country we are. What the feds try to do is balance things nationally rather than regionally, which is how any government intervention in the economy should be done.

And I definitely agree that our method of representation is limiting itself. Though going fully democratic wouldnt really help, the majority cant be trusted to make the best decision, especially not with the influence the general media has on the views of the average American. If only people were more greedy. Then we would actually care about getting people into office that represented our views on what truly matters, which most people dont understand. I guess though that its not so much the system that is flawed, but rather the people, who dont care to know enough to make the right choices.

I think the fundamental flaw with a representative government (or any degree of democracy for that matter) is that it relies on people actually knowing what is in their best interest, or at least having a very vague idea of it, most Americans I would say are hopelessly misled, and I dont even know for sure that I am not among them.

 

[Aesir]

The worst part about all these bailouts is it tells big business you can do whatever you want we'll bail you out. There's virtually no strings attached to this they dropped the ball now here comes the congress with tax payer money to bail them out. (big surprise.)

Then we would actually care about getting people into office that represented our views on what truly matters, which most people dont understand. I guess though that its not so much the system that is flawed, but rather the people, who dont care to know enough to make the right choices.

Honestly it's a flaw with the electoral college it created a two party system for a while we got away with voting least worst but now voting least worst doesn't cut it. The system is rotten to it's core, and most are oblivious to the fact if the majority ever knew how fundamentally flawed the electoral college was it would quickly die.

I think the fundamental flaw with a representative government (or any degree of democracy for that matter) is that it relies on people actually knowing what is in their best interest, or at least having a very vague idea of it, most Americans I would say are hopelessly misled, and I dont even know for sure that I am not among them.

It's more about giving people a choice rather then the illusion of a choice. Many people never look past the two parties. Though this is mostly because other parties never get any chance to voice their perposals to the people. Generally people know what's good for the country and know what they want, but they settle for least worst so they really horrible guy doens't get in.

But if you give them more choices by opening up the platform not just for president but all areas of government they you might actually get something that works.

Or something that works a lot better then what we have now.

 

[manhunter098]

Well the thing is that innocent people were also hurt by this and someone should try to make sure they arent punished for making good decisions. I think though that the best option would have been to assimilate the companies into the government somehow and through the government have people pay back the loans for as much as they could afford. Not sure how much strain that would put on the treasury though, but it would sufficiently punish the companies for their poor business choices (since the company would no longer exist) it would prevent a loss of jobs, and it would allow any innocent people affected to work things out. But Im not an economist so I cant really say, overall though the governments decision could certainly lead to some very negative impacts.

And I also suppose that simply letting it be would also work in the long run, not really sure if my idea would though.

 

[Aesir]

Well the thing is that innocent people were also hurt by this and someone should try to make sure they arent punished for making good decisions. I think though that the best option would have been to assimilate the companies into the government somehow and through the government have people pay back the loans for as much as they could afford. Not sure how much strain that would put on the treasury though, but it would sufficiently punish the companies for their poor business choices (since the company would no longer exist) it would prevent a loss of jobs, and it would allow any innocent people affected to work things out. But Im not an economist so I cant really say, overall though the governments decision could certainly lead to some very negative impacts.

And I also suppose that simply letting it be would also work in the long run, not really sure if my idea would though.

It's like we're ****ed if we do, ****ed if we don't. It's just funny because we could have avoided all of this many where aware that problems would arise in the future but they were never acted upon. Doing the right thing, usually costs more money then doing the wrong thing in the short run.

Leaving it alone honestly it would make the current system crumble it's a corrupt system anyway so maybe that would be good it would give us a chance to start with something that isn't as corrupt.

The only problem about letting it crash is the simple fact that FDR died 60 years ago.

 

[manhunter098]

Well that is why I had the idea of the government taking over the companies. It punishes the people who made the actual bad decisions, since they no longer own the company and thus cant make money from it, but it keeps the loans active so the people can still pay back the money they owe and stuff, it would just go to the government which would use it to pay the rehired employees (lower level of course) of those companies that it took over. But of course that idea would never really pass since Im sure that there is some law preventing it, that and it might not even work anyways.

 

[RDK]

Well I wouldnt say laissez faire is the best way to go, but the government is definitely too hands on consider how massive and diverse a country we are. What the feds try to do is balance things nationally rather than regionally, which is how any government intervention in the economy should be done.

But by all rights, the feds should have nothing to do whatsoever with my business, just like they should have nothing to do with interfering in my personal rights. If I'm a successful businessman and earn my money because I'm good at what I do, why is it suddenly the government's duty to stick its hand in my pocket and give it to people and corporations who failed because they simply made bad decisions?

And I definitely agree that our method of representation is limiting itself. Though going fully democratic wouldnt really help, the majority cant be trusted to make the best decision, especially not with the influence the general media has on the views of the average American. If only people were more greedy. Then we would actually care about getting people into office that represented our views on what truly matters, which most people dont understand. I guess though that its not so much the system that is flawed, but rather the people, who dont care to know enough to make the right choices.

I wouldn't trust the majority of Americans either. We're still a highly religious country (people "prayed" to help them determine whether to vote for Bush in or not, and look where that got us) and an utterly disgusting amount of Americans don't even know who our current president and VP are.

Short answer: people are dumb. The majority can't be trusted with the welfare of our country, because the majority are idiots.

I think the fundamental flaw with a representative government (or any degree of democracy for that matter) is that it relies on people actually knowing what is in their best interest, or at least having a very vague idea of it, most Americans I would say are hopelessly misled, and I dont even know for sure that I am not among them.

Well, look at where it's got us now. Aesir's point about "the least worst" is absolutely right. Instead of voting for someone you actually want to see in office because their ideals line up with yours, people shrug it off and vote for the one that's most likely to win and only lines up with about half of their ideals. You can vote however you want, but don't expect any change in the system if you consistently vote party line no matter the quality of the candidates.

 

[The Executive]

I wouldn't trust the majority of Americans either. We're still a highly religious country (people "prayed" to help them determine whether to vote for Bush in or not, and look where that got us) and an utterly disgusting amount of Americans don't even know who our current president and VP are.

Short answer: people are dumb. The majority can't be trusted with the welfare of our country, because the majority are idiots.

Seriously? We're talking GWB and Cheney, right? With the massive ****storm of hatred towards our current POTUS & VP, there are people out there who still don't know who they are?

Seriously?

 

[RDK]

Seriously? We're talking GWB and Cheney, right? With the massive ****storm of hatred towards our current POTUS & VP, there are people out there who still don't know who they are?

Seriously?

I don't remember exactly what show it was, but I saw a TV show once where a guy went around and had a camera crew film him asking people who the current president or vice president was, and there were at least a good 10 people on the program who honestly had no idea what their names were.

To compound it, this one chick, after thinking about it for a long time, said "I'm not sure, but I can do this!" and preceded to perform a stripper-esque dance in front of the camera. Yay America.

 

[CorruptFate]

Thats just sad . I dont know enough about the money crises going on to really make a choice about what I think about it so if someone could post a link to a GOOD sight about it or just kind of some it up that would be nice . But it sounds like noone here is happy with what they are doing so what are some other ideas that you guys have?

Also on the thing about McCain having won because he decided to do his job, I haven't heard that he has won but I have heard that about 50% of Americans will vote for whoever can "fix" this.

 

[Aesir]

No McCain probably hurt himself on this, all this is simply put is a political stunt nothing else.

Washington is saying they can go on with the debates because their presence isn't needed Obama's going ahead with the debates and if McCain doesn't show up he'll lose the election.

Everyones calling this a Political stunt and hopefully it'll sink into McCains head that no ones buying this and he'll drop the whole thing all together.

 

[RDK]

hopefully it'll sink into McCains head that no ones buying this and he'll drop the whole thing all together.

Hopefully it'll sink in to McCain's head that on one is buying this and he will drop the whole election all together.

 

[The Executive]

I don't remember exactly what show it was, but I saw a TV show once where a guy went around and had a camera crew film him asking people who the current president or vice president was, and there were at least a good 10 people on the program who honestly had no idea what their names were.

To compound it, this one chick, after thinking about it for a long time, said "I'm not sure, but I can do this!" and preceded to perform a stripper-esque dance in front of the camera. Yay America.

I thought our education system would at least educate people as to who the "leaders of the free world" were. Guess not.

Thats just sad . I dont know enough about the money crises going on to really make a choice about what I think about it so if someone could post a link to a GOOD sight about it or just kind of some it up that would be nice . But it sounds like noone here is happy with what they are doing so what are some other ideas that you guys have?

Also on the thing about McCain having won because he decided to do his job, I haven't heard that he has won but I have heard that about 50% of Americans will vote for whoever can "fix" this.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=195785&page=2 (post #18)

 

[CorruptFate]

Thx for that. So what do people think about the debate? I heard right after it the pannal said there was no clear winner, but then later that night all the news stations were saying that Obama "won" the debate. Also because Palin dances around questions more then Bush around problems I can wait to see the debate between her and Biden.

 

[Eor]

I'm interested in watching the vice presidential debates, though I think there's a good chance that it won't be as exciting or amusing as people are hoping. Biden is not likely to go too strongly against Palin, he doesn't want to be seen as cruel towards her and the media will repeat any Gaffes she has. Palin is probably more trying to learn about damage control then scoring any strong points against Biden, and with Biden most likely not strongly going after her it might just be boring. Though there is always the chance Biden just crushes or her Palin pulls some huge surprises and comes out looking better then Biden

 

[M.K]

Biden said something the other day that struck me as something that a crazy person would say....

"Paying taxes is a form of patriotism for America."

Seriously? SERIOUSLY? If this isn't a "you guys are going to get beat into the ground with taxes" line, then i don't know what is.

 

[IWontGetOverTheDam]

^Better than Palin. She counts being able to see Russia from Alaska as "foreign policy."

Man, I don't worry as much about McCain as I do about Palin. It scares me to think that someday, she could be an elderly man's heartbeat away from running the most powerful country on Earth...

 

[cman]

Biden said something the other day that struck me as something that a crazy person would say....

"Paying taxes is a form of patriotism for America."

Seriously? SERIOUSLY? If this isn't a "you guys are going to get beat into the ground with taxes" line, then i don't know what is.

1) Patriotism/nationalism, as a concept, is dumb.

2) If you do suscribe to the whole patriotism thing, then yes it is. You are helping support the military, and various government programs far more than you are by waving a flag infront of your house or w/e, and willingness to give up a piece of your income shows your devotion more than saying the pledge.

 

[DoH]

paying taxes is supporting the government, which is in a sense patriotic; people just don't like to be reminded that taxes exist.

Has everyone in here seen the SNL Sarah Palin skits. They're ****ing amazing.

 

[CorruptFate]

^Better than Palin. She counts being able to see Russia from Alaska as "foreign policy."

Man, I don't worry as much about McCain as I do about Palin. It scares me to think that someday, she could be an elderly man's heartbeat away from running the most powerful country on Earth...

I heard some statistics today, I don't know how true they could really be but aparently there is a 50% chance that palin will take over in 2 years if McCain became Pres. I'm not quite sure how you would come up with somthing like that but it is interesting to think about.

im looking forward to this debate, she dances around questions enough that she is getting Paroded for it. So I think that it'll just be funny to watch as Jim (I think that was his name) try to get a real respawns out of her.

 

[RDK]

Biden said something the other day that struck me as something that a crazy person would say....

"Paying taxes is a form of patriotism for America."

Seriously? SERIOUSLY? If this isn't a "you guys are going to get beat into the ground with taxes" line, then i don't know what is.

^Better than Palin. She counts being able to see Russia from Alaska as "foreign policy."

Man, I don't worry as much about McCain as I do about Palin. It scares me to think that someday, she could be an elderly man's heartbeat away from running the most powerful country on Earth...

1) Patriotism/nationalism, as a concept, is dumb.

2) If you do suscribe to the whole patriotism thing, then yes it is. You are helping support the military, and various government programs far more than you are by waving a flag infront of your house or w/e, and willingness to give up a piece of your income shows your devotion more than saying the pledge.

Both Biden and Palin are equally bad. On one hand we have a duo of socialist dirtbags who want to raise our taxes and distribute the wealth to those who don't deserve it, and on the flipside we have a 70-year old Bush and a nobody governor from Alaksa who thinks Creation science should be taught alongside evolution in public schools.

Either way, our country is ****ed.

 

[cman]

Both Biden and Palin are equally bad. On one hand we have a duo of socialist dirtbags who want to raise our taxes and distribute the wealth to those who don't deserve it, and on the flipside we have a 70-year old Bush and a nobody governor from Alaksa who thinks Creation science should be taught alongside evolution in public schools.

Either way, our country is ****ed.

Why did i get quoted in that?

 

[RDK]

Because I was addressing Biden's bull**** about paying taxes as patriotism, and your post was relevant to the topic.

 

[Amide]

Both Biden and Palin are equally bad. On one hand we have a duo of socialist dirtbags who want to raise our taxes and distribute the wealth to those who don't deserve it, and on the flipside we have a 70-year old Bush and a nobody governor from Alaksa who thinks Creation science should be taught alongside evolution in public schools.

Either way, our country is ****ed.

Yes, they will distribute wealth to those that don't deserve it. But you get lower taxes unless you make 250,000+ a year.

 

[TVTMaster]

Meh, it's the abortion issue for me. Everything else is second fiddle until we stop massacring millions because of an arbitrary idea of when something is human or not. (There is zero difference between a baby right before birth and one an hour later, out of the womb.)

 

[Deleted member]

Um, I guarantee you absolutely no doctor would abort a baby that late in the term.

While I don't agree with Obama having 256mb it's still pretty hilarious

 

[M.K]

Yes, they will distribute wealth to those that don't deserve it. But you get lower taxes unless you make 250,000+ a year.

They distribute wealth to the crackpots and the dirt level ghetto that hasn't been skimmed by the police yet.

Why in the hell should someone who has EARNED their money and EARNED their level in society be, for lack of a better word, subjected to this kind of scrutiny?
EVERYONE will have to pay, just you wait. Obama will tax the fuuck out of America until we have nothing left to pay for except our freedom.