The Official Election 2008 Thread!

[swim2007]

Has anyone else seen this?

It's ridiculous. The GOP had a booth selling buttons that said "If Obama is president…will we still call it the White House?"

...wow...

The views of a few radicals and their products should not be used to reflect the GOP as a whole.

It doesn't matter if it's stable now or not; the fact is that thousands of troops lost their lives for a cause many people would deem unworthy and pointless. Bush showed the American people how much he cared about our say in things when he dragged us into an unwarranted war.

Thousands of troops lost their lives for no point??? Hmmm 9/11 ring a bell? Oh ya, that's where everyone died in the World Trade Center attacks...How can you say that the cause is pointless when there hasn't been another attack since, and we are fighting the people who caused our nation so much pain on that fateful day?

 

[RDK]

Thousands of troops lost their lives for no point??? Hmmm 9/11 ring a bell? Oh ya, that's where everyone died in the World Trade Center attacks...How can you say that the cause is pointless when there hasn't been another attack since, and we are fighting the people who caused our nation so much pain on that fateful day?

9/11 was a product of our government not being able to stay out of Middle Eastern business. This all goes back to Roosevelt's policy of ****ing around in other nations and trying to play world police. It's not our job; leave other nations to degenerate on their own, or we'll end up getting kicked in the *** for it.

 

[lonejedi]

9/11 was a product of our government not being able to stay out of Middle Eastern business. This all goes back to Roosevelt's policy of ****ing around in other nations and trying to play world police. It's not our job; leave other nations to degenerate on their own, or we'll end up getting kicked in the *** for it.

Actually, 9/11 had alot to do with other things than that. The Middle East hates us for many reasons but prob the biggest reason is our support of Israel. We support a country that most Middle Eastern Countries hate.

 

[RDK]

Actually, 9/11 had alot to do with other things than that. The Middle East hates us for many reasons but prob the biggest reason is our support of Israel. We support a country that most Middle Eastern Countries hate.

Which would not have happened if we just stayed out of those countries altogether. Why give our support to another country if it's going to get us bombed and cost us the lives of thousands of innocent people (not counting the gross numbers of human lives lost in the war ON TOP of 9/11)?

 

[lonejedi]

Which would not have happened if we just stayed out of those countries altogether. Why give our support to another country if it's going to get us bombed and cost us the lives of thousands of innocent people (not counting the gross numbers of human lives lost in the war ON TOP of 9/11)?

Are you serious? That's by far one of the most selfish things I've ever heard. So I guess we should have just left Great Britian and France alone in WWII. I mean, if we would have just stayed neurtal, we would not have got bombed by Japan.

 

[RDK]

Are you serious? That's by far one of the most selfish things I've ever heard. So I guess we should have just left Great Britian and France alone in WWII. I mean, if we would have just stayed neurtal, we would not have got bombed by Japan.

If you don't think Israel can hold its own against Iran and every other country that doesn't like them in the Middle East, then there's something wrong with you.

Which is beside the point; there's no reason to actively support them via military action, unless they're threatened with being nuked off the face of the earth.

 

[SaxDude93]

Are you serious? That's by far one of the most selfish things I've ever heard. So I guess we should have just left Great Britian and France alone in WWII. I mean, if we would have just stayed neurtal, we would not have got bombed by Japan.

I think the difference is that Hitler was insane and was going to take over the world. At least most of Europe. Hitler was a real threat. The Middle East isn't, when compared to a Hitler.

 

[lonejedi]

If you don't think Israel can hold its own against Iran and every other country that doesn't like them in the Middle East, then there's something wrong with you.

Which is beside the point; there's no reason to actively support them via military action, unless they're threatened with being nuked off the face of the earth.

Lol, are you serious? Have you seen the size of Israel? They're one of the smallest countries in the middle east. Yes they have nukes, but just because you have nukes doesn't mean you are invincible. Why can't we support someone with weapons anytime? We support Israel by word of mouth and pressure. The U.S doesn't support Israel so that Israel can take over other countries, we support Israel to defend them. We supply Israel with weapons as a defense, not a means of military domination.

I think the difference is that Hitler was insane and was going to take over the world. At least most of Europe. Hitler was a real threat. The Middle East isn't, when compared to a Hitler.

How is the middle east not a threat? They bombed the World Trade Centers TWICE. That's right, it wasn't the first time the WTC's were bombed, back during Clinton's term it was bombed, Clinton didn't have the balls to do anything, and look what happened, they got bombed even worse.

 

[Kur]

@Kur:

1. No, I think you missed the point, or maybe twisted it in your mind in order to deny the true meaning.
2. That second quote wasn't said by me.

Oh come on now. You know that the GOP would never make a button that said something so racist as "The white house will have to be called the black house because a black guy will be living in it."

And honestly that is NOT the first thing I though when I read the button. It seems that all the alleged 'racism' in this presidential race is coming from the Democrat side. They continually try to claim that everybody who doesn't support Obama only does so because they are racist. They bring up things like "65% of white voters in (whatever state) voted for Hilary instead of Obama, clearly showing race is playing a factor in this primary" Yet they fail to bring up that 97% of black voters voted for Obama.

The joke behind the button was that Obama would make a big deal about the white house being called white.



And sorry for the misquote. I meant to quote Crimson King I think.

I think the difference is that Hitler was insane and was going to take over the world. At least most of Europe. Hitler was a real threat. The Middle East isn't, when compared to a Hitler.

Oh! well as long as the middle east isn't as bad as Hitler...

Are you nuts?

That is like saying "I don't care if you shoot me with a .357, it isn't nearly as bad as a .44 mag."

Just because the middle east isn't Hitler, does not mean we can just ignore them. We have to prevent them from becoming as big a threat as Hitler. And if you think Saddam wasn't insane, or wanted to take over other countries, then somebody lied to you my friend.

 

[Johnthegalactic]

I think the difference is that Hitler was insane and was going to take over the world. At least most of Europe. Hitler was a real threat. The Middle East isn't, when compared to a Hitler.

Actually, although not unified like the Nazi empire was, amazing how quickly they arose, but then fell, there are many Muslims that have extremist beliefs, and would like to bring the whole world under the Muslim religion.
Not to say, Christians have acted like this.
I think it is disgusting to forcibly attempt to make someone be a Christian, Muslim, Jew, or whatever else you can imagine that can try to make you do something.
Although, explaining your beliefs and asking someone about theirs and stuff is different, albiet, uncomfortable for some.

 

[~L~]

deleted for idiocy

 

[Johnthegalactic]

Well, Obama is technically a Dark Horse candidate, sounds kind of cool, not really though, they often have a shady past, Obama, difficult to pin facts on them, Obama, and often cause this country much more trouble than Bush has, which, Obama is not in office, I do not want him in office, and think he will be the average Dark Horse and cause more harm than good.
Other than that, I will not say he is a Muslim, because I cannot prove it, and his Muslim father did not raise him, he abandoned Obama.
Before I really knew about Obama, i thought of any black guy who would be running for president one with an African-American, and by that I mean, ancestors suffered under the souths slave system, man.
This guy seems like a joke to me, as all he does is yell, Change, when his views are about the same as any other Democratic candidates.
Sorry guys, but there were better candidates on the Dems than Obama, just fate would have it, he looks the best, sounds the best, and probably won't be the best.

Do not call me racist! I have black friends, an aunt who is adopted from India, and is obviously a different race, and she is my family, just as anyone else at the reunion table! Points finger and shakes it while staring at a suspicious person.

 

[RDK]

Well, Obama is technically a Dark Horse candidate, sounds kind of cool, not really though, they often have a shady past, Obama, difficult to pin facts on them, Obama, and often cause this country much more trouble than Bush has, which, Obama is not in office, I do not want him in office, and think he will be the average Dark Horse and cause more harm than good.
Other than that, I will not say he is a Muslim, because I cannot prove it, and his Muslim father did not raise him, he abandoned Obama.
Before I really knew about Obama, i thought of any black guy who would be running for president one with an African-American, and by that I mean, ancestors suffered under the souths slave system, man.
This guy seems like a joke to me, as all he does is yell, Change, when his views are about the same as any other Democratic candidates.
Sorry guys, but there were better candidates on the Dems than Obama, just fate would have it, he looks the best, sounds the best, and probably won't be the best.

Do not call me racist! I have black friends, an aunt who is adopted from India, and is obviously a different race, and she is my family, just as anyone else at the reunion table! Points finger and shakes it while staring at a suspicious person.

I'm not an Obama fan either, but he's no better than Bush 2.0 (McCain) who wants to keep us in Iraq for, and I quote, "another 100 years".

 

[Crimson King]

I do not support Obama. His "former" muslim reverend publically hates Americans. Who can say whether Obama in reality feels the same way as well?

It was Islamic Arababians who bombed the World Trade Center.

The things that would be possible for him to do if he was elected into office....

It boils down to"I just don't trust him."

At least with Hilary,until she left,you knew what you were getting.

I do not know very much about the republican side's representitive. But it seems that Obama is far more popular.

You are so incredibly stupid that I had to comment. Jeremiah Wright is a Christian pastor. The rest pretty much just invalidates itself.

 

[Johnthegalactic]

You are so incredibly stupid that I had to comment. Jeremiah Wright is a Christian pastor. The rest pretty much just invalidates itself.

Jeremiah Wright doesn't act like a Christian, which is acting Christ like, loving, sympathetic forgiving, but yeah, saying he is a Muslim is like saying Peanut Butter is mayonnaise.


Aside from that, I cannot control who you vote for, so whoever you want is your decision.
And McCain does not seem like a Bush 2.0 to me, anyway, he seems Republican, which after 8 years of it, must make him seem as boring as an old guy can be, but he seems better than Bush, and I give him my respect, he seems like a better person than Bush.

By the way, Obama cut himself off from Jeremiah Wrights church, he is not a member anymore.
Does anyone know where he goes now, seriously, do not tell me the mosque, cause I won't buy it, just cause his dad gave him Hussein as a middle name doesn't mean anything, although I do have my suspicions, without proof, what can I do?

 

[~L~]

I apoligize for that post. I forgot to log off and someone else used my name while I was away. That is a different stupidity in a class all by itself. It will not happen again.

I,personally, do not care for politics and am neutral on the subject.

Though none of you know me,you would think if someone posted that they wouldn't be adding anything more to the Debate Hall for awhile and then posted the next day would be somewhat suspicious?

 

[Crimson King]

Obama is Christian.

McCain is just a warhawk at this point who IS the embodiment of the Republican Party - spend as much as you can as long as you can for 4 - 8 years.

 

[Johnthegalactic]

Okay, i will believe that Obama is a Christian.

And yes, I think McCain should be trying to embody the party he represents, and I guess Republicans do spend alot of money, and it seems on tools of war, but what man wouldn't want an M1A2 Abrams MBT, that thing is beautiful IMO, and with the ability to move at 42mph on road, it is no slowpoke. Awell, maybe I am a little belligerent.

Anyway, Obama or McCain, as long as we leave Afghanistan and Iraq as functioning countries that can support themselves, then I should be happy.

 

[Deleted member]

I apoligize for that post. I forgot to log off and someone else used my name while I was away. That is a different stupidity in a class all by itself. It will not happen again.

I,personally, do not care for politics and am neutral on the subject.

Though none of you know me,you would think if someone posted that they wouldn't be adding anything more to the Debate Hall for awhile and then posted the next day would be somewhat suspicious?

Y'know - no johns. Your latest post in the God thread already has tarnished your reputation as a competent debater. Admitting you were wrong is probably the best.

I personally don't believe that someone else posted under your name, but if you want to become a skilled debater, owning up to your mis-posts is a good step. When I **** up, I admit it.

 

[RDK]

Where is the post in question?

 

[Deleted member]

Last page - CK quoted it before it was gone. I never saw the full thing, I just saw L's edit and reason for editing.

L, I have a thread floating around here in the debate hall that talks about Death Note and if Light was actually doing good. If you want, you can revive that and maybe get a discussion going.

 

[swim2007]

L please take your racist garbage off this thread..... I really doubt that someone would out of no where come on your account and make a post like that. Then as soon as you got it shoved back at you, you quickly apologized. That pretty much shows that you made the post. You may not like Obama as a canidate, but spinning this thread into an issue about race, is completely unacceptable. Especially considering, as Crimson King pointed out, your facts are incorrect.

 

[lonejedi]

I'm not an Obama fan either, but he's no better than Bush 2.0 (McCain) who wants to keep us in Iraq for, and I quote, "another 100 years".

Why do people in this thread keep bringing that up? WHY? Did you not see the video? He compared us staying there to us staying in South Korea after the War. We didn't have a full fledge army in South Korea at the time. Seriously, I guess we should get all our troops out of Japan, and any other base that we still use today. (Notsure if Japan is still one, but I do know that there are others) Seriously, Obama should pull out any military presence in any country now, because we could leave them there for the next 100 years.

I came across this video not too long ago. Some of the things here I could care less about such as not wearing a flag pin, or not putting your arm on your heart, since it's been proven that was just one time, and he usually does but some of these things seem pretty crazy. Im not going to say I agree with 100% of it, but I'd like to hear what you guys thought.

http://www.eyeblast.tv/Public/Video.aspx?rsrcID=2036

And the Hussein thing is really dumb, but other than that this thing is alright.

 

[~L~]

L please take your racist garbage off this thread..... I really doubt that someone would out of no where come on your account and make a post like that. Then as soon as you got it shoved back at you, you quickly apologized. That pretty much shows that you made the post. You may not like Obama as a canidate, but spinning this thread into an issue about race, is completely unacceptable. Especially considering, as Crimson King pointed out, your facts are incorrect.

You,have no brothers or sisters who do things to piss you off? I'm happy for you.

There is no way to prove that I did not post that. But,there is no way to prove that I did either. So I will just let it slide. And you,the debate hall,will take it as you please.


I personally couldn't care less what color he is. Once again I have no evidence,but I even have friends who are not caucasion.

But,something that I find interesting is the fact that it wasn't until the media discovered Obama's reverend's views during his Presidential campaign that Obama decided to reject him. Obama must have known that his "christian" reverend hated Americans.

Another thing,

Why did it take so long for the media to discover this? Obama did not just suddenly,out of nowhere,become a presidential candidate. He has also been a State and National senator.


Though I could very well be wrong,I do not recall the media mentioning anything about Obama's reverend until his Presidential run.

So,there is my view on Barrack Obama.

I'd rather have a solid critique than simple bashing,if you please. Show me where this is flawed,so that I can improve.

 

[Johnthegalactic]

Despite the Arabic or Muslim middle name, isn't his first name Jewish, according to BehindtheName.com, Barak(slightly different spelling, but thats normal), is a Jewish name that means lightning and was the name of a military leader in Israel, or something.
Anyway, who cares what his name is, that doesn't make him anything, I just want to uncover his cloudy past, and I am sick of hearing, zomg, hezuh terrorist cuz his middle name is Hussein, when Adolf Hitlers nephew shared the same last name as his uncle, he was in the US military and benefited the US.
I may not be a big fan of Obama, but, sheesh, he didn't name himself, so don't call him out for it, that is disresectful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Patrick_Hitler

 

[lonejedi]

Despite the Arabic or Muslim middle name, isn't his first name Jewish, according to BehindtheName.com, Barak(slightly different spelling, but thats normal), is a Jewish name that means lightning and was the name of a military leader in Israel, or something.
Anyway, who cares what his name is, that doesn't make him anything, I just want to uncover his cloudy past, and I am sick of hearing, zomg, hezuh terrorist cuz his middle name is Hussein, when Adolf Hitlers nephew shared the same last name as his uncle, he was in the US military and benefited the US.
I may not be a big fan of Obama, but, sheesh, he didn't name himself, so don't call him out for it, that is disresectful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Patrick_Hitler

I feel the same way, he can't control his middle name. I think it's really dumb that people are jumping onthis because of his middle name. But there are just so many other things that I can't stand about the guy.

 

[Amide]

To get back to some issues, who do you think would do a better job of fixing America's economy? Personally, I think both of them would do a pretty bad job, but let's do an overview.

John McCain supports the gas tax holiday, which despite making gas almost 10% cheaper, could lose funds for roads which pay for many jobs. So wait, how is that good for the economy? Oh yeah, and he thinks NAFTA is amazing too. Last time I checked, thousands of jobs being lost is not good. The billion dollars a day used at war in Iraq could be seen by some people as important, but in reality, most Americans think the money could be spent better. To make our national debt even worse he is making the tax cuts for the rich permanent. I mean, everyone loves low taxes, really. But seriously, this seems exactly like the plans that have been going on for the last seven years, we can't afford it with our 10 trillion dollar debt. To look at specific proposals, go here: http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/4dbd2cc7-890e-47f1-882f-b8fc4cfecc78.htm


Barack Obama wants tax relief for the middle class while substantially increasing taxes for the rich. While I would be in that middle class, how is that really fair? Barack thinks we should send people money to fix the economy. First off, money doesn't grow on trees. Second off, have you ever heard of inflation? While everyone wants healthcare, he is introducing an extremely expensive system. I don't hate UHC, but at this point in time, people need to realize that the USA can't really afford anything right now. Once again: http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/#tax-relief


As of now, I really don't know who would do a better job. I'm guessing Obama, but please, make your cases on this. I haven't truly decided, and this thread is in need of discussion.

 

[Crimson King]

The problem with strictly taxing the rich is you are punishing people for doing a good job and earning a high wage. There are easy ways to get out of being in that high bracket too such as investing your money overseas and putting it in foreign accounts.

The problem with McCain, and all republicans really, is they want to cut taxes but not cut spending. That is illogical. If you have a job and you over spend your budget, it will not make sense to QUIT that job. The only way to balance the economy is to cut programs until we are can start to hold ourselves, THEN reduce taxes.

 

[Amide]

That brings up a good point.

Republicans: Cut taxes, keep spending. We end up in debt.

Democrats: Keep taxes same, spend more. We end up in debt.

These programs, I mean, it seems like it would be awful to live without them. But once we can't borrow any more money, things will become much worse.

 

[Johnthegalactic]

The problem with strictly taxing the rich is you are punishing people for doing a good job and earning a high wage. There are easy ways to get out of being in that high bracket too such as investing your money overseas and putting it in foreign accounts.

The problem with McCain, and all republicans really, is they want to cut taxes but not cut spending. That is illogical. If you have a job and you over spend your budget, it will not make sense to QUIT that job. The only way to balance the economy is to cut programs until we are can start to hold ourselves, THEN reduce taxes.

That makes sense, really, too bad politicians cannot change their minds if they are doing something wrong.

 

[Crimson King]

Changing your mind means admitting fault. Few politicians will admit fault. Funny thing, we want honest politicians, but when we get them, we don't vote for them anyway.

 

[manhunter098]

The problem with strictly taxing the rich is you are punishing people for doing a good job and earning a high wage. There are easy ways to get out of being in that high bracket too such as investing your money overseas and putting it in foreign accounts.

The problem with McCain, and all republicans really, is they want to cut taxes but not cut spending. That is illogical. If you have a job and you over spend your budget, it will not make sense to QUIT that job. The only way to balance the economy is to cut programs until we are can start to hold ourselves, THEN reduce taxes.

Well you cant really say that for sure. Also the economy and government deficit spending are two different things. We can have a prosperous economy and a huge government deficit at the same time. Essentially though, what we want to happen is to get people to both make more money and spend more money. Thats the BEST way to get out or a recession. There are three main ways for the government to affect the economy, but for the most part, but the national budget plan only deals with two of them, taxes and programs. Interest is controlled by I think the treasury, and it can change any time, the national budget, isnt really the model of flexibility.

That said the issue is figuring out how people will react to changes in how much money they are earning, and predicting what they will do with it. The issue with cutting programs and not touching taxes, is that it helps the government deficit, but it actually HURTS the economy, since the government isnt putting as much money back into the economy as it was before. Lowering taxes also has a similar effect, it increases how much money people have to spend. The issue is trying to get the economy in good shape without adding even more debt to the government.

Furthermore, the government cant magically fix the economy, and its role in economics is not to prevent economic downs, it is to soften and shorten them and to try to extend the amount of time the economy is doing well . We WILL not remain in a recession forever, its impossible, eventually we will reach a low point and things will start to rise again.

 

[Amide]

@manhunter098

Can we assume that when people make more money, that people will spend a lot more? It wouldn't make a huge difference, and in itself, the government can't give people jobs. You may be right, but if you are, the government doesn't have much of a role in the nation's economy. Do you think that's really true?

 

[lonejedi]

I know this is a bit off topic from the economics disussion, but has anyone heard that Obama is already pulling the race card and McCain hasn't really even said anything?

http://rsmccain.blogspot.com/2008/06/obama-plays-race-card.html

I think the inexperience could potentially kill obama's campaign. He's saying some really dumb stuff right now, and if he keeps it up, he could make a major slip up. I just think it's really a lame move to pull out the race card, when race hasn't even been an issue with McCain's campaign.

 

[Amide]

I had no idea! Thanks for the update lonejedi, but is there video proof of this? I think he was trying to be funny, but he failed miserably. I believe it, but it's unbelievable.
Oh yeah, McCain adviser said that terror attack would help him. There are so much things messed up going on right now, it's a bit sad that our candidates have so many slip ups.

 

[Eor]

Bump bump bump

 

[cman]

Oh good job bumping this.

Obama/Biden vs McCain/Palin

Let's discuss the pros and cons of each choice.

To start off, I would say that I believe Palin is in no way capable of assuming Presidential responsibilities in the case that McCain is unable to perform, especially in foreign policy. She admitted to being uninterested (essentially) in the Iraq war enough to not follow it. This intellectual boredom does not inspire my confidence in her ability to assume the office.

 

[Amide]

I just think it's bloody ironic for McCain to attack Obama's inexperience when his own VP choice has even less experience. McCain basically said "Change? I have a woman on the ticket," yes, this is change, but change that won't affect Americans at all.

 

[Knyaguy]

I heard that McCain actually wanted Lieberman as his running mate but his advisors said his liberal views on some issues will detour the hardcore conservative voters.

 

[IWontGetOverTheDam]

I think this move will either make or break McCain's campaign.

1. I think McCain only chose Palin to (sorry to use a Smash term-I can't think of a better word) counterpick Obama's "minority" status, as if to say, "Hey, he's black, she's a woman! Whoo!"
2. McCain is officially a hypocrite. How can he criticize Obama's lack of experience, and then turn around and pick Palin? What if McCain dies in office and Palin has to be in charge? At least Obama has some experience with foreign policy, along with Biden to back him up.