The Official Election 2008 Thread!

[Crimson King]

When someone suspends their campaign, it's typically for good.

Clinton is out and we are left with a massive, evil psychopath and a rather naive, easily-swayed socialist. Personally, I cannot vote for either because I agree with neither stances, so I am out.

Oh well, it was a fun election, and I did register because of it.

 

[GhostAnime]

i'm sure you can still vote for the lesser evil. isn't that what people did 4 years ago?

 

[Crimson King]

Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil. In this case, I couldn't even tell, probably Obama, but I think his universal health care is a bad idea, and after missing the whole preacher being a psychopathic racist, it's hard for me to really see how he will be diplomatically competent.

 

[Deleted member]

Man, people STILL think universal health care is a bad idea? You have no idea how much we appreciate it in Canada. It's probably one of the only reasons I can think of why I wouldn't want to live in the US.

 

[Crimson King]

The US Dollar is also worth less than the Canadian dollar, we have a higher level of drug dependency, obesity, and overall violent accidents. Add to the fact that people already severely abuse the systems in place, a free health care will be abused daily until it goes broke.

You cannot compare Canada's ~33 million to the US's ~300 million.

 

[Deleted member]

From XE.com:

Live rates at 2008.06.11 02:44:13 UTC
1.00 CAD

=

0.976773 USD

Not to mention the fact that our dollar was not close to parity at the time we introduced free health care.

Your reasoning is the same ridiculous mentality used for gun control. You know, come to think of it, it's also the same mentality used to justify being against gay marriages.

Slippery slopes. They kinda are running your shiat, America.

Free health care is a blessing. Oh man I feel sorry for you guys.

 

[Crimson King]

I'm for gun ownership, and I am for gay marriage. Free Health Care is vastly different because we are in economic slumps. Where does the money come from when our own Federal Reserve Board is admittedly bankrupt? We spend trillions of dollars in a war, annually, and we have large debts to many countries. So, where are we supposed to get money to give away health care to people who will likely exploit it?

 

[GhostAnime]

universal health care isn't as great as it seems. sorry delorted. our quality would drop drastically (you know **** well US has one of the best quality around) and don't get me started with long lines.

 

[Deleted member]

First of all - do you understand how free health care works?

Do you know how much tax is in Ontario? It's 15%. I'm quite sure yours is around 5%. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

Now, you realize that health care can be linked back to almost every single problem. If the country isn't healthy, it will surely reflect upon the nation's economy. A lot of people can't afford basic health care - yet I can walk down the street to my walk-in clinic and get treated for free, provided I'm a citizen.

Health care is a right. You shouldn't have to pay for it. It's paid for by the taxes.

Universal health care isn't flawless, but it's **** better than the ridiculous system you guys have.

 

[SkylerOcon]

Canada has many fewer people than America. America is an economic slump. We have more dependency on drugs, we have more obesity, and more violent crimes and accidents.

Free Health Care would turn an already in debt country into an incredibly in debt country.

 

[Deleted member]

Why is scale a factor? You realize that Obama hopes to reverse the problems you guys are facing, right? One of the ways you do that is start by socializing health care.

 

[Crimson King]

First of all - do you understand how free health care works?

Do you know how much tax is in Ontario? It's 15%. I'm quite sure yours is around 5%. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

Now, you realize that health care can be linked back to almost every single problem. If the country isn't healthy, it will surely reflect upon the nation's economy. A lot of people can't afford basic health care - yet I can walk down the street to my walk-in clinic and get treated for free, provided I'm a citizen.

Health care is a right. You shouldn't have to pay for it. It's paid for by the taxes.

Universal health care isn't flawless, but it's **** better than the ridiculous system you guys have.

You contradict yourself. You say you pay high taxes, but you claim not to pay for Health Care. THAT'S where your health care is coming from, hence why the practice is inherently socialist. You are paying to fill the pot for others to dip into if they need health care. (Which is what I essentially wanted you to get to) Nothing is free. The money has to come somewhere. I get sick maybe once a year. My immune system is extremely strong, and I avoid the doctor unless absolutely necessary. When I need a doctor, I pay a co-pay to of $30. Why should I pay extra for some hypochondriac to get placebos or some kid to get methadone? If I make the money, I should spend it as I see fit, not for someone else to get a cheaper ride if they don't pay taxes some how.

 

[GhostAnime]

health care costs are a problem but universalizing it isn't the solution to the problem.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't claim to pay high taxes. I don't feel 15% is unreasonable whatsoever. What's an extra 10% when it's my life we're talking about?

I hope you don't think you led me into a trap. Because you didn't. All you did was show how incredibly selfish that kind of thinking is.

 

[GhostAnime]

you dont think 15% is too high?

5% on the average american income which is 35k is 1,750.

15% of 35k is 5,250. that's a difference of thousands of dollars gone a year.

that's even considering that 15% is generous for what this country would have to pay for in terms of free health care. it'll most likely be higher than that.

 

[Kur]

If we really want cheap, quality health care, we need to make it completely free market.

No more government subsidies, no more employers paying.

Let each person get their own health insurance just like they have to get their own car insurance, or life insurance.

If the health insurance companies had to cater to people without kickbacks from employers and government, costs would drop like a rock making it affordable to more people. Not to mention that because employers would no longer have to pay health care benefits, they can afford to pay their employees more money.


Socializing health care is a disaster.

If some jerk won't get off his *** and work, then why do I have to pay for him to go to the doctor? and why should I suddenly have to wait in longer lines, be turned away, have lower quality service?

Why should my health care go from a B+ down to a D- or even an F to take care of some jerks who refuse to take care of themselves?

And what is going to happen when the government can't afford to pay for all these people to go to the doctor? Easy, the government will stop paying the doctors, or cut their pay. So who is going to want to be a doctor? All that work and training, the years of school, and the government wants to step in and cut your pay? Yeah right.


The whole point is that MOST Americans have good health care. What is the point of giving everybody crappy health care?

This is the land of opportunity, not the land of the free ride. If you can't afford health care, it is your own fault. The opportunity is there, you just have to work for it.

 

[Deleted member]

Tax on goods is 15%, I'm not sure on income tax. But if I'm not mistaken, income tax does not pay for health care.

You guys can throw numbers at me all you want, but that doesn't refute the fact that everyone should have a right to health care. Crimson King acts as if he's never going to have a single serious health problem. And I sincerely hope he doesn't. But what if he does? What if he is suddenly hit by a car and he's forced to pay thousands and thousands of dollars simply to fight for his life?

Canadian health care is not limited to family doctors and biannual check ups. It's full coverage.

 

[lonejedi]

CK, just out of curiosity, why you think McCain is a warmonger who just wants to take everyone out? I've come to realize that you have some pretty radical views on things, not that they are wrong,just that they are out there. What makes you think this towards McCain? What has he done in his past to earn him this title?

 

[Deleted member]

You know, I'm just going to end this here. This debate is seriously bumming me out. No one's responded yet, but I don't care. I just re-read this page and the amount of people who disagree with universal health care is beyond my level of comprehension and tolerance.

You cannot go about life living through these slippery slopes.

Against gay marriage because you think people are going to marry horses? Because people are going to marry their best friend to get tax benefits?

Pro-guns because you think people are going to rob you?

Against socialized health care because you think people are going to get a free ride?

I cannot understand this selfish American mindset. The funny thing is I agree with some of your ideals when it comes to money. I don't want people getting a free ride. However, when it comes to life and keeping people healthy, money is irrelevant. And I'm a pretty conservative guy.

The whole point is that MOST Americans have good health care.

This is completely unacceptable. I'm leaving this topic right now because I cannot deal with the levels of selfishness and ignorance that are hurting my head.

To close:

Health care in Canada is not a D- or an F+ - the quality of the service is still very good and encompasses all required services. I don't see many people getting free rides. Our doctors still drive very nice cars. You're paying for others because they are paying for you. You can complain about high taxes, but when you become seriously injured and you are treated without hesitation, the complaint becomes so freaking irrelevant.

Simply put - money isn't everything. Don't be so god**** selfish.

I'm done. Rant off, nitpick me away. I won't respond.

 

[Crimson King]

Uh, the money is mine. I earned it, and I should decide where it goes to, not so power hungry government. Simple as that. If I get in an accident, I have Health Insurance.

Lonejedi, McCain has made NUMEROUS statements that shows he just wants to continue the war in Iraq and also focus on a war in Iran. He has flip-flopped on more issues than John Kerry, but no one calls him on it because if they do, he'll just go into his rants of POW camps. Prisoners of War are going to be REALLY xenophobic and distrustful of any other nation who they deem their enemy, and extremely "patriotic." With McCain, he acts like he has something to prove, and with the current war effort sucking up plenty troops, I feel a draft will be needed to maintain a presence in Iraq and focus on any other interests - something I do not want to be apart of.

 

[GhostAnime]

Tax on goods is 15%, I'm not sure on income tax. But if I'm not mistaken, income tax does not pay for health care.

tax on goods is still thousands of dollars gone ever year.

Against gay marriage because you think people are going to marry horses? Because people are going to marry their best friend to get tax benefits?

most are against marriage for other reasons.. did i mention that i'm for it, btw?

Pro-guns because you think people are going to rob you?

or rather we need a good way of protecting ourselves because policemen aren't perfect? you think criminals will stop getting guns because you say so? get real.

Against socialized health care because you think people are going to get a free ride?

quality drops and lines become long.

Health care in Canada is not a D- or an F+ - the quality of the service is still very good and encompasses all required services.

actually our quality is better than yours. way better.

 

[SaxDude93]

So, CK and other anti-"socialized" health care people" are you against universal health-care for everyone, or only adults. How do you feel about kids and senors. Would you support universal health-care for them only? I get where you are coming from about the lazy people and free rides, but they only usually apply to working adults. What about kids and senors who don't have good immune systems or health insurance?

What if you're parents get old and catch something, but can't go to the doctor because of a lack of insurance, and they then die? Would you feel bad because you didn't support a universal plan for them? And what about the kids? They have weak immune systems and can easily die from a simple infection without seeing a doctor. Do kids honestly deserve to die because their families can't afford treatment? That is where universal health care is a good thing.

 

[swim2007]

Affordability is what I would look for in health care. Universal would create an economic mess and anger many people. If we can continue to lower the cost of health insurance as McCain has stated on the record as wanting to do, than there will be no issues with seniors and children. I am sure the parents can shell out some money to save their kids life. I am sure that seniors can be guided along the road to setting up a health insurance plan. Saxdude you paint a very negative picture. The people who you specify (kids and seniors) who are ill and have no family and no money is a ridiculously virtually nonexistent group in the nation. The amount of kids and seniors in this country with no family or money probably constitutes .00000001% of the national population. Why should everyone have to pay just to really save 5-10 people in the entire nation. The adults who don't have insurance are just lazy. If you are disabled, you get disability payments to pay for things. Get off your ***, get a job, work, and make some money.

 

[Crimson King]

So, CK and other anti-"socialized" health care people" are you against universal health-care for everyone, or only adults. How do you feel about kids and senors. Would you support universal health-care for them only? I get where you are coming from about the lazy people and free rides, but they only usually apply to working adults. What about kids and senors who don't have good immune systems or health insurance?

What if you're parents get old and catch something, but can't go to the doctor because of a lack of insurance, and they then die? Would you feel bad because you didn't support a universal plan for them? And what about the kids? They have weak immune systems and can easily die from a simple infection without seeing a doctor. Do kids honestly deserve to die because their families can't afford treatment? That is where universal health care is a good thing.

As harsh as it sounds, it's not my problem. My parents worked HARD for the last 30+ years in order to maintain an higher standard of living and never went to college, so they had to work twice as hard. Those kids have parents. Their parents are in charge of solving health care issues, not me. I did not choose to have them. As for the elderly: they were young once and should have saved. Why should I become their safety net? You have the same situation for exploitation. Then, with Universal Health care you have the reliance that people have on Social Security. Social Security is as good as dead, but people can't be tapered off because a lot of them banked so hard on it.

 

[GhostAnime]

i'm not against the idea of lowering their costs but it can't be completely free; especially with how the economy's doing.

 

[Firus]

You know, I'm just going to end this here. This debate is seriously bumming me out. No one's responded yet, but I don't care. I just re-read this page and the amount of people who disagree with universal health care is beyond my level of comprehension and tolerance.

Considering you live with universal Heatlh Care, how can you possibly call us idiots for not wanting your type of Heatlh Care? You don't live here, you don't know how it works. If you lived in the US, perhaps you'd be a little more credible in saying that it's better.

You cannot go about life living through these slippery slopes.

Against gay marriage because you think people are going to marry horses? Because people are going to marry their best friend to get tax benefits?

I've never even heard that reason used as a position against gay marriage.

Pro-guns because you think people are going to rob you?

No, because gun control is nothing but harmful to honest people. Guns aren't hard to get, or heck, to MAKE even. If there's gun control and someone wants to get a gun, they're going to get one. Honest people who do not break the law will be the ones without guns and will not have a way of defending themselves because guns are illegal and they don't break the law. Gun control solves nothing, it causes more problems.

Against socialized health care because you think people are going to get a free ride?

Yes, because there are people who are going to get a free ride. That's not a slippery slope, that's a fact. Right now there are people getting free rides. Perhaps Canada doesn't have as much of an issue with illegal immigration (which it probably doesn't), but have you noticed the number of illegal immigrants already getting in-state tuition for college when they don't live there, illegal immigrants who don't pay taxes, but will still get Social Security in the US?
The same thing will happen with Health Care. We'll pay more taxes, and in addition to the tax dollars already going to illegal immigrants who pay no taxes, we'll be giving them Health Care, too. Health Care is not free as you mentioned in your previous post; as Crimson King pointed out, the extra taxes you pay are paying for Health Care. Just because you're not paying it when you go in doesn't mean it's free. I am not paying for some illegal immigrant to get free Health Care, when I worked hard to earn my money.

Simply put - money isn't everything. Don't be so god**** selfish.

I'm done. Rant off, nitpick me away. I won't respond.

I don't care, honestly, if you're not going to respond. But do us a favor and leave the Debate Hall unless you're willing to DEBATE and not flip out because people have opinions different from you. Get a blog or something and write your opinions somewhere else if you don't want people to offer their opinions to counter yours. This is the Debate Hall, for debating. It's great that you have an opinon, and although I disagree, I'm not going to call you selfish and storm off.

 

[Eor]

actually our quality is better than yours. way better.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

 

[GhostAnime]

they measure quality a bit different than what i'm referring to. when i say 'quality' i mean better medicine and responsiveness.

 

[Kur]

Tax on goods is 15%, I'm not sure on income tax. But if I'm not mistaken, income tax does not pay for health care.

You guys can throw numbers at me all you want, but that doesn't refute the fact that everyone should have a right to health care. Crimson King acts as if he's never going to have a single serious health problem. And I sincerely hope he doesn't. But what if he does? What if he is suddenly hit by a car and he's forced to pay thousands and thousands of dollars simply to fight for his life?

Canadian health care is not limited to family doctors and biannual check ups. It's full coverage.

Income tax will pay for health care if it ever becomes government funded in the US. And that tax increase will be freakin huge. Obama has an EXTRA $1trillion dollar budget proposed for next year should he become elected. That is a budget increase of 33%. For me that would take my income tax from 33% to about 44% of my paycheck.


And I don't understand where you are getting that anybody in the US doesn't have the right to health care. Everybody in the US can get health care any time they want. It's not like there is some agency telling us who can or can not get health care.

If you can't afford it, tough. Go get a job that lets you afford it. If one person can do it, there is no reason the next person can't. I myself am not happy with the financial position I find myself in so I am going to do something about it. I am probably going to go back to school, or maybe try to find a higher paying job. The point is that in this country I have every opportunity to be as successful as I want to be. I just have to get off my butt and do it. What right does the government have to tell me I have to pay extra taxes because somebody else won't take that same opportunity? It is absolutely ridiculous.

And if somebody without health care is hit by a car, the doctor does not simply not save the mans life. The doctors have to save the mans life whether they think he can pay or not.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

I recently read a report done on that very ranking. The basis of that ranking was done based on many factors that have nothing to do with health care such as life expectancy and infant mortality. The US has more violent crime, natural disasters, illegal immigrants, more varied demographics, suicides, and people who generally do not care about their health. All of these factors contribute to an overall shorter life expectancy in the US but have nothing to do with the health care system. Infant mortality is usually the result of something the mother was involved in while pregnant, such as drugs, drinking, accidents, etc. Again most of this is of higher prevalence in the US than in Canada.

This all leads that ranking system to be a general guideline, but can not definitively say that one country has better health care than another.

 

[Crimson King]

Score! CNN.com just got proven wrong when Ron Paul's announcement wasn't that he was dropping, but that he was going to keep going. Awesome.

 

[RDK]

Pro-guns because you think people are going to rob you?

^ Crap like this really pisses me off. Honest citizens should have the right to carry guns to protect themselves. Taking away our right to bear arms isn't going to stop the criminals from obtaining their weapons, which the majority of them don't get conventionally anyway (black market, etc.).

Score! CNN.com just got proven wrong when Ron Paul's announcement wasn't that he was dropping, but that he was going to keep going. Awesome.

True, but what are the chances of Paul actually winning? Slim to none. Which is sad, BTW, because right now Obama is looking to be the golden boy at the moment.

Anyone know how Bob Barr is doing?

 

[Crimson King]

Who cares of Ron Paul wins? He has done major things:

1. He's proven you don't have to by "Democrat/Republican" to get any recognition.
2. He has changed A LOT of anti-war democrats and Republicans to "Ron Paul Republicans." That alone will do more than 4 - 8 years as president ever could.

Also, most of his supports, myself included, are now going to write in Ron Paul when we vote. It'll get thrown out, but it will make some waves for sure.

 

[RDK]

Very true. It's just sad that our government has degenerated into the teeming cesspool of corruption that it is today. I imagine the only way we're going to be able to pick ourselves up by our bootstraps is either to make some really big changes, or a full-on revolution.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd just like to apologize for the outburst I had yesterday. I don't really know what came over me, but if you guys don't mind, I'd like to start over.

This time, much less belligerently.

 

[Crimson King]

Water under bridge. I figured because it was out of character of you.

And he officially dropped out.

I'll be voting for him in November as a write in candidate though. It won't count, but I'll make my statement.

 

[manhunter098]

Well I have to say with all the debate on socialist policies going on, that socialism can be the answer to a lot of problems. But it does depend greatly on the country in question. There are several nations in Europe that make great use of a policy that is very much socialist. I dont remember the exact country, but one of them takes about 50% of the income of their citizens as a tax, but because they have a very low unemployment rate and a larger than average percentage of their people in the labor pool, they can take up a lot of money and roll out some great and effective programs, and the people still make more than enough to get by comfortably, with the added benefits of the socialist programs like free health care and college.

However as nice as socialist programs are at heart, they are very reliant on the country itself in order to work. In a nation like the US, with a rather large number of people who are happy living off government welfare. Its not going to help us at all. If somehow we could get those people to get jobs, then maybe free health care in the US could be a good thing, since doctors wouldnt have to get such a huge cut in their paychecks since there would be more money going into the program, but America is full of lazy ****s who spend their welfare money on cell phones and other luxury items, rather than focusing on getting back into the workforce so they can actually earn a living. Because of that socialist programs are not compatible with the US.

 

[Deleted member]

Okay, - I'm gonna start over.

I'll begin by stating that while the United States is very populated, it is still the only wealthy, industrialized nation that has not yet adopted socialized health care.

Further, most of the arguments presented pertaining to fiscal matters could just as easily be used in parallel to argue for the privatization of education.

Why is it that schools are publicly funded, yet hospitals aren't?

 

[GhostAnime]

we may be the only country that doesnt has it, but we're the main ones researching new things in medicine.

 

[Deleted member]

That's a pretty big statement you're making. Are we talking in lolcats now? Do you has evidence?

I kid. Anyway, even IF this was true (which I'm not denying) what does that have to do with anything?

 

[Kur]

Okay, - I'm gonna start over.

I'll begin by stating that while the United States is very populated, it is still the only wealthy, industrialized nation that has not yet adopted socialized health care.

Further, most of the arguments presented pertaining to fiscal matters could just as easily be used in parallel to argue for the privatization of education.

Why is it that schools are publicly funded, yet hospitals aren't?

Schools are publicly funded because a while ago some liberals got control of the government for a while and introduced public education. they also introduced social security. Both programs are completely failing at the tasks they were designed to do. As is the way with every liberal socialist program that is ever put into action, they fail.

Socialism sounds great on paper. Everybody gets free this and that, nobody is homeless, blah blah blah. the problem is that to afford all of that you are taxed out the wazoo, and your government has to control every aspect of your life to make sure that you do not buy more than your allotment and that you continue to work hard at being a doctor or lawyer, so that 75% of your paycheck can be taxed to make up for the smaller paycheck of the crack head who has a paper route. But at least you both have the same size house and drive the same car right?

With socialism, you give up your rights in exchange for a government babysitter. You basically become completely dependent on the government like your dog is dependent on you.

this country was founded on principles of freedom and opportunity. Socialism is the complete opposite of that. And just remember, every country that adopts pure socialism always collapses. It just doesn't work.

For example. Lets say you are taking a class in college. On the first day your professor walks in and says "Congratulations! You all are going to pass this class with a C! But there is a catch. I need all of you A students to keep doing A quality work so I can take the extra points to give to the F students. I also need the B students to keep doing B work so I can give the points to the D students."

What do you think is going to happen? First of all, there are probably more C and D students than anything else, so right off the bat there is not enough A and B students to make up the points for the lower grade students. Second, why would the A and B students keep doing the hard work to get As and Bs when they are only going to get Cs anyway? And why are the C and D students going to try to get anything at all when they can get a C for doing practically nothing? Most likely the students who are C and below students will stay in the class because of the promise of a C grade. The A and B students will either not do A and B work or they will leave and take a class where they can earn As and Bs. When all is said and done, everybody ends up with an F because there just was not enough points to go around after all. The only way to make this work is to completely control the students with force if needed.

There is no freedom in socialism. There is no ambition in socialism. There is no desire. You can't get rich, you can't have more than what you are alloted. And if your neighbor decides he would rather be a burger flipper than an engineer, then a little more is taken from you to give to him to make up for his lower pay. Because why be something that requires lots of school and hard work? No matter what you get paid, the government will tax you so you take home the same amount as the 16 year old who just got his first job.