Justblaze647
Smash Lord
Wolf mains get out
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The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!
- Thread starter Shaya
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Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Might want to read that sentence again.
dainbramage
Smash Journeyman
You can't use matches played against dead people as justification for a MU not being bad.
YagamiLight
Smash Champion
This is true; in Fox dittos there's always a Fox that loses.
hichez50
Smash Lord
I mean experienced. lol.
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
I'm curious about the placement of one particular character in the next tier list...
Where do you guys think Sonic is going?
Obviously he's not as bad a character as we originally surmised...
Where do you guys think Sonic is going?
Obviously he's not as bad a character as we originally surmised...
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Sonic > PT
Otherwise, he's fine where he is.
Otherwise, he's fine where he is.
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
Actually, I agree lol
Him staying where he is suggests that he is totally unviable for tourney play, yet he gets more top ate positions than any character in his tier, and some of the characters a tier above him.
I would say, if everything in the tier list were to stay the same (for the sake of simplicity), I put him either above or behind Peach... upper mid d tier
FaWa
Smash Apprentice
Puff goes like a couple spots higher, and Sonic maybe too. Other then that theres not that many issues with the list.
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
Could you, or anyone for that matter, explain why Jiggz deserves to go up at all?
I just don't see it
I just don't see it
The Truth!
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2009
- Messages
- 991
lol, its definitely worse than Marth MK, by that metric it is unwinnable. Realistically its probably 70-30 or worse, unless fox has tools im unaware of that make it better than the falco mu.
Still an awesome character though.
Jiggs is a beast! she has a very soild zoning game and an amazing stalling game. if you play defensively and are force the approach you have a huge advantage because of jiggs grab range.
I main sheik and fox sheik isn't as bad as people make it out to be I think... the lock is vrey percent dependant and fox is a very mobil character than can jump in and out and keep presure up with lazers, it can force you to get him above lock percents and actually fight him. fox has a lot of great tool is the match up. utilt->usmash for like 10->60% percent... not fun.a strong punisher in usmash that kills incredibly low...
Similar things can be said about most of fox's bad match ups people are playing them way too agressive IMO. fox has a lot of safer on sheild options and the stall helps a ton to avoid grab and other bad situations and even bait and punish them. Fox is a way~ better and more versitile character than he gets credit for.
I main sheik and fox sheik isn't as bad as people make it out to be I think... the lock is vrey percent dependant and fox is a very mobil character than can jump in and out and keep presure up with lazers, it can force you to get him above lock percents and actually fight him. fox has a lot of great tool is the match up. utilt->usmash for like 10->60% percent... not fun.a strong punisher in usmash that kills incredibly low...
Similar things can be said about most of fox's bad match ups people are playing them way too agressive IMO. fox has a lot of safer on sheild options and the stall helps a ton to avoid grab and other bad situations and even bait and punish them. Fox is a way~ better and more versitile character than he gets credit for.
Yonder
Smashboard's 1st Sole Survivor
Above now? Peach is pree superior to Sonic...
Browny
Smash Hater
lol, Sonic staying below PT and Sheik would be the most illogical, imcomprehensibly stupid result of all time.
The top shiek mains cant place anywhere near as well, or as frequently as the top sonics, they never have and likely never will. At least PT remains arguable and some doubt may exist for as long as reflex is around lol.
No it wouldn't.
Meta Knight going to bottom tier would dwarf the hell out of that in terms of "incomprehensibly stupid"-ness.
Either way, now that I actually sit down and think about it, if we're going heavily off of tournament results, Sonic's current activity warrants a good-sized jump upward in the tier list. I'm talking about hovering somewhere between DK and Peach's positions.
He's been doing very well compared to even the likes of ROB, Pit, and Kirby too, methinks.
Meta Knight going to bottom tier would dwarf the hell out of that in terms of "incomprehensibly stupid"-ness.
Either way, now that I actually sit down and think about it, if we're going heavily off of tournament results, Sonic's current activity warrants a good-sized jump upward in the tier list. I'm talking about hovering somewhere between DK and Peach's positions.
He's been doing very well compared to even the likes of ROB, Pit, and Kirby too, methinks.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
yeah sonics tournament results def. trump ROBs. it comes down to whether the community is willing to change their beliefs based on tournament results. (they wont)
Browny
Smash Hater
-_-
lets stry to stick to realistic possible scenarios here.
Tourney results dont need to factor in heavily, BELIEVABLE theorycraft can have some affect. I cant emphasise that word enough.
You never specified.
Victory for me.
Rather than saying that that's a hint for Sonic to move above him though, I'd think it'd be more safe to assume that ROB should be knocked down a notch.
Tournament results should never be an end all, but they should definitely support the idea of a character rising or falling.
Sonic's metagame hasn't really changed much. He still utilizes the same types of approach and camping games. His results have simply just been improving.
Maybe all of the Sonic's who place are simply just getting down match ups.
Purple
Hi guys!
*shrug* I like how things are enormously ******** just because they aren't in your stretch of view.
I wouldn't say sheiks can't place anywhere near as well as Sonics, it's entirely possible.
Renki
Smash Journeyman
My thoughts exactly. I agree that Sonic deserves a rise, even possibly above Sheik for the time being, sure. But to say that Sheiks will never place as high as sonic is inherently flawed.
Browny
Smash Hater
If the rankings list never existed, Sonics would still be placing very highly (X and espy) and have a multitude of other players who repeatedly take top8 and a PR'd. Can you say the same for sheik?
You're looking at this the wrong way lol. If a ladder didnt exist for a sports competition, everyone would still be able to see which teams win more often are the better teams etc :/
Ok ill accept what I said was off Peppycharles, I'm sorry. Please dont take it seriously, I know how espy feels about pt/sheik/sonic so I was playing to his emotions there
I say it is wrong because when 4.0 came out, Sonic has stayed above rank 20 for the 8-month period in the rankings list for the entire time, then sheik and pt who were always around 23-28 or so get above him. it doesnt make any sense to me that if for the second continuous update, after placing far above sheik and pt for well over 12 months, he would stay below them. I shift the question from 'why should sonic rise' to 'why should others rise above him'.I just dont see any reason why they moved above him in 4.0, and why they would then stay above him in 5.0. Sure Sonic's results are biased because he has many more people playing him, more people playing = more likely to have pros main him. Outside of theoretical matchup ratios (which incidentally, are hard for the sheik/pt mains to prove are favourable to them because there are so few sheiks able to show us how she fares vs the higher tier characters), I dont see a reason for sheik to stay above sonic. The doubt with sonics sheer number of players skewing results is less than the doubt that exists vs how good pt and sheik are in theory imo.
Purple
Hi guys!
This is definitely true for the choir, not exactly the people new to the church (if that makes sense at all). The rankings list is for people who are new to the game, coming in to see where their character stands and why that's the case. Most people actually -won't- know who's better than the other off of immediately sight, there's far too much to learn about the game to know that first hand.
While I accept your opinion as valid it really depends on what was used as judgment. People still use matchups for judgment around as much as they use tournament results: what tourney results did they use? How did sonic fare in these? Did they also use who they played in brackets as viable reasons? There are a lot of questions that we haven't entirely looked at.
Also to digress it bit, as much as I hate saying this, why does it matter? Not saying that Sonic, Sheik, and PT are in any form or case even in value as a character, but aren't they around the same ballpark? If tournament results are used, and sonic players continue doing what they're doing and sheiks don't, sonic will rise naturally, and vice versa.
I think a strong factor to sheik's gameplay is the loop that she has, the DACUS that's lolpainful, and a little bit of bias sprinkled on the side; but what do i know.
Also to Digress yet again, what in the world is up with people and Renamon? She's not even that cute.
Browny
Smash Hater
I dont have a problem with pt/sheik/sonic being in the same tier, there is enough doubt with their placings/theory which would give them the same viability imo. It doesnt really matter at all lol, it bothers me though coz I used to main sonic for a long time, in 2008/2009 sonics and sheiks really didnt get along well with the whole chain > sonic calls and tier placing arguments never stopped between them lol. Having sheik remain above him in the same tier will forever annoy that part of me
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
I've said this 100 times, but the rankings list is almost the most important thing, because whatever we say about what makes a character good or bad is subject to opinion and human error and the rankings list is not. The rankings list clearly shows Sonic doing pretty well at tournaments. There's obviously a discrepancy between where we've put him and how capable he actually is.
We aren't correctly evaluating what makes characters good.
I do. There's no way Sonic is in the same tier as a bunch of characters who haven't placed at half his level in eight months.
the ranking list is evidence that can be used to assert a character's viability in terms of match ups and what not.
Is Sonic's match ups with the key characters under rated? Is his capabilities in his current environment rule set wise (standards, not exactly BBR) bolstering his effectiveness?
Or are his player's exceptional compared to the opponent's they face?
Is Sonic's match ups with the key characters under rated? Is his capabilities in his current environment rule set wise (standards, not exactly BBR) bolstering his effectiveness?
Or are his player's exceptional compared to the opponent's they face?
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
I think it's the former. If any other character had the sheer amount of options Sonic has, we'd say they were a good character. His options heavily factor into how good or bad his match-ups really are and it's something we aren't considering.
Sonic has the two most powerful attributes any character can have in this game: he never has to commit and has amazing recovery. The fact that none of these options are particularly deadly or dangerous holds him back a little, but it doesn't even really matter that much in my opinion. He's still getting damage hin where he can after all.
Sonic is the kind of character that will always fail in a world where everyone is a Smash Machine that can't be mindgamed or tricked, because that's what he is. But in the real world I suspect Sonic will always do quite well.
With the recent (3.1) release, and my over all commitment to seeing it as a standard...
Sonic does very well on group 2 stages. Pokemon Stadium 2 (lest the day I force it down people's throats as a starter somewhere other than Sydney, Australia) is a stupidly good stage for him. As is Pictochat.
Yoshi's Island, a top priority starter is an auto strike against him.
He has counter pick stages he has extreme advantages on with a percent lead in YI and Pictochat; and even without has some of the best priority "approaches" available.
FD, Castle Siege, Halberd and PS1 don't exactly weaken him, they assert his strengths. Delfino definitely has a slew of characters that do better than him.
Sonic does wlel on smashville too... jesus christ.
I'd say battlefield + Delfino are the only available starters that he can't "use" that well.
Sonic does very well on group 2 stages. Pokemon Stadium 2 (lest the day I force it down people's throats as a starter somewhere other than Sydney, Australia) is a stupidly good stage for him. As is Pictochat.
Yoshi's Island, a top priority starter is an auto strike against him.
He has counter pick stages he has extreme advantages on with a percent lead in YI and Pictochat; and even without has some of the best priority "approaches" available.
FD, Castle Siege, Halberd and PS1 don't exactly weaken him, they assert his strengths. Delfino definitely has a slew of characters that do better than him.
Sonic does wlel on smashville too... jesus christ.
I'd say battlefield + Delfino are the only available starters that he can't "use" that well.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
It might be noted that X took M2k to RC and beat him handily. I watched it on the stream and he seemed to have no problem navigating RC at all.
Browny
Smash Hater
Yeah I'd agree delfino is probably his weakest CP in general (that isnt something absurd like norfair).
Frigate is pretty good too. Not enough platforms to ruin spring/spindash tricks and of course he has arguably the best recovery for the stage 1 right side.
Frigate is pretty good too. Not enough platforms to ruin spring/spindash tricks and of course he has arguably the best recovery for the stage 1 right side.
Veggi
Smash Champion
I might just be rambling on about something that doesn't make any sense, but I think the reason Sonic mains can go very far in tournaments is because he ports player skill very directly imo. The Sonic playstyle I see people use is just messing with people and frequently getting out of trouble with his great amount amount of options. Statistically he isn't very good, but he isn't restrained by anything.
No you don't.I know how espy feels about pt/sheik/sonic so I was playing to his emotions there
I just like watching you type of walls of text for me.
All it takes is for me to say something you don't like, then BAM.
Sonic can handle Rainbow Cruise well against certain opponents. There's plenty of room to navigate, Sonic can use SDR abuse on the right side of the ship, has a jab lock set up so long as the opponent doesn't tech, and various other little gimmicks here and there that really make him a nuisance.
KOing isn't much of an issue either, considering how much of the stage's blast zones are very close to the platforms after the ship. He also has hilarious throw gimps on the falling blocks that work on anyone not named Meta Knight.
Again, he just handles the stage quite well.
I could argue for Battlefield being a level he "can't" use well, but in comparison to stages like Final Destination, Halberd, Smashville, Yoshi's Island: Brawl, and several counterpicks, I'll agree with you.
What?
Norfair BAD for Sonic?
You've gotta be insane.
Sure, it's not good for him when you have levels like Pictochat and Yoshi's Island to choose from, but Norfair alone helps buffer his issue with KOs, while simultaneously improving his pressure game during lava events.
It's also one of the levels that a camping Sonic is a force on besides Pictochat and YI: Brawl. Platforms protect him from approaches from above, and allow him to shark with several of his moves (uair, utilt, usmash, along with others like fair, nair, and even bair in some instances).
IE: You're crazy if you say Norfair is his weakest CP.
Especially since Delfino exists.
Browny
Smash Hater
I meant like norfair/mansion/distant planet/PTAD lol, not as in norfair is absurdly bad or anything. Its hard for anyone to make a call on those since theres so few examples of matches on them :/
Also my walls of text werent aimed at you espy...
Also my walls of text werent aimed at you espy...
I'm aware of the fact. It's called instigating.
From my experiences on Luigi's Mansion, Distant Planet, and Port Town Aero Drive, Sonic does fairly mediocre on the first two, and does pretty **** well on the last.
Of course, in the case for Distant Planet, I still need a bit more experience before I can say how well he does on that level for certain.
He does run away very well on Luigi's, though.
From my experiences on Luigi's Mansion, Distant Planet, and Port Town Aero Drive, Sonic does fairly mediocre on the first two, and does pretty **** well on the last.
Of course, in the case for Distant Planet, I still need a bit more experience before I can say how well he does on that level for certain.
He does run away very well on Luigi's, though.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Fare. You wanted to see how well it would fare.
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