The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Shaya]

Mother of god guys... mother of god.
Why can't I moderate castrate you people for this :\

What are people's thoughts on the tournament dominance increase in Wario since this new tier list?

 

[Browny]

What are people's thoughts on the tournament dominance increase in Wario since this new tier list?

This sums up my thoughts entirely

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I haven't really been paying attention. OMG IT MUST MEAN HE'S THIRD BEST AGAIN

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Mother of god guys... mother of god.
Why can't I moderate castrate you people for this :\

What are people's thoughts on the tournament dominance increase in Wario since this new tier list?

I just think that the Wario rep is getting back to where it was before he moved up to third.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Even with better tourney rep Wario is no better than 5th or 6th best. I do think he's better than ICs though, as he is less affected by bad stage CPs lives a lot longer. Also, he is less gimmicky.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What are people's thoughts on the tournament dominance increase in Wario since this new tier list?

I didn't notice. Who plays Wario anymore? Still, it seems surprising, since it would give people even less incentive to play him.

I regret ever having dropped him, but the time away has really helped my thought process.

 

[YagamiLight]

Ice Climbers are like the ultimate gimmick character. But hey, if it works then it works. Gimmick or not, it's still a OHKO.

Wario, to me, seems very unappealing to learn. Namely because you have to put up with a LOT of bogus from around half the cast. Not saying his character attributes aren't already good but the only logical reason I see to choose Wario is if the other high air speed characters just aren't doing it / you actually like the character. I don't think I could put up with this large amount of bogus against a high tier character.

 

[Laem]

This sums up my thoughts entirely

i was thinking more like
http://www.kyutwo.com/downloads/sfx/ssbb/wario/wario024.wav

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wario, to me, seems very unappealing to learn. Namely because you have to put up with a LOT of bogus from around half the cast. Not saying his character attributes aren't already good but the only logical reason I see to choose Wario is if the other high air speed characters just aren't doing it / you actually like the character. I don't think I could put up with this large amount of bogus against a high tier character.

But there AREN'T any other high-speed characters in the higher tiers that accomplish what Wario can. ZSS is arguable, I suppose...

When you get really good with Wario, you can avoid a vast majority of the grab-release stuff. It's annoying, but a small price to pay for the positive side.

Also, BITE IS RIDICULOUS.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Grabs that aren't grabs are broken in brawl.

I hate that Wario mains always seem to disregard grab-release stuff entirely like it isn't even a factor though. No, it definitely matters. ZSS gets a stock on Wario just for grabbing him after 50%. If his bike is on-stage, she gets a stock at any percent and very quickly. Even Captain Falcon can grab-release him into his strongest kill moves, awesome combo set-ups, etc. And CF's grab is really easy to set up (combos from his awesome jab).

I'm not saying Wario isn't good, it just annoys me that when people bring up the grab-release animation the answer is always "well, a good Wario shouldn't get grabbed!" Even in theorycraft you have to account for a player making a SINGLE MISTAKE over the course of a match or set. The grab-releases are a weakness and a pretty big one, even if they aren't really gamebreaking. It's like Ness' grab-release animation, Zero Suit's grab, ROB's footstool animation (which allows multiple characters to infinite him), Bowser's pummel, etc.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Grabs that aren't grabs are broken in brawl.

I hate that Wario mains always seem to disregard grab-release stuff entirely like it isn't even a factor though. No, it definitely matters. ZSS gets a stock on Wario just for grabbing him after 50%. If his bike is on-stage, she gets a stock at any percent and very quickly. Even Captain Falcon can grab-release him into his strongest kill moves, awesome combo set-ups, etc. And CF's grab is really easy to set up (combos from his awesome jab).

I'm not saying Wario isn't good, it just annoys me that when people bring up the grab-release animation the answer is always "well, a good Wario shouldn't get grabbed!" Even in theorycraft you have to account for a player making a SINGLE MISTAKE over the course of a match or set. The grab-releases are a weakness and a pretty big one, even if they aren't really gamebreaking. It's like Ness' grab-release animation, Zero Suit's grab, ROB's footstool animation (which allows multiple characters to infinite him), Bowser's pummel, etc.

Command grabs have always been a favorite of mine. They're really important for any character lucky enough to have one. <3 Melee Bowser.

I feel that everything is avoidable (especially as Wario); you just have to tailor your gameplay to the matchup, even if that means sitting near the edge or on a platform for a vast majority of the time. People just have varying ideas of how much they can do to reduce weaknesses in competitive play, and they don't necessarily show themselves in practice. Camping on a platform may be harder for ROB to do than Ness, and things like that.

That being said, it's definitely a factor, though in theorycrafting, it's really easy to pretend that people are infallible.

 

[DMG]

Wario, near his max, is really annoying to try and hit. I've timed out MK players before who thought that I would eventually approach with the lead while they zoned in front of me. Some stages I'm working on not losing the first stock til after 5 minutes or longer.

Wario near perfection is an extremely dangerous person to give the lead to.

 

[hichez50]

Wario is hard to grab. Also wario doesn't really need to camp.

 

[Limeee]

Wario is hard to grab. Also wario doesn't really need to camp.

no one needs to camp

just most of the cast does better when they do

wario is amazing at camping

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Grabs that aren't grabs are broken in brawl.

I hate that Wario mains always seem to disregard grab-release stuff entirely like it isn't even a factor though. No, it definitely matters. ZSS gets a stock on Wario just for grabbing him after 50%. If his bike is on-stage, she gets a stock at any percent and very quickly. Even Captain Falcon can grab-release him into his strongest kill moves, awesome combo set-ups, etc. And CF's grab is really easy to set up (combos from his awesome jab).

I'm not saying Wario isn't good, it just annoys me that when people bring up the grab-release animation the answer is always "well, a good Wario shouldn't get grabbed!" Even in theorycraft you have to account for a player making a SINGLE MISTAKE over the course of a match or set. The grab-releases are a weakness and a pretty big one, even if they aren't really gamebreaking. It's like Ness' grab-release animation, Zero Suit's grab, ROB's footstool animation (which allows multiple characters to infinite him), Bowser's pummel, etc.

It's not a factor.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If a good Wario like DMG has ever been grabbed even once in his Brawl carrier of using Wario, it's a factor.

Saying otherwise would be as stupid as saying "Link's bad recovery is not a factor"

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

If a good Wario like DMG has ever been grabbed even once in his Brawl carrier of using Wario, it's a factor.

Saying otherwise would be as stupid as saying "Link's bad recovery is not a factor"

......i'll just take your word for it then.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

......i'll just take your word for it then.

Come on now. All it takes is one good read for someone to get grabbed, lol. Brawl isn't a frame data kind of game, even the best players get grabbed.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Come on now. All it takes is one good read for someone to get grabbed, lol. Brawl isn't a frame data kind of game, even the best players get grabbed.

I'm not saying that I will never get grabbed throughout the match. However, avoiding the grab at kill percentages is a lot more realistic and possible.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

What if 50%+ is kill percent? I don't care if it's "just a pummel infinite," I WILL do it.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

What if 50%+ is kill percent? I don't care if it's "just a pummel infinite," I WILL do it.

50 percent a kill percentagE?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

50 percent a kill percentagE?

In the right place, on the right stage it can be. Particularly if it's against someone like Ike/Snake who can grab release into Utilt.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

No, I'm saying that if some characters grab Wario at 50% it should be death if they do the pummel infinite.

 

[Turbo Ether]

S:
MK

A:
Falco
Diddy
Snake

B:

Imo.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

No, I'm saying that if some characters grab Wario at 50% it should be death if they do the pummel infinite.

pummel infinite?

Turbo your list blows.

 

[Nefarious B]

ZS can grab wario out of his release, pummel, then regrab. You can mash out of her pummel until about 50%, then it becomes a true infinite

 

[DMG]

Actually, I went back and did a count of how many times I have been grabbed by a ZSS as Wario. Meaning throughout my career how many times she had ever grabbed me through multiple matches. I believe that number is under 2-3. The ones that were, luckily, I was too low % wise. This includes playing Nefarious at Genesis, IIRC he didn't get a single grab on me and after 2-3 whiffed ones he didn't want to eat any more Fsmashes or farts.

I'll put it this way: Not getting grabbed is a legitimate argument for him against some characters. SOME. ZSS I strongly believe is one of them. For others, it's a bit harder to judge. Characters with strong options out of grab releases (usually only if I am at kill %) I sometimes play in a way that I purposefully get grabbed because it's one of the least dangerous outcomes for me to face. Take Ike for example. You can see me playing Mr. Doom on Youtube. While Wario has the capacity to avoid a grab from Ike, he risks more and gains less by playing in this fashion than playing in a way that encourages the opponent to grab more or lose out on punishing you more. In fact, against some of those characters, THEY should be the ones afraid of getting grabbed because of the threat of a quick/damaging edgeguard or attack string from Wario.

There's a trade off. Not get grabbed, or play in a way that makes them grab more or else lose.

 

[Purple]

S:
MK

A:
Falco
Diddy
Snake

B:

Imo.

woah


....




woah

in a world where everyone plays perfect and 0-deaths.

Mother of god guys... mother of god.
Why can't I moderate castrate you people for this :\

What are people's thoughts on the tournament dominance increase in Wario since this new tier list?

i guess he gets moved up again?

It just shows that people are playing wario better and wario has better options than you guys expected, it's not something you can predict, you just have to change the tier list as seen fit. Either making characters worse, or making wario better.

 

[Nefarious B]

Ah but DMG you and I both know there was a huge skill gap there. I seem to recall you JV 3 stocking me on the first match, though I think the second one on YI was last stock mid percents. I've gotten better, even though I still wouldn't consider myself good at all, but I know enough now to understand that I didn't know **** back then.

 

[Shaya]

Mm well I'm not sure if Wario is deserving of much of a rise...
He was on a steady decline actually.

He's recently broken back and started doing as well as his tier suggests, is what I'm mostly saying

 

[Purple]

Ah, so pretty much speaking, you're asking how we feel about the tier list being accurate about the character's placings?

That's how the tier list should be in the first place shouldn't it?

 

[Purple]

If a good Wario like DMG has ever been grabbed even once in his Brawl carrier of using Wario, it's a factor.

Saying otherwise would be as stupid as saying "Link's bad recovery is not a factor"

It is a factor, however a very minimal factor. You're making zero suit grabbing wario for an infinite seem like a necessary factor to bring up. It really isn't.

Look at the d3 vs wario matchup, where with d3's amazing grab range he can change and then grab-release to upsmash. This is a huge factor because most of d3's game is grabbing, so in this case it's OBVIOUSLY 70:30 for d3 right?

Wrong.

While it's a big factor in d3's metagame, and is what d3 is looking for. For most wario players, NOT getting grabbed is a factor in their metagame due to shenanigans such as grab release. And Wario can poke at d3 very well, so the matchup is closer to 55:45 when it all comes down to it.

Now, you're saying that zss, who generally isn't a grab heavy character, is going to do a good job against handling wario who is great in the air (definately beats zss in the air), with her grab which is no where as good as d3's and much more punishable?

Not at all..


Also, with the link's recovery as an example, Link players DI extremely well to make up for their horrible recovery, so that their recovery isn't as problematic as you would figure, however, it's still problematic.

Just as much as 'getting grabbed' is a factor, you have to look at 'how well the character can not get grabbed by the said opponent character' as another factor and compare them.

this is all my opinion obv.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Mm well I'm not sure if Wario is deserving of much of a rise...
He was on a steady decline actually.

He's recently broken back and started doing as well as his tier suggests, is what I'm mostly saying

I think it has more to do with his rep than anything. If you take the time to look at who's placing and not just where a character places in tourney results you'll see this. I don't think a character deserves a drop when it's best players either drop him or pick him up for another character.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I know you will probably all think im crazy, but I think MK is the best in this game

 

[Dark 3nergy]

While it's a big factor in d3's metagame, and is what d3 is looking for. For most wario players, NOT getting grabbed is a factor in their metagame due to shenanigans such as grab release. And Wario can poke at d3 very well, so the matchup is closer to 55:45 when it all comes down to it.

the stage selection also seems to push and pull at the MU.

 

[DMG]

Nefarious: I just mentioned that cause we played and you could personally attest to what I said. And yeah second game was much closer.

 

[Purple]

the stage selection also seems to push and pull at the MU.

y'know, I don't know why I didn't bring that up original.

Bah humbug, oh well.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Now, you're saying that zss, who generally isn't a grab heavy character, is going to do a good job against handling wario who is great in the air (definately beats zss in the air)

stopped reading here

 

[Purple]

@rise-

Well, is ZSS as good of a grabber as D3? You're allowed to tell me otherwise, I'd actually LIKE to be proven wrong with information instead of flamed or given a smarty remark..

I'm just saying wario is a hard character to grab period, and ZSS's grab is pretty.

Uh.

Bad. In my opinion, and leaves far too much chance for punishment (especially with how light of a character she is)

 

[YagamiLight]

Not only does ZSS's grab have enough post-lag to guarantee death by Ike Fsmash it's also not particularly fast coming out either (I want to say either 16 or 17 frames). I'm not one to overestimate Wario or anything but I'm pretty sure that getting grabbed by ZSS is essentially not too big of a deal for him since he (and most other characters) can avoid it.

If ZSS misses then that's just a free Waft or Fsmash waiting to happen and she can't exactly tank those hits like that, can she?

Wario DOES get grabbed by either long range grabbers such as King Dedede or people with good enough jabs to cancel into a grab (Ike / Captain Falcon) but I'm pretty sure everyone can agree that ZSS's grab is pretty much "bad" and that Wario's grab avoidance is more or less "good" and as such it's somewhat negligible.