The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Krystedez]

She can downsmash wario and get a grab if she's good at putting wario in that position.

That's the only time her grab's punishableness isn't really a factor and it depends on how much better the ZSS is at catching wario in a downsmash close to the ground than the wario is at avoiding that scenario.

 

[Purple]

Once again Krystedez, it comes to the effectiveness of that situation. How often will wario be on the ground, or close enough to zero suit's hands in order for the d-smash to help.

 

[adumbrodeus]

@rise-

Well, is ZSS as good of a grabber as D3? You're allowed to tell me otherwise, I'd actually LIKE to be proven wrong with information instead of flamed or given a smarty remark..

I'm just saying wario is a hard character to grab period, and ZSS's grab is pretty.

Uh.

Bad. In my opinion, and leaves far too much chance for punishment (especially with how light of a character she is)

Not only does ZSS's grab have enough post-lag to guarantee death by Ike Fsmash it's also not particularly fast coming out either (I want to say either 16 or 17 frames). I'm not one to overestimate Wario or anything but I'm pretty sure that getting grabbed by ZSS is essentially not too big of a deal for him since he (and most other characters) can avoid it.

If ZSS misses then that's just a free Waft or Fsmash waiting to happen and she can't exactly tank those hits like that, can she?

Wario DOES get grabbed by either long range grabbers such as King Dedede or people with good enough jabs to cancel into a grab (Ike / Captain Falcon) but I'm pretty sure everyone can agree that ZSS's grab is pretty much "bad" and that Wario's grab avoidance is more or less "good" and as such it's somewhat negligible.

Notice where he stopped....


"definitely beats zss in the air".

ZSS has a ridiculously good airgame, saying wario "definitely beats her" is either overratting wario's, underrating ZSS's, or both.

 

[Krystedez]

Once again Krystedez, it comes to the effectiveness of that situation. How often will wario be on the ground, or close enough to zero suit's hands in order for the d-smash to help.

What goes up, must come down.

 

[Purple]

Wario's whole game is slowing down the opponent. Honestly, I'll take the hit and say that I did underestimate ZSS's air game, or overestimate wario's air-camping, I don't play much of either character, so i feel my comment is out of place.

What goes up, must come down.

After a long long period of time.

 

[phi1ny3]

Her air game is amazing.

Her ground game/shield exploitation might leave much to be desired though (although dash attack combos are pretty cool).

 

[Z'zgashi]

Her air game is amazing.

Her ground game/shield exploitation might leave much to be desired though (although dash attack combos are pretty cool).

Ive never played a good ZSS but from what I've seen (through vids and personal use) her air game seems quite good. I think her ground game is overall pretty bad though... :/

 

[Purple]

So, considering ZSS's AIR GAME is good, and her GROUND game is bad.

Why would she be looking for grabs so often? lol

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Her ground game is totally based on her ability to read her opponent. If that makes it bad, then it's bad. I would not say that's entirely correct, though. Her tilts are really good (especially down tilt) and her up smash and down smash are useful but situational. The problem with her ground game is more that it's built to pop the opponent upward after a read, not to do battle on the ground long-term.

If I had to say something to sum up her ground game it would be something like, "she has an answer and option for everything, but only one." Utilt is one of the best out of shield options in the game, but it's her only one, so that makes it predictable. Down tilt is an awesome ground-based move, but it's built for one very obvious purpose and isn't something you spam. Jab is a great escape move, but is easily punishable unless you do it when your opponent is in a bad position already. It's a decent ground game. Her only "bad" ground moves are fsmash and grab. Her grab is bad, but not unusable. I land grabs all the time, believe it or not, even on Wario players!

EDIT: Also, there's the fact that her ground game isn't really even all that useful because her aerials and short hop are pretty good. She plays a lot like Peach sans floating, I guess. Random video link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k3uJd2XK8M (first one popped up on YouTube); how much of the ground game is even used here?

Well, is ZSS as good of a grabber as D3? You're allowed to tell me otherwise, I'd actually LIKE to be proven wrong with information instead of flamed or given a smarty remark..

Obviously she is not as good a grabber as King Dedede. Most characters aren't. But, it is definitely possible to grab Wario. What comes up must come down.

 

[Purple]

While I'd REALLY not looking to DMG's experience, considering he hasn't every ZSS accessible. He explained how he in his entire career, has only been grabbed by ZSS a total of 2-3 times. Like I said, I don't like going into personal experiences, however that says ALOT. In high level play, wario barely gets grabbed in that MU (apparently, unless i'm proven otherwise).

The problem with your statement is that generally speaking, everyone has an option for (almost) everything if they think far ahead enough. It doesn't make their actual options any better, nor does it make their options any more viable.

Rise if this is the case, would you mind telling us who's Wario you grab consistently, and how do you grab them?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Rise if this is the case, would you mind telling us who's Wario you grab consistently, and how do you grab them?

First of all, it doesn't matter which Wario players I have grabbed or what I've done at all. Second, you don't have to do something "consistently" for it to be a factor in a match-up, especially not a 50+-death "infinite" (for lack of a better phrase). Landing it just once in a set is a big deal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvzw0vfVwhc I did find this video, though. Charby and Gluttony are very good players. Charby doesn't land a grab in this match but does land dsmash a few times, and one time the bike was on the stage. Both of these could have been stocks. It's just one video but it shows you how ZSS could land ground moves on Wario (gasp).

 

[Purple]

:/ There was actually a reason I asked you to tell me Rise.
Time for an example!

I could say the matchup for captain falcon vs rob is 90:10 because I can infinite ROB with captain falcon's infinite.

Then someone would counter saying the infinite is extremely unlikely to pull off in tournament.

Then I would counter saying.

"well have you know, I hit that Inifinite on ROBs all the time in my state! It really is viable and easier to pull off than you think!"

Now we're at a point where someone is giving information saying that the infinite to death combo is common to hit on ROB. If we stopped there and used that as valid information, it would steeply change the matchup to C.Falcon's favor. However there is information withheld.

• Who did he play? Could this opponent be considered a solid ROB player?
• Does the ROB player actually know the Matchup well?
• How did he manage to get the infinite? Was it something purely matchup related, or something mindgame related? (things that require mindgames shouldn't really affect the ratio, because not all ROBs will roll towards Captain Falcon half screen allowing C.Falc to begin his infinite.)
• Did he have large amounts of experience playing those ROBs (this goes into the mindgame factor)

Come to find out, the ROB was a mid-level ROB player who has a strong habit of rolling towards his opponent at certain distances. Which makes the idea of the inf'ing someone less likely for someone who doesn't have such a daunting habit.

So.. I did have a valid reason of asking, which I hope if you find it reasonable enough you would answer.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

First of all, it doesn't matter which Wario players I have grabbed or what I've done at all. Second, you don't have to do something "consistently" for it to be a factor in a match-up, especially not a 50+-death "infinite" (for lack of a better phrase). Landing it just once in a set is a big deal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvzw0vfVwhc I did find this video, though. Charby and Gluttony are very good players. Charby doesn't land a grab in this match but does land dsmash a few times, and one time the bike was on the stage. Both of these could have been stocks. It's just one video but it shows you how ZSS could land ground moves on Wario (gasp).

How does you posting a video of ZSS not grabbing Wario prove your point?

 

[DMG]

I watched that video. I don't want to even go into detail over how many wrong things I saw in that fight. Wrong not as in tiny mistakes or slight wrong decisions, but wrong as in "WHY?!? NOOO you have much better options ASNJDKAAD".

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I watched that video. I don't want to even go into detail over how many wrong things I saw in that fight. Wrong not as in tiny mistakes or slight wrong decisions, but wrong as in "WHY?!? NOOO you have much better options ASNJDKAAD".

If it helps, Gluttony won the set

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I'm personally not a fan of either Glutonny(DOUBLE N, RISE) or Charby. I do like Glutonny's MK though, it's a lot more beast than his Wario.

I've played ZSS vs Wario to death and also saw another player (Mr R) play it against the same opponent as me. It's even, imo.
That said, ZSS' ground game isn't bad, it's based on prediction.

 

[Purple]

I wish more reasoning would be given for why ZSS : Wario is even besides for an infinite that is hard to get in most people eyes, and ZSS's great air game when wario has an evenly good air manueverability.

 

[GimR]

Seeing as an Ike player is winning tournaments in Up-State New York, maybe he should be out of low tier lol. He's doing good against good people.

 

[Purple]

Well, then that asks the question, what is low tier?

He does horrible against most top tiers played efficiently (I think he actually does relatively well against snake, but nonetheless, in snake's favor :| ). low tiers can't stand a chance against him (as shown constantly in low tier tournaments from san). However, mid tiers can beat him out with gimmicks or have an advantage against him.

And putting him in his own tier would be silly lol.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Seeing as an Ike player is winning tournaments in Up-State New York, maybe he should be out of low tier lol. He's doing good against good people.

Well thats only one person... just because biglou placed top 8 with luigi in the mlg doesnt mean luigi should be high tier...

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I wish more reasoning would be given for why ZSS : Wario is even besides for an infinite that is hard to get in most people eyes, and ZSS's great air game when wario has an evenly good air manueverability.

I don't think the MU is considered even because of the infinite. I'm pretty sure rise is the only ZSS that's pimping that like it's that's much of a factor. Also believe that the Wario's felt it was a little in their favor. You can look at the MU thread for more info if you want to take it that far.

 

[DaomarIsBear]

Well thats only one person... just because boss placed top 8 with luigi in the mlg doesnt mean luigi should be high tier...

Boss didn't place top 8 at mlg, biglou did.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Well, then that asks the question, what is low tier?

He does horrible against most top tiers played efficiently (I think he actually does relatively well against snake, but nonetheless, in snake's favor :| ). low tiers can't stand a chance against him (as shown constantly in low tier tournaments from san). However, mid tiers can beat him out with gimmicks or have an advantage against him.

And putting him in his own tier would be silly lol.

Yoshi does quite good against high tiers, its the select mids that screw him :/

 

[Purple]

Well thats only one person... just because boss placed top 8 with luigi in the mlg doesnt mean luigi should be high tier...

Do you mean Biglou? Or is this another MLG event I missed out on hearing the hype about.

While it doesn't mean that ike is immediately out of low tier, ike's wins have been consistent. Ally's 'legendary' falcon lost to san at WHOBO 2. On top of that, san didn't lose a single match until winners finals where he met Ally, it really does say alot for ike.

 

[GimR]

Do you mean Biglou? Or is this another MLG event I missed out on hearing the hype about.

While it doesn't mean that ike is immediately out of low tier, ike's wins have been consistent. Ally's 'legendary' falcon lost to san at WHOBO 2. On top of that, san didn't lose a single match until winners finals where he met Ally, it really does say alot for ike.

yeah, the MK match up is probably horrible. It just seems that Ike dominates low tiers, maybe he should be at the bottom of mid?


I mean, I don't want to take any money from San.


I think after this new tier list it seems people are starting to have mid tier tournaments anyways because it's pretty balanced lol.

 

[Purple]

lol, well the whole point of low tier battles is that they are underused and can't win in a regular setting. Generally speaking (meaning in mid-level and high level tourneys, but not exactly top levle) mid-tiers can do relatively well.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The average ratio for Ike vs Low Tiers is 55-45. The average ratio for Ike against Mid Tiers is 50-50. The average ratio for Ike against High tiers is 40-60.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=271374

Ike is indeed a small step above the rest of low tier. It's completely mind boggling why Lucas is above Ike right now. There is absolutely nothing to support it. I could also bring up arguments as to why Ike should be above Ness and Bowser. Particularly Bowser.

 

[Purple]

how, in the WORLD are those match-ups correct for Ike and he's low tier?!?

You guys really don't know ratioswell or Ike is retardedly underrated:X

 

[Nidtendofreak]

We know our ratios well. You can look at San and Mr.Doom's in particular if you scroll down and click their links: those are the two placing the best. They have the most tournament experience/best tournament places, and their ratios are very close to the board average.

The only thing up in the air really is just how badly MK beats Ike. It's somewhere between 40-60 (from Mr.Doom, who faces the most MKs out of the lot of us), and 0-100 (from one of the Texas Ikes).

 

[Purple]

40-60 is saying that it's only a minor disadvantage, and in most cases you can come out wiht a win. You realize that 40-60 is actually a pretty good matchup right for a low tier going against a high tier right? Just because it's disadv. doesn't mean it's BAD.

I'm not saying San and Dr.Doom don't know their match ups, because they do. I know San does for a fact because he's quite the smart player. But I feel that the matchups ratios aren't thought up as clearly as expected.

 

[Turbo Ether]

So, what S, A and B tier matchups does Ike only lose 4/6?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

So, what S, A and B tier matchups does Ike only lose 4/6?

You could have looked at the list yourself, but:

Snake: 4-6
Diddy: 4-6
ICs: 5-5
Wario: 45-55
Pikachu: 45-55
Lucario: 4-6
G&W: 45-55

 

[Turbo Ether]

You could have looked at the list yourself, but:

Snake: 4-6
Diddy: 4-6
ICs: 5-5
Wario: 45-55
Pikachu: 45-55
Lucario: 4-6
G&W: 45-55

At the top of the metagame, Ike should be able to beat Snake 40% of the time? Interesting.

 

[Purple]

At the top of the metagame, Ike should be able to beat Snake 40% of the time? Interesting.

man, that post hit me hard, thank you so much for saying that.

That is what a ratio is guys, how much of a chance do they have to win at even skill level :|. now, Ally has played San a total of four matches in a competitive setting to my knowledge, and has won three of the four matches (not sets, matches, ally wins 2-0 for sets). While to the T, I'm sure the ike:snake matchup isn't 25:75 snake. Don't you think 40:60 is pushing it?

Oh god almighty can i see this post getting flamed later.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The funny thing with Brawl is that ratios don't directly translate into win % like you think it should. It's a problem that has been brought up a lot, but there are a lot more variables in the SSB then a regular fighting game. Every character board has to make the ratios in this way, but that leaves subjectivity as to how they are interpreted.

There is also the fact ratios assume perfectly even skill level. How can you tell if two people are perfectly even? It's best to think of ratios as "Even" "Slight Advantage/Disadvantage", ect, with anything over 3-7 being unwinnable, 50-50 being even, and everything in between an estimation on how hard it is to win.

Also: as amazing as San is, Ally is probably overall more skilled. Very, very few people can reach that level. :/

 

[Purple]

but there are a lot more variables in the SSB then a regular fighting game. Every character board has to make the ratios in this way, but that leaves subjectivity as to how they are interpreted.

lol, in all seriousness though, i'm going to post on what you said here later

There is also the fact ratios assume perfectly even skill level. How can you tell if two people are perfectly even? It's best to think of ratios as "Even" "Slight Advantage/Disadvantage", ect, with anything over 3-7 being unwinnable, 50-50 being even, and everything in between an estimation on how hard it is to win.

Well, in order to show even skill, you take away mindgames, and rationalize purely what the characters can do to one another in my opinion.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Just because a ratio looks unwinnable doesnt mean it isnt once skill level is added

 

[DaomarIsBear]

Just because a ratio looks unwinnable doesnt mean it isnt once skill level is added

It is if you add skill level to both sides....

 

[Z'zgashi]

If, and thats why smash is so amazing

 

[Purple]

That's the whole thing Z'zgashi. people think the ratios are a certain way because of the fact that they've had experiences that are different than others. someone extrmeely smart playing a bunch of scrubs could think that mkf is pretty good for CF, just because they're too smart.