The North Carolina Melee Power Rankings! Updated 8/14/14!

[Dr Peepee]

Dreamland, the match you linked.

Adjust the times slightly as needed.

 

[stingers]

dreamland okay. :15, the video freezes, but peach fh nairs, she doesnt even float >.>

17 is when he beats her float with dj dair. you say armada could've beaten it, but clearly if it doesn't occur to the best peach player in the world when he's playing, its probably not very realistic...you're just assuming that armada is going to react to everything perfectly, lol. no **** everything falco does has some sort of counter, everything peach does has some sort of counter too, and everything everyone does has some sort of counter. this "what if" stuff is unnecessary.

at 24, armada floats and mango hides under the platform. mango doesnt even try to go after him until after he had already completely fallen, mango wasnt even trying to compete with the float there, he was just trying to land a hit when he was falling, since he predicted armada would shield (or I assume thats why he overshot his dair, since its harder to follow up that way), instead armada jabbed. yes, peach has great options out of a fc, thats pretty common knowledge >.>

33 is when mango lasers armada when hes falling from the float. which you said was what falco should be doing. then you say what he did afterwards was stupid because it wasn't guaranteed. lmao @ your melee mentality, seriously kevin?

at 1:14, mango was on the total opposite side of the stage and couldn't of done anything if he wanted to anyway, but yes, its very risky for falco to go offstage, we know kevin.

1:45, mango beats it out. okay, thanks. lol.

so of the 5 floats over lasers he used in the entire 4 and a half minute match (clearly a broken tactic, being abused so often), there were 2 times when he wasn't punished for it, one of those times when he was on the opposite side of the stage.

alright then.

 

[Lightsyde]

I think Kevin's internet died and he went to bed, but I'm sure he'll respond when he wakes up because I'm too tired to actually go back and analyze that particular match too.

I did just watch the whole set though, and overall, the float strategy worked out super well for him in most instances. If anything, I'd say 5th match it worked the least and I'd say that had something to do with Mango having adapted to Armada more than anything.

I would however like to point out that Mango (the best Falco) not only loses this set to Armada (the best Peach) but also gets ***** later on when he tries to go Falco in GF and promptly switches to Jiggs in order to win. No Falco has beaten Armada (to my knowledge) in a set since before Genesis.

Anyway, going to bed now.

 

[DJRome]

i hate peach shield pressure more than falco's (and sometimes fox's)

that is all

 

[bossa nova ♪]

...what yay said is very important, whether he was reading well enough or not, it's relevant somewhere if not here.. and i can make it relevant with my super awesome typey language powerz.

like... thank god falco can't just do everything he wanted to peach's shield. im so happy peach's shield is **** and that i am actually put in a situation to outsmart my opponent instead of do auto-bull****.

this is a good thing. it's not gay. it's balance. balance =/= gay. (real talk.)

so good **** peach.




and it's even or slight adv for falco. uair *****. idgaf

 

[Bl@ckChris]

well that was a nice morning read.

peach vs ganon is fun. Dop is really good. I haven't enjoyed being beaten like that in a while, because I actually saw things I hadn't seen before. Being owned by spacies is always the same thing every time...but peach is fun.

aasem is such a cool guy too.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

I'm so glad that PEach is such a hot topic nowadays

In slightly related news....

I don't think that Peach is IC's worst matchup. It has the highest learning curve, yes but I still think that Marth/Fox are IC's worst matchups. Peach may be 3rd or 4th worst though.

I suck at the matchup but I think I enjoy it. Kinda

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Also, I JUST watched the Wobbles vs MEw2ing set.

**** YOU, JOSH, for not thinking that Wobbles is any good.

Holy ****, best set I have ever watched ever.

<3

 

[Diatenshi]

if peach is at the usual just over SH laser height, if ur on FD or in a position where plats arent in the way, FH,FF,double laser, the second should hit them out of their float

im not talking about DJff laser where one hits high and the other low, im talking 1 straight full hop with a ff at the top so ur laser hits midway

 

[Juno McGrath]

Me and Zach lol'd at "out played him clearly but got chaingrabbed" we also lol'd at " you can't use mango as an example" and we lol'd the hardest at this imaginary world where float last for an infinite amount of time and you can't be lasered out of it anyway.

InB4 were back to jiggs

Edit: yay *****

 

[Diatenshi]

Me and Zach lol'd at "out played him clearly but got chaingrabbed" we also lol'd at " you can't use mango as an example" and we lol'd the hardest at this imaginary world where float last for an infinite amount of time and you can't be lasered out of it anyway.

InB4 were back to jiggs

Edit: yay *****

funny how nobody in this state *****es about marth, who is probably better vs. falco than peach... i mean 0-death chaingrabs vs. peaches like 30-80 chaingrab, ive had randoms matches (count = at least 3 ) vs. josh's falco where i 3 stocked it off reapeated gay throw off stage > gimp.


apparently im not gay enough yet, you either Theo

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

I gotta say honestly, after reading the whole discussion, I agree with alot of what Yay has to say.

And I love Stingers so much. The "melee mentality" thing made me giggle.

Also, Kevin didn't post all of the frame data for Falco's shield pressure. Really just start-up/cool-down frames. He forgot the shieldstun/hitlag, which makes Falco's shield pressure alot harder to deal with than what it looks like from his post.

The Shield pressure that everyone is referring to from peach is most likely Nair -> single/double jab -> Nair.....

FCNair has +4 FA on sheild. So there are 4 frames where the person sheilding can't do ANYTHING at all. Peach's fastest move(Jab) comes out in 2 frames but also gives you a negative frame advantage on block. You get -10 on block for jab1 and -11 for doing double slaps. From what I can see, that means you have a whole 1/6 of a second to do whatever you can to peach out of shield. Or just roll out so she can't catch you. Now, let's say Peach is pressuring Falco's shield with Nair->slaps. If she does the same thing repeatedly, Falco could jump out with a Nair. -11 Frame advantage for PEach + a 5 frame jump for Falco and a 4 frame nair = Falco has 3 frames of leeway to punish peach if everyone is playing frame perfect. Note that I'm saying 3 frames of leeway instead of 2 because the fastest thing she can do is shield, which is 1 frame i believe. However, jab1 is cancellable into jab2 on frames 3-25, which means she has alot of leeway as far as mixing up the timing to catch you out of a roll, jump, etc and putting on the hurt for it.

The safest(IE can't be punished) form of shield pressure that Peach has is probably FCFair -> Dsmash(FA for FCFair is like +4 or something and Dsmash has redonkulous shieldstun and pushes them too far to punish out of shield) but that **** doesn't loop at all and is easily escapable if you just lightshield and shield DI so that you get pushed too far away. PEach's FCNAir -> Jab pressure only seems good to force a reaction with so that she can punish it with something.


That being said, she definitely has a top level shield pressure game, just nowhere near the likes of Fox/FAlco, which isn't nearly as unsafe as PEach's shield pressure.

Also, yeah, PEach's Dtilt is a low mixup in her shield pressure but the startup is mad high. Why dtilt for a low instead of just Dsmashing, which hits low and does more damage. Unless you're looing for a combo out of Dtilt. LOL can't Falco just Utilt for High/low mixups while shield pressuring? Doesn't the hitbox for that start super low? If he can't, I'm sure he could Dtilt and get similiar results lol.

Super Frame Data Bros

Also, getting grabbed on FD as spacies is not outplaying them, since the point of spacies on FD is to not get grabbed. Armada outplayed Mango.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

OMG what have I done?

biggest waste of time ever.

 

[stingers]

lol it was actually pretty informative plur. thanks for that =]

 

[Diatenshi]

I gotta say honestly, after reading the whole discussion, I agree with alot of what Yay has to say.

And I love Stingers so much. The "melee mentality" thing made me giggle.

Also, Kevin didn't post all of the frame data for Falco's shield pressure. Really just start-up/cool-down frames. He forgot the shieldstun/hitlag, which makes Falco's shield pressure alot harder to deal with than what it looks like from his post.

The Shield pressure that everyone is referring to from peach is most likely Nair -> single/double jab -> Nair.....

FCNair has +4 FA on sheild. So there are 4 frames where the person sheilding can't do ANYTHING at all. Peach's fastest move(Jab) comes out in 2 frames but also gives you a negative frame advantage on block. You get -10 on block for jab1 and -11 for doing double slaps. From what I can see, that means you have a whole 1/6 of a second to do whatever you can to peach out of shield. Or just roll out so she can't catch you. Now, let's say Peach is pressuring Falco's shield with Nair->slaps. If she does the same thing repeatedly, Falco could jump out with a Nair. -11 Frame advantage for PEach + a 5 frame jump for Falco and a 4 frame nair = Falco has 3 frames of leeway to punish peach if everyone is playing frame perfect. Note that I'm saying 3 frames of leeway instead of 2 because the fastest thing she can do is shield, which is 1 frame i believe. However, jab1 is cancellable into jab2 on frames 3-25, which means she has alot of leeway as far as mixing up the timing to catch you out of a roll, jump, etc and putting on the hurt for it.

The safest(IE can't be punished) form of shield pressure that Peach has is probably FCFair -> Dsmash(FA for FCFair is like +4 or something and Dsmash has redonkulous shieldstun and pushes them too far to punish out of shield) but that **** doesn't loop at all and is easily escapable if you just lightshield and shield DI so that you get pushed too far away. PEach's FCNAir -> Jab pressure only seems good to force a reaction with so that she can punish it with something.


That being said, she definitely has a top level shield pressure game, just nowhere near the likes of Fox/FAlco, which isn't nearly as unsafe as PEach's shield pressure.

Also, yeah, PEach's Dtilt is a low mixup in her shield pressure but the startup is mad high. Why dtilt for a low instead of just Dsmashing, which hits low and does more damage. Unless you're looing for a combo out of Dtilt. LOL can't Falco just Utilt for High/low mixups while shield pressuring? Doesn't the hitbox for that start super low? If he can't, I'm sure he could Dtilt and get similiar results lol.

Super Frame Data Bros

Also, getting grabbed on FD as spacies is not outplaying them, since the point of spacies on FD is to not get grabbed. Armada outplayed Mango.

is it really only 1 frame to sheild? i swore it was like 3.... i know its like 3 frames to put down your sheild in a normal manner (not jumping out of or sheildgrabbing)

so i think theres actually more advantage forr spacies if they get jabbed on sheild than just those 11 you stated

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

funny how nobody in this state *****es about marth, who is probably better vs. falco than peach... i mean 0-death chaingrabs vs. peaches like 30-80 chaingrab, ive had randoms matches (count = at least 3 ) vs. josh's falco where i 3 stocked it off reapeated gay throw off stage > gimp.


apparently im not gay enough yet, you either Theo

I'm pretty sure that Marth is better than Peach vs everyone as far as matchups are concerned.

But Marth is also accepted as a real character. Go figure.


LOL thanks, Alex. I'll probably try to do the same thing for Falco/Fox.

[edit= forgot peach lol]

 

[Diatenshi]

I'm pretty sure that Marth is better than Peach vs everyone as far as matchups are concerned.

But Marth is also accepted as a real character. Go figure.


LOL thanks, Alex. I'll probably try to do the same thing for Falco/Fox.

[edit= forgot peach lol]

puff is the only not real character, she's got a **** attached to her forehead

<3 all those peachy ppl, FCuair more, that ****s mad sexay

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Actually, now that I think about it, I take it back.

The safest form of Sheild pressure that PEach probably has is repeated FCNAirs on sheild, no jabs in between if you're frame-perfect.

6-frame jump + 1 frame to initiate the float + 3 frame Nair - 4 frame advantage = 6 frames

However, if they roll after blockstun but before the Nair's hitbox(which is easy as hell if you just buffer), you can't do **** because PEach is slow.

Which is why I think PEach's usually mix in the jabs in between Float cancels, so they can tick-grab you or something.

 

[mr.fizwidget]

*picking up peach

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

*picking up peach

ME TOO!

If I could stop having fun with IC. She's def my second favorite good char.

 

[Lightsyde]

Me and Zach lol'd at "out played him clearly but got chaingrabbed" we also lol'd at " you can't use mango as an example" and we lol'd the hardest at this imaginary world where float last for an infinite amount of time and you can't be lasered out of it anyway.

InB4 were back to jiggs

Edit: yay *****

Why is it you (Dylan) only decide to criticize my posts when I talk about Peach? It's not my fault I probably know more about your character than you do and that I definitely knows tons more about the match up in question, and even more still about Melee in general.

I don't really think chaingrabbing constitutes outplaying somebody. That is my opinion.

And please quote where I said her float lasted an infinite amount of time (I didn't) and you cannot hit her with a SH laser or regular FH lasers. You have to FH specifically timed shots and those are cannot be done if you're standing under side platforms and if you're in the middle of the stage, that is probably where she is floating. You can hypothetically shoot them off platforms but again you'll probably get punished before you can get in position, and Dreamland is really the only place that lasers can do a lot (due to platform hype, Aasem told me about this yesterday).

 

[bossa nova ♪]

but combos started and continued primarily with a 1 frame move that shoots the opponent up with enough hitstun to make it nearly all reactionary, this is 'admirable' skill?

not getting a grab on the hardest character to grab and capitalizing with ur character's ability to combo off reaction, this is not admirable.


if u get grabbed, u get beat. at high level, grabbing is increasingly difficult and also increasingly more devastating. im not sure how much u know about the game josh, but if ur opinion is what u typed up there about CGing and outplaying someone, read the two sentences at the top of this post. i feel like a lot of the things u 'know' are based off unresolved bias and things other people say (which both relate in funny ways). u should really try shifting ur understanding of the game to something more versatile.... ur always just trying to look for ur limitations in a match up as if ur stocking up on balloons for the john parade, but u should be positive and focus on ur freedoms and ask questions instead of being so solidified in the legitimacy of a complaint for the sake of it being the reason u lost instead of something bigger and more important.


i still <3 u, just giving my 2 cents.

 

[Juno McGrath]

LOL what do i know man im just a scrub *** peach player.


Im just going to play falcon from now on. I guess to6 will be my last tournament with peach.

so whatever im used to losing by now anyway.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

I dunno about Dylan but I know that personally, it sucks to have alot of the community **** on your character when your character isn't that good to begin with. Especially when the characters that 90% of the community plays(Fox, Falco, MArth, etc...) have more options at almost any given moment. It's kinda dumb when people claim that your character takes no skill. Makes you feel like your wins don't mean anything and makes you just not try as hard.

Or at least, that's how I feel.

Also, if chaingrabs /= outplaying someone then combos shouldn't equal that either.

In which case, why don't we just play brawl(no offense, Alex).

 

[Juno McGrath]

I dunno about Dylan but I know that personally, it sucks to have alot of the community **** on your character when your character isn't that good to begin with. Especially when the characters that 90% of the community plays(Fox, Falco, MArth, etc...) have more options at almost any given moment. It's kinda dumb when people claim that your character takes no skill. Makes you feel like your wins don't mean anything and makes you just not try as hard.

Or at least, that's how I feel.

Yeah thats how every tournament/ time i visit the boards feels like. You beat a fox player whos 90% of the time making up for not knowing matchups by hiding behind tech skill and getting away with it. but you only did it because peach is gay. I play a character that has no winning matchups with any character above her on the tier list but anytime i do anything good its because peach is gay. anytime i take a stock i "Didnt earn it" So i mean, its honestly making me feel like ****. Id rather play falcon and lose then listen to people john about peach. THIS IS MELEE. there are more characters than falco fox and falcon. ****ing deal with it please.

If peach is so god **** broken and falco just gets so crushed by her why is there only one good one? god ****.

I like Peach but she's horrible.

It's just ****ing hard playing a character who is not as good as the ones above her (and who are most common at tournaments) and then to have crowds tell you she takes no skill to play and have everyone cheer against you because Peach is gay.

 

[stingers]

yo dylan just switch to mewtwo.

 

[bossa nova ♪]

im not gonna get in to this whole laser thing.... i have an issue that kevin doesn't have where i don't know how to express as encompassing and yet concise enough the amount of things that are occuring/can occur in the relationship of two characters a general enough situation of peach floating and falco below the float.

i do know that you obviously want to not be under it or at the range of her falling fair as she does it (lol). i also am pretty sure that you rarely ever HAVE to be (unless ur dumb), especially since her horizontal movement is so slow.

the bottom line is that you can laser peach out of float and you can hit her out of float. these things are possible. a lot of situations in melee (those neutral ones :D) the deciding factor in who gets the hit (and thus the momentum) comes down to this small manipulation of spacing in a small window of time. i just feel like since falco is faster and remains safe with lasers, he's never being as risky as peach when he's on defense or offense. the peach really has to be the predictor to win. she probably ****s falco up more off one instance, but i think that's in balance as well, since i believe falco is more easily able to get hits in and remain safe while doing so. PP, enlighten me.


@the match up in general: i think with the stage list, falco wins.


a message to falcos: 1. i don't like any of u. get on my level of sexiness f@gs. 2. FH more. u have like, the highest jump and 2nd fastest fall speed. FH *****. just saiyan..

 

[bossa nova ♪]

I dunno about Dylan but I know that personally, it sucks to have alot of the community **** on your character when your character isn't that good to begin with. Especially when the characters that 90% of the community plays(Fox, Falco, MArth, etc...) have more options at almost any given moment. It's kinda dumb when people claim that your character takes no skill. Makes you feel like your wins don't mean anything and makes you just not try as hard.

sometimes plur says things that are just like.... ugh. so true.


no ****ing johns.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

One day, my Ice Climbers will be heartless.

and when that day comes.

OH what a glorious day it shall be.

 

[Dr Peepee]

dreamland okay. :15, the video freezes, but peach fh nairs, she doesnt even float >.>

17 is when he beats her float with dj dair. you say armada could've beaten it, but clearly if it doesn't occur to the best peach player in the world when he's playing, its probably not very realistic...you're just assuming that armada is going to react to everything perfectly, lol. no **** everything falco does has some sort of counter, everything peach does has some sort of counter too, and everything everyone does has some sort of counter. this "what if" stuff is unnecessary.

at 24, armada floats and mango hides under the platform. mango doesnt even try to go after him until after he had already completely fallen, mango wasnt even trying to compete with the float there, he was just trying to land a hit when he was falling, since he predicted armada would shield (or I assume thats why he overshot his dair, since its harder to follow up that way), instead armada jabbed. yes, peach has great options out of a fc, thats pretty common knowledge >.>

33 is when mango lasers armada when hes falling from the float. which you said was what falco should be doing. then you say what he did afterwards was stupid because it wasn't guaranteed. lmao @ your melee mentality, seriously kevin?

at 1:14, mango was on the total opposite side of the stage and couldn't of done anything if he wanted to anyway, but yes, its very risky for falco to go offstage, we know kevin.

1:45, mango beats it out. okay, thanks. lol.

so of the 5 floats over lasers he used in the entire 4 and a half minute match (clearly a broken tactic, being abused so often), there were 2 times when he wasn't punished for it, one of those times when he was on the opposite side of the stage.

alright then.

Alright then, I'm going to start adding in color to my responses like you to make you feel really stupid since that's apparently how you argue now.

I shouldn't have humored your video response for several reasons. The most readily obvious reason being that you have absolutely no theory/concepts that the video is supporting. You're just saying "yeah you're wrong cuz mango beats armada lol good stuff Kevin wow melee players." If you had said something like "this match shows that floating is not some all-powerful technique because you see Armada rarely taking full control of the match with it and here are some instances when this is true" then that works a little better but it still doesn't actually make up for your lack of theory(which was totally refuted, but you decided to go to videos anyway).

If you actually wanted to prove(what did you want to prove again? I don't think you had an argument besides "I'm going to say floating a lot and make it out to look like kevin is dumb") something, you first have to have some theoretical foundation of your argument(either strategy-based or character attribute-based) and THEN, once you have argued to a certain point, you can tentatively include matches in your discussion.

Even at this point, it's still weak to just include ONE particular match of ONE set between TWO people. That's extremely limiting data all around and isn't much to prove your argument of(what was that again? floating not being broken or something?) floating not being broken or something.


You're also viewing this match from a really basic perspective. What is Mango doing to stop Armada from floating(hint: he's going high, which is what Peach likes)? You ever figure out why Mango only tried to shoot lasers a few times that match(hint: BECAUSE HE WILL LOSE OUT IF HE MESSES AROUND ON THE GROUND)? Do you even know what his counter strategy was, and why it's beneficial to Armada/Peach(Hint: platform camping/FH or DJ aerial DI Dair mixups)? All of that coming from the base fact that Falco cannot directly challenge Peach's floating. That is fact.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

[edit= good ****, ocean]

 

[Lightsyde]

but combos started and continued primarily with a 1 frame move that shoots the opponent up with enough hitstun to make it nearly all reactionary, this is 'admirable' skill?

not getting a grab on the hardest character to grab and capitalizing with ur character's ability to combo off reaction, this is not admirable.


if u get grabbed, u get beat. at high level, grabbing is increasingly difficult and also increasingly more devastating. im not sure how much u know about the game josh, but if ur opinion is what u typed up there about CGing and outplaying someone, read the two sentences at the top of this post. i feel like a lot of the things u 'know' are based off unresolved bias and things other people say (which both relate in funny ways). u should really try shifting ur understanding of the game to something more versatile.... ur always just trying to look for ur limitations in a match up as if ur stocking up on balloons for the john parade, but u should be positive and focus on ur freedoms and ask questions instead of being so solidified in the legitimacy of a complaint for the sake of it being the reason u lost instead of something bigger and more important.


i still <3 u, just giving my 2 cents.

Yes. Combo'ing Peach off of the shine for a large amount of damage is difficult, in my opinion. It requires a lot of precision, smart reactions and tight timing. If any of those things aren't on point, you either miss the follow up or get Nair'd. Combo'ing someone past a certain percent requires some reading/tech chasing and therefore more and more opportunities for you to mess up/them to find a way out.

Chain grabbing is a skill, I'm not disputing that. It takes solid reaction time. But once you are good at this, there is virtually no escape from Peach's chaingrab. The only thing you can really do is either DI off the edge as early as possible (bad spot for Falco) or go up and slightly behind (which is trickier for them but not impossible to grab). Chaingrabbing Spacies/Falcon with Peach from 15 to 85 ceases to even be challenging around the mid percents, and at that point, there isn't anything even comparable to real combos. On FD, Falco can't do a lot of his more **** combos to Peach, and she gets her chaingrab to Fthrow/Nair. I just don't see how CG'ing in this context constitutes outplaying someone anymore than Wobbling does.

I do not think grabbing Falco out of Peach's shield pressure is nearly as hard as you make it sound. It can be used as part of the mixup, gotten from a jab reset after a missed tech (Dsmash is notoriously easy to miss techs on due to multiple hits), or even just after landing a weak turnip from not too far away. Armada had no problem getting lots of grabs on Mango, who is the best Falco.

The things I see are based off of my experience, my understanding of the game, videos I have watched, write ups about match ups I have read and things I have been told by pros. I guess everyone else has something other spiritual insight that I'm just not privy to. In what way is stating my opinion "stocking balloons for the john parade" just because it's different than yours? I focus on key points of match ups. It's not like I don't recognize how good Spacies are; I stopped maining Falcon because of it. I've only been talking about the Peach/Falco match up. I think a lot of how people respond to my posts is based on just the fact that they have this notion that I don't know what I'm talking about. Kevin came in and reinforced a lot of what I have been saying and added more to it. It's stupid that if Kevin or whoever points something out, it's legit knowledge, and if I point the same thing out, it's johns. Yay player bias.

 

[Ocean]

 

[Dr Peepee]

I gotta say honestly, after reading the whole discussion, I agree with alot of what Yay has to say.

And I love Stingers so much. The "melee mentality" thing made me giggle.

Also, Kevin didn't post all of the frame data for Falco's shield pressure. Really just start-up/cool-down frames. He forgot the shieldstun/hitlag, which makes Falco's shield pressure alot harder to deal with than what it looks like from his post.

The Shield pressure that everyone is referring to from peach is most likely Nair -> single/double jab -> Nair.....

FCNair has +4 FA on sheild. So there are 4 frames where the person sheilding can't do ANYTHING at all. Peach's fastest move(Jab) comes out in 2 frames but also gives you a negative frame advantage on block. You get -10 on block for jab1 and -11 for doing double slaps. From what I can see, that means you have a whole 1/6 of a second to do whatever you can to peach out of shield. Or just roll out so she can't catch you. Now, let's say Peach is pressuring Falco's shield with Nair->slaps. If she does the same thing repeatedly, Falco could jump out with a Nair. -11 Frame advantage for PEach + a 5 frame jump for Falco and a 4 frame nair = Falco has 3 frames of leeway to punish peach if everyone is playing frame perfect. Note that I'm saying 3 frames of leeway instead of 2 because the fastest thing she can do is shield, which is 1 frame i believe. However, jab1 is cancellable into jab2 on frames 3-25, which means she has alot of leeway as far as mixing up the timing to catch you out of a roll, jump, etc and putting on the hurt for it.

The safest(IE can't be punished) form of shield pressure that Peach has is probably FCFair -> Dsmash(FA for FCFair is like +4 or something and Dsmash has redonkulous shieldstun and pushes them too far to punish out of shield) but that **** doesn't loop at all and is easily escapable if you just lightshield and shield DI so that you get pushed too far away. PEach's FCNAir -> Jab pressure only seems good to force a reaction with so that she can punish it with something.


That being said, she definitely has a top level shield pressure game, just nowhere near the likes of Fox/FAlco, which isn't nearly as unsafe as PEach's shield pressure.

Also, yeah, PEach's Dtilt is a low mixup in her shield pressure but the startup is mad high. Why dtilt for a low instead of just Dsmashing, which hits low and does more damage. Unless you're looing for a combo out of Dtilt. LOL can't Falco just Utilt for High/low mixups while shield pressuring? Doesn't the hitbox for that start super low? If he can't, I'm sure he could Dtilt and get similiar results lol.

Super Frame Data Bros

Also, getting grabbed on FD as spacies is not outplaying them, since the point of spacies on FD is to not get grabbed. Armada outplayed Mango.

Elaborate on the part about Falco's shield pressure. I see no reason to believe that Scotu's frame data is wrong without some concrete contrary data.

And no, there is PLENTY more Peach can do besides Nair to jabs to Nair. Do people really not understand Peach's amazing shield pressure game? Wait wait wait, before that, do people not realize average human reaction time is like 10-12 frames? YOU'RE NOT GONNA BE ABLE TO REACT TO ANY OF PEACH'S PRESSURE. You're going to have to guess when to get away. That roll is what Peach can ait out and dash attack/grab! Dsmash can happen directly from a FC aerial and shield stab, so if you don't roll right away you may get shield stabbed. If you shield DI away then you could get grabbed. If you shield a jab your shield is smaller so you could get grabbed or shield stabbed even easier, and if you roll THEN I think it would be easiest to react to since jab is so quick to cancel.

I believe that Peach's shield pressure game could be on par with the spacies' but no one has been smart enough to really abuse it yet.

Lol grabbing is an easy mixup at high level play, it's gonna happen. "Don't get grabbed" is ********.

 

[Lightsyde]

And no, there is PLENTY more Peach can do besides Nair to jabs to Nair. Do people really not understand Peach's amazing shield pressure game? Wait wait wait, before that, do people not realize average human reaction time is like 10-12 frames? YOU'RE NOT GONNA BE ABLE TO REACT TO ANY OF PEACH'S PRESSURE. You're going to have to guess when to get away. That roll is what Peach can ait out and dash attack/grab! Dsmash can happen directly from a FC aerial and shield stab, so if you don't roll right away you may get shield stabbed. If you shield DI away then you could get grabbed. If you shield a jab your shield is smaller so you could get grabbed or shield stabbed even easier, and if you roll THEN I think it would be easiest to react to since jab is so quick to cancel.

I believe that Peach's shield pressure game could be on par with the spacies' but no one has been smart enough to really abuse it yet.

Lol grabbing is an easy mixup at high level play, it's gonna happen. "Don't get grabbed" is ********.

Oh my god, thank you. I had said this over and over and over.

And 100% agree about the shield pressure/human reaction time. People who love to play Super Theory Bros always forget to take that into account.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Elaborate on the part about Falco's shield pressure. I see no reason to believe that Scotu's frame data is wrong without some concrete contrary data.

And no, there is PLENTY more Peach can do besides Nair to jabs to Nair. Do people really not understand Peach's amazing shield pressure game? Wait wait wait, before that, do people not realize average human reaction time is like 10-12 frames? YOU'RE NOT GONNA BE ABLE TO REACT TO ANY OF PEACH'S PRESSURE. You're going to have to guess when to get away. That roll is what Peach can ait out and dash attack/grab! Dsmash can happen directly from a FC aerial and shield stab, so if you don't roll right away you may get shield stabbed. If you shield DI away then you could get grabbed. If you shield a jab your shield is smaller so you could get grabbed or shield stabbed even easier, and if you roll THEN I think it would be easiest to react to since jab is so quick to cancel.

I believe that Peach's shield pressure game could be on par with the spacies' but no one has been smart enough to really abuse it yet.

Lol grabbing is an easy mixup at high level play, it's gonna happen. "Don't get grabbed" is ********.

Kevin, I was just referring to the frame data. I didn't take human reaction time into account. However, buffered rolls and buffered jumps OoS(both use the cstick) could be used to negate any sort of reaction time problem).

Also, it's kind of irrelevant anyways because anytime that you're forced to sheild in this game, you're at the other player's mercy anyways.

Sheilding is a terrible thing to do in this game.

 

[Juno McGrath]

Omg something thats not spacie tech skill?

must be ****ing gay.

 

[Ocean]

Sheilding is a terrible thing to do in this game.

*looks at marth/puff matchup*

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

*looks at marth/puff matchup*

Ummm elaborate because I have no clue how that matchup goes. lol

I thought it was just marth putting up a wall of steel and jiggs trying to get in.

 

[Dr Peepee]

im not gonna get in to this whole laser thing.... i have an issue that kevin doesn't have where i don't know how to express as encompassing and yet concise enough the amount of things that are occuring/can occur in the relationship of two characters a general enough situation of peach floating and falco below the float.

i do know that you obviously want to not be under it or at the range of her falling fair as she does it (lol). i also am pretty sure that you rarely ever HAVE to be (unless ur dumb), especially since her horizontal movement is so slow.

the bottom line is that you can laser peach out of float and you can hit her out of float. these things are possible. a lot of situations in melee (those neutral ones :D) the deciding factor in who gets the hit (and thus the momentum) comes down to this small manipulation of spacing in a small window of time. i just feel like since falco is faster and remains safe with lasers, he's never being as risky as peach when he's on defense or offense. the peach really has to be the predictor to win. she probably ****s falco up more off one instance, but i think that's in balance as well, since i believe falco is more easily able to get hits in and remain safe while doing so. PP, enlighten me.


@the match up in general: i think with the stage list, falco wins.


a message to falcos: 1. i don't like any of u. get on my level of sexiness f@gs. 2. FH more. u have like, the highest jump and 2nd fastest fall speed. FH *****. just saiyan..

Ehhh, that long paragraph is what I like to think about. I would have actually gotten to that point in the discussion if we ever got past the fact that floating stopped lasering and gave Peach a pretty good position.

It's a weird, tricky business between approaches from the two characters. Peach can Fair down, and that height makes SHL'ing and Nair'ing super risky because Peach's Fair hits above Falco/on his head where both of those options don't exist. So then, Bair and Utilt become the primary means to stuff Fair and Nair approaches. Well, those responses can be baited to an extent(Peach can overspace those moves and Falco can commit and then Peach can land and pressure Falco) because Falco can't really maneuver in close to Peach quickly to hit her with them(he has to hope she comes into him, which will be ever-rarer once Peach's learn the spacing). However, if Peach overspaces then Falco could just laser where she's going to land and pressure her, but if Peach gets into her shield in time then we get back to the "Peach's shield being amazing with **** OOS options" thing that further complicates the scenario, not to mention a recent usage/metagame development of quick shielding to aerial/move OOS(in this case, holding shield after a whiff momentarily to FH Nair OOS to stuff aerial approaches from Falco).

^and that's all assuming Peach doesn't throw a turnip first, which also hits in that area Falco doesn't have much of an answer for. Turnips can also cut off jumps, which beats out Falco's new answer to floating: going high up for platform camping/aerial DI Bair/Dair mixups. Plus, turnips can wear down a shield so that Dsmashes shield stab easier.

Now then, what I'm really trying to get to here is what Peach ends up forcing Falco to do that no other character can do. She forces him to either: forfeit all stage control horizontally(gives Peach the middle) OR vertically(gives Peach the bottom). Falco, being as slow as he is horizontally, is not well-suited for such situations, and once Peach gets him into those areas his lasers are rarely effective. Think about it: the point of a projectile is to force a response/aid in your approach/rack damage. Falco's lasers got his response: peach floated, so now what does he do? He can't use them to control her or approach anymore, so he has to rely on his slower ground/aerial speed to hit her. Yes, he can wait and try to beat her out/hit her as she falls, but Peach can FC backwards instead and make sure Falco doesn't get any freebees like that(I'm not saying one strategy beats another, but I am saying Peach has an answer to being shot out of her float).

PS: Peach can cover platform camping options well with turnips(especially on non-DL/KJ 64? stages).