The North Carolina Melee Power Rankings! Updated 8/14/14!

[stingers]

....

Yes, you are, in fact, not right about the SHL height. That is precisely what we've been saying.

EDIT: And while I understand your frame data, my experience runs 100% contrary to what you're saying. I got A LOT of compliments on my shield pressure at Apex and Aasem UpB's out of it reliably if I ever try to pillar on his shield. I'm telling you that it DOES NOT work.

well can u point out an error in the frame data then otherwise its u thats just not doing it right. if theres an error then alright i'm wrong, but I backed up my statements so unless u have some sort of proof it's wrong then it doesnt really matter what kinds of compliments u got for ur shield pressure >.>

 

[Dr Peepee]

this height?

how can you NOT jump and dair? i dont get it

You can't FH FF Dair. Peach could move back/get to the ground and **** you for trying that kinda stuff.

What are suggesting Falco do? Rising Dair? I hope not.

Edit: fine I'll go get it.

 

[Ocean]

omfg super theory bros again

gg u cant beat frame data support =/

yes you can.

no player is technically sound enough to NEVER make an error. frame data has its place in arguments, but it is not a trump all card.

 

[stingers]

lol duh ocean. theo is just being smart.

whats wrong with rising dair? i dont see it tbqh. explain it to me so I can be wrong and go back to my scrub game

 

[Lightsyde]

Picture

how can you NOT jump and dair? i dont get it

*facepalm*

Think about the trajectories!

SH aerials come in too low to reach her, plain and simple.

A full hop aerial requires Falco to run in (with his SLOW HORIZONTAL RUN SPEED) and then jump (which can be easily reacted to/punsished). He CANNOT hit that spot with any kind of efficiency and it's SUPER obvious when he is trying to. FH Dair will get you ***** by Fairs before you ever even get off the ground, I promise.

 

[Dr Peepee]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=109595

early Dair: 5 frames before the move hits(time for up-B) and 13 frames before he hits the ground(time for Nair OOS for sure).

late Dair: in between shine and Dair=SEVENTEEN FRAMES to hit him......
only 2 punishable frames after landing though, but you know when to strike.

ideal Dair: FOURTEEN FRAMES after shine to hit him....
4 after Dair connects(barely enough for up-B, so that'd be kinda hard), but you know when to strike.

 

[Dark Hart]

Yea, when a Peach hits that perfect height, it's pretty much impossible to hit her.

 

[Dr Peepee]

lol duh ocean. theo is just being smart.

whats wrong with rising dair? i dont see it tbqh. explain it to me so I can be wrong and go back to my scrub game

That laser won't stop Peach from falling in on Falco, and if he FHs then Peach can see it and land in time to **** whatever Falco does(shield if he comes in front, Nair if he falls on her, Dsmash if he whiffs, and grab/dash attack if he just falls I guess).

Rising Dair doesn't work because Falco has to run/laser towards Peach to do that. Those options are far too slow(and therefore easy) for Peach to react to and punish. Falco lasers in, then Peach Fairs him(hits Falco right on the head where his laser won't protect him), Falco runs in, and Peach can space a move/Fair on his head anyway lol(Falco can't laser in time then cuz he'll just run into the Fair, and he can't Nair cuz it's below him and he'll run into the Fair, and that definitely leaves Dair out of the picture since it's even more below him).

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

alright wow. Josh, you don't HAVE to approach Peach when she's sitting at SSJ Float Height. Just don't do anything. She is still slow as **** and cannot hit you with anything before you can react to it and punish it She has to come down eventually and that's when you can attack her. Second, if you're pressuring a shield, it doesn't matter how GOOD you do it, there are always windows where the peach player can react to it and hit you with an up B or nair out of shield, It doesn't matter how good you do it, period. Falco's sheild pressure is actually WORSE than Fox's according to frame data and even Fox's pressure can be beaten by perfectly timed stuff, or at least tied with by Peach's nair. Just watch Mango vs Armada friendlies. Shield pressure isn't as broken as it seems and it's just a way to make someone do something punishable. You aren't actually supposed to try and break their shield with it lol

gonna edit in a second when I read more

 

[Dr Peepee]

Lol Yay I don't think Josh was arguing any of that, but I might be wrong as I've been furiously skimming.

 

[stingers]

okay I just watched this match

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiztB2plM7o

and when armada was at "optimal float height" and waiting, mango would always just stay out of falling fair range and laser to hit armada when he fell, and one time he RAN FORWARD and FH baired through (and it hit him) (oh god thats impossible armada must have sneezed or something).
when armada was at "optimal float height" and approaching, he would just hide behind a platform (like I said, just run away or some ****, cuz thats a different situation entirely).

but really he hardly even floats at that height because the options for dealing with it are so trivial. maybe a match on fd would be totally different.

 

[Lightsyde]

alright wow. Josh, you don't HAVE to approach Peach when she's sitting at SSJ Float Height. Just don't do anything. She is still slow as **** and cannot hit you with anything before you can react to it and punish it She has to come down eventually and that's when you can attack her. Second, if you're pressuring a shield, it doesn't matter how GOOD you do it, there are always windows where the peach player can react to it and hit you with an up B or nair out of shield, It doesn't matter how good you do it, period. Falco's sheild pressure is actually WORSE than Fox's according to frame data and even Fox's pressure can be beaten by perfectly timed stuff, or at least tied with by Peach's nair. Just watch Mango vs Armada friendlies. Shield pressure isn't as broken as it seems and it's just a way to make someone do something punishable. You aren't actually supposed to try and break their shield with it lol

gonna edit in a second when I read more

I never said that you did, what the hell? I wait for Aasem to drop most of the time before I do anything. I was just saying how aggravating that float height was and how well it neutralizes a lot of Falco's approach.

And yes, that's exactly what I was trying to say about the shield pressure. In one of my first posts tonight I said something along the lines of "I don't even bother with pillaring Aasem's shield anymore, I just go straight for the shine grab."

Edit:

Lol Yay I don't think Josh was arguing any of that, but I might be wrong as I've been furiously skimming.

Yeah this.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Peach's Dtilt is so bull****. It's easier to land than a stomp (wd back -> dtilt or as a shield poke after Peach's broken shield pressure derpderpderp) and has as much as if not more hitstun. So dumb.

If you keep getting WD back dtilted, just overshoot your aerial and smack her where she will be when she WD's back. If she DOESN'T WD back, she STILL will get hit by your aerial and you'll end up way behind her and can just utilt or run away or whatever your heart desires

And Peach's shield pressure is not even pressure at all. I will give you the frames and then we can all see why it's easy to escape what she will do after a FC nair.

FC nair has +4 frame on block if you shield it. Peach's jab comes out in 2 frames. Okay, you're locked in your shield at this point and cannot do anything to her. So what? Keep shielding. So, After she jab your shield, she cannot grab you before you have time to roll or aerial her back. If she dsmashes, just roll away from it or shield DI out of the range of the attack. If she FC nairs your shield, it's still +4 on block and her grab comes out in 7 or 8 frames, can't remember, so if you don't see her start the jab up, just roll so you can avoid the grab or the dsmash. I forget how fast dsmash starts up, but you can simply roll away from her after she doesn't nair you and be safe. Basically, what I'm saying here is that you should hardly ever get stuck in your shield until you get poked by one of her ******** shield mixups.

 

[stingers]

aight so I went to watch one on fd
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7bE9ll9Xg4

literally 7 seconds in, armadas at that height floating and mango runs forward, jumps, double jumps, and dairs. oh god armada is a scrub.

 

[Dr Peepee]

okay I just watched this match

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiztB2plM7o

and when armada was at "optimal float height" and waiting, mango would always just stay out of falling fair range and laser to hit armada when he fell, and one time he RAN FORWARD and FH baired through (and it hit him) (oh god thats impossible armada must have sneezed or something).
when armada was at "optimal float height" and approaching, he would just hide behind a platform (like I said, just run away or some ****, cuz thats a different situation entirely).

Yeah, you're supposed to shoot Peach out of that float, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can get a guaranteed follow up with it. I'll watch the match myself later to help with that explanation.

That FH Bair is the product of Mango knowing exactly how Armada would move and just caught him offguard. That's a terrible approach strategy lmao but Mango ***** so yeah.

And Mango loses stage control when he hides there so Armada can fall and pressure him well then(not necessarily with a Fair....he can land outside of follow up range and maintain control).

 

[Ocean]

using mango as a example isn't really the best thing to do.

really, the guy gets away with a lot of things just because hes mango. jwong effect too good.

 

[stingers]

Yeah, you're supposed to shoot Peach out of that float, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can get a guaranteed follow up with it. I'll watch the match myself later to help with that explanation.

That FH Bair is the product of Mango knowing exactly how Armada would move and just caught him offguard. That's a terrible approach strategy lmao but Mango ***** so yeah.

And Mango loses stage control when he hides there so Armada can fall and pressure him well then(not necessarily with a Fair....he can land outside of follow up range and maintain control).

wait what does it matter if it has a guaranteed follow up or not? geez thats melee mentality if i've ever seen it

yea okay peachs float can control space as can falcos lasers. alright I agree. that doesn't mean that peachs float is some unbeatable, unhittable, mk shuttle loop mess like josh is making it out to be lol

 

[Lightsyde]

If you keep getting WD back dtilted, just overshoot your aerial and smack her where she will be when she WD's back. If she DOESN'T WD back, she STILL will get hit by your aerial and you'll end up way behind her and can just utilt or run away or whatever your heart desires

And Peach's shield pressure is not even pressure at all. I will give you the frames and then we can all see why it's easy to escape what she will do after a FC nair.

FC nair has +4 frame on block if you shield it. Peach's jab comes out in 2 frames. Okay, you're locked in your shield at this point and cannot do anything to her. So what? Keep shielding. So, After she jab your shield, she cannot grab you before you have time to roll or aerial her back. If she dsmashes, just roll away from it or shield DI out of the range of the attack. If she FC nairs your shield, it's still +4 on block and her grab comes out in 7 or 8 frames, can't remember, so if you don't see her start the jab up, just roll so you can avoid the grab or the dsmash. I forget how fast dsmash starts up, but you can simply roll away from her after she doesn't nair you and be safe. Basically, what I'm saying here is that you should hardly ever get stuck in your shield until you get poked by one of her ******** shield mixups.

Yeah, I'm aware that you can roll. But all I had said in my original post was how much I disliked Peach's Dtilt. People complain all the time about how broken Falco's shield pressure is because they can only roll to get out of it (which isn't true if you're Fox/Falco/Peach etc), whereas Peach's shield pressure is actually better all around and the Dtilt provides a high/low poke if your shield is already worn down from anything else.

 

[Dr Peepee]

If you keep getting WD back dtilted, just overshoot your aerial and smack her where she will be when she WD's back. If she DOESN'T WD back, she STILL will get hit by your aerial and you'll end up way behind her and can just utilt or run away or whatever your heart desires

And Peach's shield pressure is not even pressure at all. I will give you the frames and then we can all see why it's easy to escape what she will do after a FC nair.

FC nair has +4 frame on block if you shield it. Peach's jab comes out in 2 frames. Okay, you're locked in your shield at this point and cannot do anything to her. So what? Keep shielding. So, After she jab your shield, she cannot grab you before you have time to roll or aerial her back. If she dsmashes, just roll away from it or shield DI out of the range of the attack. If she FC nairs your shield, it's still +4 on block and her grab comes out in 7 or 8 frames, can't remember, so if you don't see her start the jab up, just roll so you can avoid the grab or the dsmash. I forget how fast dsmash starts up, but you can simply roll away from her after she doesn't nair you and be safe. Basically, what I'm saying here is that you should hardly ever get stuck in your shield until you get poked by one of her ******** shield mixups.

Keep shielding? Not always the best advice vs Peach. Peach is one of the few characters in Melee that has totally safe on shield pressure like this. She could just Fair/Nair grab instead of jab/Dsmash. She could jab to grab(which you could try to roll away from, but what if Peach jabs to wait and then reacts?). If she Dsmashes, sometimes you can't get that roll off right away or you get shield stabbed regardless(it happens).

What I'M saying here is that none of this can be reacted to and if Peach is smart then she'll punish your rolls and work that strong pressure game she has to her advantage. There is no easy way to react to her and you have to learn each particular Peach's shield pressure habits to be successful at escape.

 

[Dr Peepee]

wait what does it matter if it has a guaranteed follow up or not? geez thats melee mentality if i've ever seen it

yea okay peachs float can control space as can falcos lasers. alright I agree. that doesn't mean that peachs float is some unbeatable, unhittable, mk shuttle loop mess like josh is making it out to be lol

Well what good is being lasered out of a float then? woohoo 2%

Peach's float does almost always nullify Falco's approach/pressure game and allows her to take control of the fight when used intelligently though, which is something no other character does without the aide of PS typically.

 

[Lightsyde]

aight so I went to watch one on fd
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7bE9ll9Xg4

literally 7 seconds in, armadas at that height floating and mango runs forward, jumps, double jumps, and dairs. oh god armada is a scrub.

You'll also notice that Armada misreads what Mango is doing and FF's a Fair before Mango's Dair comes down. That is Armada's mistake

EDIT: And yes, "Keep on shielding" is flat out bad advice vs Peach. My success rate vs Aasem is completely dependent on how much time I spend moving around him vs standing in my shield. Like Kevin said, Peach has totally safe shield pressure and she has an easy time punishing rolls.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Keep shielding? Not always the best advice vs Peach. Peach is one of the few characters in Melee that has totally safe on shield pressure like this. She could just Fair/Nair grab instead of jab/Dsmash. She could jab to grab(which you could try to roll away from, but what if Peach jabs to wait and then reacts?). If she Dsmashes, sometimes you can't get that roll off right away or you get shield stabbed regardless(it happens).

What I'M saying here is that none of this can be reacted to and if Peach is smart then she'll punish your rolls and work that strong pressure game she has to her advantage. There is no easy way to react to her and you have to learn each particular Peach's shield pressure habits to be successful at escape.

Well I guess my reaction time must be boss status because I can easily see if she will jab me or try and grab and just roll away from it. Some of Falco's crap is safe on block too Mr. Nanney Either way, it's not godawful and superbroke and she's just a good character with good options. I'm pretty tired of hearing people john about Peach. Just because it's not cruise control doesn't mean she's a counter.

 

[stingers]

You'll also notice that Armada misreads what Mango is doing and FF's a Fair before Mango's Dair comes down. That is Armada's mistake.

if you'll watch the rest of the match, mango typically fhs over the float at that height then comes in from behind and bairs. the rising height is just too fast, like I said, to react to. you'd have to be a master at prediction to do that. armada is used to people cowering in fear of the float like pp is suggesting so he just falls in with fairs on instinct. mango, always ahead of the game, is intelligently beating that. props to mango

Well what good is being lasered out of a float then? woohoo 2%

Peach's float does almost always nullify Falco's approach/pressure game and allows her to take control of the fight when used intelligently though, which is something no other character does without the aide of PS typically.

woohoo you didnt get hit. lol seriously, melee mentality is terrible.

it almost sounds like you're johning about peach now. oh no, falco can't play the MU the same as the fox/shiek/marth MU =[ a character with all of those options having to use slightly different ones? sigh

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well I guess my reaction time must be boss status because I can easily see if she will jab me or try and grab and just roll away from it. Some of Falco's crap is safe on block too Mr. Nanney Either way, it's not godawful and superbroke and she's just a good character with good options. I'm pretty tired of hearing people john about Peach. Just because it's not cruise control doesn't mean she's a counter.

I think your reaction time is fairly above average? But even so I'd be hard pressed to believe you didn't just try to roll away anyway and just kind of knew Peach wasn't going to react to your roll because no Peaches ever friggin do that for some unknown reason.

Lmao get @ my frame data I posted about Falco. People give that character TOO MUCH CREDIT WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

I don't think anyone besides Josh complains about Peach? I'm not johnning about her so much as showing you people why Falco isn't broken and Peach is good.

I also said I don't know what to think of the matchup yet.


Edit: well stongers, if that's what you're interpreting my argument as, then I'm sorry.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

I think your reaction time is fairly above average? But even so I'd be hard pressed to believe you didn't just try to roll away anyway and just kind of knew Peach wasn't going to react to your roll because no Peaches ever friggin do that for some unknown reason.

Lmao get @ my frame data I posted about Falco. People give that character TOO MUCH CREDIT WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

I don't think anyone besides Josh complains about Peach? I'm not johnning about her so much as showing you people why Falco isn't broken and Peach is good.

I also said I don't know what to think of the matchup yet.

dud falco ***** everyone and is the #1 char is da game and should have cruise control matchups ok god

**** falco

**** craig

shut up theo

 

[Dr Peepee]

dud falco ***** everyone and is the #1 char is da game and should have cruise control matchups ok god

**** falco

**** craig

shut up theo

Lol you know that's not what I'm saying. =p

I don't agree with the majority of that anyway lmao.

<3

 

[Lightsyde]

Peach's float does almost always nullify Falco's approach/pressure game and allows her to take control of the fight when used intelligently though, which is something no other character does without the aide of PS typically.

Quoting this because I've been saying this for weeks and no one will listen to me.

EDIT: Alex, I'll watch that match now and get back to you in a second.

 

[stingers]

josh, that quote is just one big, honest john. >.> thats not something you should support

 

[Dr Peepee]

LMAO you think it's a john? Tell me how Falco approaches or pressures a Peach when she floats above his lasers then?

 

[stingers]

isnt that what this whole argument has been about kevin

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

LMAO you think it's a john? Tell me how Falco approaches or pressures a Peach when she floats above his lasers then?

pick fox, duh

 

[Lightsyde]

josh, that quote is just one big, honest john. >.> thats not something you should support

That quote is a statement about the match up, which after having played hours and hours vs the only really high level Peach in the state (and the only one who plays the match up correctly), I support wholeheartedly.

Also, I didn't see much evidence in that match to support your argument at all. It looked like the float very effectively kept Mango from approaching/gettiing any advantage from lasers.

However, the match up did feature Mango thoroughly outplaying Armada and still losing because he got chain grabbed EVERY STOCK but yeah, that's not inescapable or bull**** at all. Alex playing that Super See What You Wanna See Bros.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

he obviously didn't outplay him if he got grabbed dawg.

 

[stingers]

Also, I didn't see much evidence in that match to support your argument at all. It looked like the float very effectively kept Mango from approaching/gettiing any advantage from lasers.

>.>

are you talking about the fd match? cuz thats just one big lie. mango only ever got hit because he approached armadas shield inneffectively and armada punished it. oftentimes with a chaingrab. fd2good

 

[Dr Peepee]

isnt that what this whole argument has been about kevin

Yes, but you have yet to provide reasoning/evidence to the contrary of what I've said. I've refuted all of your points and you have resorted to calling my opinion on how the matchup works a john. Prove me wrong or agree to disagree or admit you were wrong(or do what Yay does: post and then opt of discussion because it's work or something lol). Those are your options in matchup debate.

Now if you think this entire argument is me johnning, then I'll go ahead and end it now and agree to disagree with you because I find that idea insulting and ridiculous when I know I should have lost to Armada(I assume this is what you're referring to?) based on my extent of the matchup knowledge then.

Edit: I thought grabs happened a lot at a higher level.....guess I was wrong.

 

[stingers]

Yes, but you have yet to provide reasoning/evidence to the contrary of what I've said. I've refuted all of your points and you have resorted to calling my opinion on how the matchup works a john. Prove me wrong or agree to disagree or admit you were wrong(or do what Yay does: post and then opt of discussion because it's work or something lol). Those are your options in matchup debate.

Now if you think this entire argument is me johnning, then I'll go ahead and end it now and agree to disagree with you because I find that idea insulting and ridiculous when I know I should have lost to Armada(I assume this is what you're referring to?) based on my extent of the matchup knowledge then.

i responded to you with various segments of matches of the best falco and the best peach playing against each other and mango punishing the float effectively. i don't know what else you want from me.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

I'm just too lazy to keep responding to you FALCO MAINS is all. all you ngrs do is laser. And get dsmashed by peach. pick fox

 

[Dr Peepee]

i responded to you with various segments of matches of the best falco and the best peach playing against each other and mango punishing the float effectively. i don't know what else you want from me.

Alright, I can do this bit by bit if that's what it'll take:

0:15- floated and there was no aerial to hit peach with/falco shielded and then Peach waited because Falco shielded and knew he had no options and then hit him anyway when he tried to move away.

0:17- LOOK, Mango had to double jump to avoid that float and then he fell down on Armada with a Dair. Pretty sure Armada could have taken the Dair and then Dsmashed if he stayed floating or just moved out of the way and Dsmashed.

0:24- armada floats and cuts off mango's options AGAIN, this time landing jabs after he lands to beat out any approach Mango tries and forces a roll. Had Armada not shielded like a doofus he could have gotten an easy grab.

0:33- Mango barely gets the Dair off because he knows how close that Fair was to hitting him. That trade isn't worth it and Falco knows it.

1:14- notice how Mango doesn't even go by the edge when Armada is floating offstage. He can't cover the options.

1:45: Yeah Mango had momentum and was right under Armada when he did that. I guess if you start your float over Falcos all of the time then watch out for Bairs?

 

[stingers]

umm what match is that? :15 in dreamland, mango does his double jump/falls with a dair when peach is floating, and :15 fd, mango is getting cged.

 

[Dark Hart]

don't fox's laser and get dsmashed by peach too??