The North Carolina Melee Power Rankings! Updated 8/14/14!

[stingers]

Alright then, I'm going to start adding in color to my responses like you to make you feel really stupid since that's apparently how you argue now.

I shouldn't have humored your video response for several reasons. The most readily obvious reason being that you have absolutely no theory/concepts that the video is supporting. You're just saying "yeah you're wrong cuz mango beats armada lol good stuff Kevin wow melee players." If you had said something like "this match shows that floating is not some all-powerful technique because you see Armada rarely taking full control of the match with it and here are some instances when this is true" then that works a little better but it still doesn't actually make up for your lack of theory(which was totally refuted, but you decided to go to videos anyway).

If you actually wanted to prove(what did you want to prove again? I don't think you had an argument besides "I'm going to say floating a lot and make it out to look like kevin is dumb") something, you first have to have some theoretical foundation of your argument(either strategy-based or character attribute-based) and THEN, once you have argued to a certain point, you can tentatively include matches in your discussion.

Even at this point, it's still weak to just include ONE particular match of ONE set between TWO people. That's extremely limiting data all around and isn't much to prove your argument of(what was that again? floating not being broken or something?) floating not being broken or something.


You're also viewing this match from a really basic perspective. What is Mango doing to stop Armada from floating(hint: he's going high, which is what Peach likes)? You ever figure out why Mango only tried to shoot lasers a few times that match(hint: BECAUSE HE WILL LOSE OUT IF HE MESSES AROUND ON THE GROUND)? Do you even know what his counter strategy was, and why it's beneficial to Armada/Peach(Hint: platform camping/FH or DJ aerial DI Dair mixups)? All of that coming from the base fact that Falco cannot directly challenge Peach's floating. That is fact.

alright internet time

first of all, you just assume I don't know what I'm talking about, I guess because you're better than me and that gives you leeway. Good **** kevin, really mature of you there.

You claim that I lack the theory to support my argument, but that just puts this into Super Theory Bros territory which is what I've been trying to avoid. (Though the shield pressure bit, I'll admit, was basically all theory, but I don't know how else to argue something like shield pressure besides with frame data). I wanted to prove, in 2 separate matches of the best Falco and the best Peach going at it in GFs of a large tournament (aka, they're both trying), that Peach's floating at laser height is not unbeatable. That's it. And I feel like I did, when I showed various instances of Mango countering it. But then you claim that it doesn't count or some **** because I don't have videos of lesser players doing the same thing? I mean if it's that important I guess I can look across the internet to find various instances of other falcos doing it but I don't really think it carries the same weight to it.

Mango not shooting lasers on the ground because float beats SH lasers is obvious, wow. It'd take an idiot to argue that, I don't know why you're bringing things up that I'm not even talking about, I guess just so that it can look like you're saying smart things? Well **** Kevin, don't even get me started on something entirely unrelated like how Peach's turnips offer a valuable way to assist in her approaches and control space, because it's just too true for you to handle.

What I was saying was that it's NOT a fact that "Falco cannot directly challenge Peach's floating". That's just one of your johns.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Kevin, I was just referring to the frame data. I didn't take human reaction time into account. However, buffered rolls and buffered jumps OoS(both use the cstick) could be used to negate any sort of reaction time problem).

Also, it's kind of irrelevant anyways because anytime that you're forced to sheild in this game, you're at the other player's mercy anyways.

Sheilding is a terrible thing to do in this game.

That's not the point. I'm well aware you don't have stun long enough to be pressured and unable to move if you shield, but I am saying that there is no way to know if a jab/grab/dsmash/wait for roll is coming because you cannot humanly react to that pressure and it is safe.

Shielding is actually really good in Melee. Very few things are safe on shield and shield grabbing(among other OOS tactics) is amazing because it works at silly times.

Shielding is basically someone being stuck in one place, but I think shielding can be used as a bait with all of your basic options being applicable OOS. I just think shielding is a terrible idea vs Peach moreso than any other character in the game. Doesn't make her broken or top tier or anything, but it does make her good in a unique way that I don't believe anyone has fully exploited yet.

 

[Ocean]

Ummm elaborate because I have no clue how that matchup goes. lol

shielding is really helpful as puff against marth. you can approach with a aerial, land in shield, and bait the marth into forwardsmashing for fairing your shield. unless its a well spaced tipper, you can fair/bair them oos, or wdoos into a forward smash, etc. its one of the best ways to get inside of marth as puff. pretty much, shield is your best friend against marth.

(I explained this poorly and without much detail, but hopefully it still gets the point across.)

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

That's not the point. I'm well aware you don't have stun long enough to be pressured and unable to move if you shield, but I am saying that there is no way to know if a jab/grab/dsmash/wait for roll is coming because you cannot humanly react to that pressure and it is safe.

Shielding is actually really good in Melee. Very few things are safe on shield and shield grabbing(among other OOS tactics) is amazing because it works at silly times.

Shielding is basically someone being stuck in one place, but I think shielding can be used as a bait with all of your basic options being applicable OOS. I just think shielding is a terrible idea vs Peach moreso than any other character in the game. Doesn't make her broken or top tier or anything, but it does make her good in a unique way that I don't believe anyone has fully exploited yet.

I've honestly never felt like shieldgrabbing should work. Maybe its because I play a char with terrible grab range and low traction but it always felt hokey to me. Not to mention I've seen too many matches where someone will bait a shieldgrab and get fsmashed or something for it.

Hell, it happened twice in the mango vs armada match that Alex posted, i think.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

shielding is really helpful as puff against marth. you can approach with a aerial, land in shield, and bait the marth into forwardsmashing for fairing your shield. unless its a well spaced tipper, you can fair/bair them oos, or wdoos into a forward smash, etc. its one of the best ways to get inside of marth as puff. pretty much, shield is your best friend against marth.

(I explained this poorly and without much detail, but hopefully it still gets the point across.)

FFFFFFFFFFF

Why is it that the world feels like smart marths are gonna fsmash a grounded opponent?

Why is it the 90% of marths feel like it's a good idea to fsmash a grounded opponent?

whywhywhywhy

It's so dumb.

 

[Dr Peepee]

alright internet time

first of all, you just assume I don't know what I'm talking about, I guess because you're better than me and that gives you leeway. Good **** kevin, really mature of you there.

You claim that I lack the theory to support my argument, but that just puts this into Super Theory Bros territory which is what I've been trying to avoid. (Though the shield pressure bit, I'll admit, was basically all theory, but I don't know how else to argue something like shield pressure besides with frame data). I wanted to prove, in 2 separate matches of the best Falco and the best Peach going at it in GFs of a large tournament (aka, they're both trying), that Peach's floating at laser height is not unbeatable. That's it. And I feel like I did, when I showed various instances of Mango countering it. But then you claim that it doesn't count or some **** because I don't have videos of lesser players doing the same thing? I mean if it's that important I guess I can look across the internet to find various instances of other falcos doing it but I don't really think it carries the same weight to it.

Mango not shooting lasers on the ground because float beats SH lasers is obvious, wow. It'd take an idiot to argue that, I don't know why you're bringing things up that I'm not even talking about, I guess just so that it can look like you're saying smart things? Well **** Kevin, don't even get me started on something entirely unrelated like how Peach's turnips offer a valuable way to assist in her approaches and control space, because it's just too true for you to handle.

What I was saying was that it's NOT a fact that "Falco cannot directly challenge Peach's floating". That's just one of your johns.

Stop calling me out on "melee mentality" and all of that other personal BS and I won't start saying you don't know what you're talking about. I never once said it was necessary for Falco to follow up on a laser out of Peach's FC aerial, but the risk vs reward of landing that laser isn't worth even attempting it sometimes.

Theory is fine if you know how to use it correctly(which most people don't). You look at:

-basic character attributes(Falco's Nair vs Peach's Nair- who wins? that kinda stuff)
-metagame/strategy(What are common, effective counters to this particular difficult situation?)
-personal experience(last resort typically)

You need to develop a more coherent argument in support of floating not being broken(which I wasn't even arguing) or whatever before you can move on to actual matches, because stuff like that is supposed to reinforce your points, not be the basis of them. If that doesn't make sense then I'm afraid we'll never see eye-to-eye in any discussion.

The metagame could have changed since a year and some change ago so it's important to find more modern examples of what Falco does about Peach's floating as well.

That last paragraph is what you said the argument was about, don't get upset with me about that. It's what you were using the videos to support, unless you were just extremely unclear in conveying that.

I don't really think Peach is broken or floating is totally invincible or whatever you probably think I'm supporting, but if you're that upset that someone is trying to say your character is legit then I guess I'll back off of the discussion with you. Agree to disagree?

 

[bossa nova ♪]

@josh and/or god: lol wow it really is pointless isn't it......


@Kevin: ima get back to u when im not busy

 

[Dr Peepee]

I've honestly never felt like shieldgrabbing should work. Maybe its because I play a char with terrible grab range and low traction but it always felt hokey to me. Not to mention I've seen too many matches where someone will bait a shieldgrab and get fsmashed or something for it.

Hell, it happened twice in the mango vs armada match that Alex posted, i think.

Having a great/large shield means aerials hit much sooner before the spacie hits the ground, making the timing that much more strict. Moving around and making the spacie have to adjust its L-cancel timing means aerial'ing is harder to do effectively. Finally, shield DI can push characters away from the shine follow up and allow for a grab as well.





Edit: aight Cam that's cool.

 

[Lightsyde]

For the record, I have never said that Peach was broken.

I think her recovery is unbelievably good, her OOS options are unreal, her shield pressure is top tier, Dsmash itself is TOO good and floating neutralizes the **** out of Falco's laser game. That is all.

EDIT: Cam, I don't really understand what you're trying to accomplish. I explained my argument thoroughly and you clearly disagree, but offered no counter argument, only a snarky comment made as if your outlook is any more legitimate than mine, which I have no reason to believe that it is.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Oh, well that explains alot since my two mains have small-ish shields.


*referring to KEvin's shield post*

 

[Dr Peepee]

Oh, well that explains alot since my two mains have small-ish sheilds.

Do you use the one light shield one hard shield trick? That'll get you shield grabs too since it makes timing Dais very silly haha.

 

[Shady Penguin]

Haha, you guys play a game where shields suck.

Brawl is so much bett- *Gets nadoed through his shield*

 

[Ocean]

I love you shady.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Do you use the one light shield one hard shield trick? That'll get you shield grabs too since it makes timing Dais very silly haha.

Occasionally. I've actually more or less tried stopping with shield grabs and doing aerials OoS with IC. Not too good of an idea though.

My powershielding is getting really good though.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Haha, you guys play a game where shields suck.

Brawl is so much bett- *Gets nadoed through his shield*

Ummmmm 64 is the only game where shielding is the worst thing you can possibly do.

 

[stingers]

Agree to disagree?

Works for me.

 

[TheLastCacely]

Ummmmm 64 is the only game where shielding is the worst thing you can possibly do.

pretty sure it's bad in melee as well.


edit: unless ur are armada... he cheats.

 

[Ocean]

shielding doesn't suck.

its not always a good option, but its not always a bad one.

 

[bossa nova ♪]

loll snarky.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

So yeah, guys.

I'm pretty glad that we had this discussion.

<3

 

[AlcyoNite]

good argument guys.
now back to pp ****** people's **** across the world and stingers, well, watching pp **** people's **** across the world

 

[bossa nova ♪]

yo theo come play me.


not today or this week or anything but soon.

 

[AlcyoNite]

well idk when that is but sure.....ill get on that

edit: if u came over here, itd be easier all around and the tv wouldnt lag

 

[bossa nova ♪]

friday, it's a date.


and im the girl so ur buying me dinner.

 

[AlcyoNite]

friday, it's a date.


and im the girl so ur buying me dinner.

didnt u just say not this week?

ill pay for half of ur dinner

 

[stingers]

wow theo what is ur problem...i have like literally never even talked to you before, why u gotta be such a ****? you're like 5 years older then me, chill out.

 

[bossa nova ♪]

theo **** u and ur bull****

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

So yeah, next topic of discussion.

Falcon/Marth = 50/50

Gogogogogogogogogo

 

[Shady Penguin]

So yeah, next topic of discussion.

Falcon/Marth = 50/50

Gogogogogogogogogo

 

[AlcyoNite]

wow theo what is ur problem...i have like literally never even talked to you before, why u gotta be such a ****? you're like 5 years older then me, chill out.

it was my reflection on what to take from the 4 trillion page argument.

mostly, i hate agree to disagree even tho its usually the best course of action after an argument isnt settled. actually, we did talk when u came to a duke last year and i put my melee in ur wii and i have no idea where it is now

not a stab at u, just using the opportunity to mention to all of nc that someone has my melee and i still want it back.

Oh, and I am chill. prolly the chillest person ever. and i also love you. with all of my heart - my cold, sheik-maining heart.

Edit:

theo **** u and ur bull****

so u dont want me to pay for ur dinner?

 

[Dark Hart]

Well, I think it's 55/45 for Marth... mostly just range reasons, It's not an easy match-up by any means, but still marths favor imo

 

[AlcyoNite]

Well, I think it's 55/45 for Marth... mostly just range reasons, It's not an easy match-up by any means, but still marths favor imo

Actually, you are completely incorrect.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

shut da hell up theo.

ya'll **** wanna make me quit this game. just ****in play it.

ryan, cam, and dop are like the only reasons i still have an interest in getting better.

**** *****es.

 

[TheLastCacely]

wow theo, way to be a cocky ****** *** piece of ****. next time i see ur half spick half *** *** im going to beat the living **** out of u, u ****in ****.

 

[Ocean]

wow theo, way to be a cocky ****** *** piece of ****. next time i see ur half spick half *** *** im going to beat the living **** out of u, u ****in ****.

actually, you are completely incorrect.

 

[Diatenshi]

Well, I think it's 55/45 for Marth... mostly just range reasons, It's not an easy match-up by any means, but still marths favor imo

the matchups in marths favor but i feel that its "easier to play falcon" in this matchup

i.e. you can just DD camp the whole stage, get 1 grab, and **** marth up, sort of how sheik can vs marth, just trade her needles for the best DD in the game

marth has less options off a grab, but he can Dthrow techchase the wholeee stage, then upthrow fsmash round 60% (it works, ****in do it)

 

[Dark Hart]

Actually, you are completely incorrect.

A Darksyde mentality if I ever heard one.

edit: you actually believe that?

 

[TheLastCacely]

DarkScar...

Together their powers will bring down the tyranny that is jiggs.

 

[bossa nova ♪]

ryan, cam, and dop are like the only reasons i still have an interest in getting better.

ugh.... dont say that u make me wanna stay

 

[AlcyoNite]

man yall *****s get trolled harder than a bridge