The North Carolina Melee Power Rankings! Updated 8/14/14!

[Lightsyde]

Why do Fox boards seem like they'd be closer to reading tabloids? lmao

NEWS FLASH: FOX'S DAIR NOW SHIELD GRABBABLE!

Spoiler

(in unrealistic settings)

BREAKING NEWS: IN DEPTH STUDY OF AXE VS SHIZ REVEALS FOX LOSES TO PIKACHU!
EXTRA! FALCO'S BLUE FEATHERS CAUSE GLARE ON YOSHI'S, EGGM CONFIRMS!
OTHER HARD TO BELIEVE THINGS!

Also, read my edit.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Lol aight I'll show you stuff. Shield DI is amazing and makes life easier for everyone until everyone starts doing it LOL.

But yeah frames and stuff. I guess you can't buffered shield grab so that's probably part of the issue with why most people can't shield grab the Dair.

 

[Lightsyde]

Haha it'll happen. This game and it's neverending list of things to practice and learn. Yeah, definitely looking forward to learning more about it.

And did you mean that it's not possible to buffer shield grab (I actually don't know, I've never tried) or that I just personally can't do it (due to not knowing how etc)?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I meant it's not possible to do lol. I mean I assume it's not or we could just spam/hold A while shielding and grab when Dair stun ends. XD Also they probably would've brought that up in the discussion if it were true.

And shield DI is mad easy so it shouldn't take more than a couple minutes depending on how carried away with moves I get. =p

CRAP I NEED TO LEARN TO SHIELD DROP STILL

guh things to practice

 

[Divinokage]

Ya shield drop is OK, but it's very situational, there's not many situations where it's super good. Like block a Marth Utilt/upair, into shield drop dair/shine/nair idk before the utilt finishes can be ****ing sex. That's one situation where it can be awesome. Idk what else really.

 

[Lightsyde]

I'm gonna need you to get really carried away with moves then

Spoiler

TEACH ME YOUR SECRETS

I learn best and teach best by lengthy testing and exampling.

And guhhh shield dropping, so hard

 

[Dr Peepee]

Ya shield drop is OK, but it's very situational, there's not many situations where it's super good. Like block a Marth Utilt/upair, into shield drop dair/shine/nair idk before the utilt finishes can be ****ing sex. That's one situation where it can be awesome. Idk what else really.

That's why I need to play with it! haha

 

[lord karn]

The reason fox's dair is good on shield as a mixup is because it has a ridiculously longer amount of hitlag than the other aerials (reason why it's easy to shield DI). If you throw it in occasionally, it will mess up people's timing for shield grabs and other out of shield options and make them get hit. Uair does a similar thing, and probably even fair if you're awesome. Nair and bair are too similar in timing to really throw people off.

Also, I'm pretty sure it is always theoretically possible to shieldgrab fox if he is doing multiple aerial/shines. Even with nair, which is the best framewise, you're going to have at least 7 frames before or after you're aerial (depending on how delayed it is). However, there is literally only one frame for grabbing possible since most grabs are 7 frames. Seeing as the fox can change the timing by quite a lot more than one frame, it is impossible to 'time' the shieldgrab, making it almost never happen vs. good fox shield pressure. I'm not sure, but I think dair is slightly worse on frames than nair/bair, so that 1 frame window is a couple frames longer probably, making it a little easier. Shine out of shield or sheik's nair are other things, though. They come out on frame 3 (fox's shine oos) or 4 (falco's shine oos and sheik's nair oos) and can be timed much easier. Still, you can't just rely on a static timing and have to adjust the timing you choose depending on how delayed you think the fox will aerial/shine.

I think that's basically it in a nutshell.

Oh yeah, if people are good at shield DI I don't think dair is that good. You can just shield di out of range of the shine and then fox has much less follow up options. However, he could just space a nair after, which is almost as good, especially vs. falcon.

Edit: Also, Falco's best shield pressure is theoretically with fair. If you time it right, you can make one hit come out on the top of their shield and the other come out right before you land, and then rinse and repeat. I don't remember the frames, but I think it's nearly as good as fox pressure. It's really hard to do consistently, though.

 

[Lightsyde]

Good read, Alex. I need to play around with Fox's Dair/other aerials vs a Falco with good shield DI/OOS stuff to get a better sense.

I sometimes feel like while frames are a good point of reference, they put ideas into your head about what could work in really ideal, specific settings that I think end up getting people in trouble. Hmm

After Twitch was giving me difficulty last weekend (tired johns or not, he always does) I've been really thinking about that match up again. When I play Fox vs Falco things seem so much easier.

 

[lord karn]

In certain situations, definitely. Dair is really hard to use because not only does it mess their timing up, it's just much easier to mess up an l-cancel, which will definitely get you shield grabbed. I think this is one of the main reasons foxes don't do it often. Maybe this is what the fox boards were talking about, because they sometimes don't tend to specify whether they're talking theory or not.

As for the Falco thing, I would like to see some falcos integrate fair shield pressure occasionally. Of course, it wouldn't be used to approach the shield because it's a terrible approach. Since the move has to hit the shield at a pretty specific time, it really limits the different spaces you can approach from. However, once you've gotten on their shield, you can just start doing fairs after the first aerial. It honestly just seems better in every way than the retreating dair (except for shield pokes that lead to combos). The fair has more range than the dair, so it could even be used more effectively as a retreating aerial after shine (and has more probability to shield poke a fuller shield since it hits at top and bottom).

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

plur I really hope you decide to host tomorrow. <3

yea PLUR

I might show up if I'm not tired from work, since I don't know when I'm getting off...

Looking likely. What's a good time for everyone



Also: @Alex, can't you just mash the L-cancel? That's the main reason I don't see why
IC shield gives people such a hard time. I recall someone saying that they just mash L-cancels.

 

[Lightsyde]

You CAN mash L-Cancels and I've heard of a few people doing it. I remember Kage talking about mashing L like 5 times vs IC's to keep from getting shield grabbed.

The problem is, mashing L for for an L-cancel is just not muscle memory and it doesn't really flow well with the rest of your movement. Pressing it too many times might result in you shielding and rolling which is a super good way to die/drop combos.

Alex, I've been playing with Fair a lot lately. I haven't tried it much in shield pressure because it seems like depending on the number of times it hits, it could potentially mess with L-cancel timings. Also, is it possible to shield grab Falco between the first and second hits? Doesn't seem like it, but I felt like there was some reason for not doing it. Maybe too much landing lag?

Different but related, I used two hits of the Fair as a raw damage dealing OOS option as a mixup and it worked kind of awesomely. Falco just has better OOS options if they are close, but maybe it could punish spaced aerials....

 

[Divinokage]

Lol my cintuples L-cancels is simply my habit. But I think I've calmed down, however ya against ICs it might be good since the shield stun is completely different from all other characters. With Ganon I don't really have to worry about doing accidentals shields or roll, it never happens to me.

 

[lord karn]

You CAN mash L-Cancels and I've heard of a few people doing it. I remember Kage talking about mashing L like 5 times vs IC's to keep from getting shield grabbed.

The problem is, mashing L for for an L-cancel is just not muscle memory and it doesn't really flow well with the rest of your movement. Pressing it too many times might result in you shielding and rolling which is a super good way to die/drop combos.

Alex, I've been playing with Fair a lot lately. I haven't tried it much in shield pressure because it seems like depending on the number of times it hits, it could potentially mess with L-cancel timings. Also, is it possible to shield grab Falco between the first and second hits? Doesn't seem like it, but I felt like there was some reason for not doing it. Maybe too much landing lag?

Different but related, I used two hits of the Fair as a raw damage dealing OOS option as a mixup and it worked kind of awesomely. Falco just has better OOS options if they are close, but maybe it could punish spaced aerials....

I've also heard of players pressing L/R and then Z a split second later as a kind of option select to cover both shield l-cancel timing and hit timing. But yeah, it feels really awkward and creates more buttons to press which can start tiring you out, potentially.

I'm pretty sure they can still roll out between the two hits, but I don't think you can get shieldgrabbed. I'm not sure about shine oos or sheik nair. If you time it right, you'll get two hits of the nair to come out (rather than three). If you make the second one hit them right as you land, it doesn't have too much landing lag and it's safe.

As for aerial out of shield, it's generally a very risky thing to do unless you're sheik or marth. You have to wait for your jump frames as well as for your aerial to start up. I don't think most aerials will hit out of shield until around at least frame 8, which is slower than a shield grab. They are mostly used for the range, like you said, however, if the opponent is spacing on your shield, they will usually have time to hit you if you try to aerial, so you're better off doing a wavedash or roll backward or something.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

You CAN mash L-Cancels and I've heard of a few people doing it. I remember Kage talking about mashing L like 5 times vs IC's to keep from getting shield grabbed.

You could also just delay the L-Cancel but it could be tricky since IC has the CF Dash-dance of sheilds.

 

[Lightsyde]

Things to say! I'll respond when I get back if we're not suddenly busy

Spoiler

which we won't be. ;]

 

[Dr Peepee]

The reason fox's dair is good on shield as a mixup is because it has a ridiculously longer amount of hitlag than the other aerials (reason why it's easy to shield DI). If you throw it in occasionally, it will mess up people's timing for shield grabs and other out of shield options and make them get hit. Uair does a similar thing, and probably even fair if you're awesome. Nair and bair are too similar in timing to really throw people off.

Also, I'm pretty sure it is always theoretically possible to shieldgrab fox if he is doing multiple aerial/shines. Even with nair, which is the best framewise, you're going to have at least 7 frames before or after you're aerial (depending on how delayed it is). However, there is literally only one frame for grabbing possible since most grabs are 7 frames. Seeing as the fox can change the timing by quite a lot more than one frame, it is impossible to 'time' the shieldgrab, making it almost never happen vs. good fox shield pressure. I'm not sure, but I think dair is slightly worse on frames than nair/bair, so that 1 frame window is a couple frames longer probably, making it a little easier. Shine out of shield or sheik's nair are other things, though. They come out on frame 3 (fox's shine oos) or 4 (falco's shine oos and sheik's nair oos) and can be timed much easier. Still, you can't just rely on a static timing and have to adjust the timing you choose depending on how delayed you think the fox will aerial/shine.

I think that's basically it in a nutshell.

Oh yeah, if people are good at shield DI I don't think dair is that good. You can just shield di out of range of the shine and then fox has much less follow up options. However, he could just space a nair after, which is almost as good, especially vs. falcon.

Edit: Also, Falco's best shield pressure is theoretically with fair. If you time it right, you can make one hit come out on the top of their shield and the other come out right before you land, and then rinse and repeat. I don't remember the frames, but I think it's nearly as good as fox pressure. It's really hard to do consistently, though.

More like it's a multi hit move so it just stays out longer.

Uair sucks on shield lol it's good for stabbing and that's usually it I think. I seriously doubt Fox's Fair stuns shields long at all and it's kinda laggy.

And I feel like there's more than a 1 frame window to grab a Fox nair shining but I don't do frames it just feels that way to me.

And yeah shield DI ***** Dair lol.

I disagree with Falco's Fair being a safe idea. I think it's a good idea(thought about it a couple weeks ago) for poking and being weird/tricky but I don't think it's safe due to lag. That move is laggy. Guh.

I've also heard of players pressing L/R and then Z a split second later as a kind of option select to cover both shield l-cancel timing and hit timing. But yeah, it feels really awkward and creates more buttons to press which can start tiring you out, potentially.

I'm pretty sure they can still roll out between the two hits, but I don't think you can get shieldgrabbed. I'm not sure about shine oos or sheik nair. If you time it right, you'll get two hits of the nair to come out (rather than three). If you make the second one hit them right as you land, it doesn't have too much landing lag and it's safe.

As for aerial out of shield, it's generally a very risky thing to do unless you're sheik or marth. You have to wait for your jump frames as well as for your aerial to start up. I don't think most aerials will hit out of shield until around at least frame 8, which is slower than a shield grab. They are mostly used for the range, like you said, however, if the opponent is spacing on your shield, they will usually have time to hit you if you try to aerial, so you're better off doing a wavedash or roll backward or something.

LOL wow Fair would suck if you could shine OOS in between the hits. Well maybe not depending on spacing but there would be other ways of handling a weaker shield pressure like that(shield grab to force shield drop to CC punish for instance......bump that).

When you're shielding with Falco people wanna hit you lol so Dair and Bair OOS(especially Bair) are pretty good at times. Kinda matchup and kinda player dependent though.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

fox's nair shine pressure, if done perfectly in the middle of their shield, has i think a 8 or 9 frame window of opportunity to do stuff. dair has a 5 frame window of opportunity, so if done right, you'd have to shield DI or roll since it can't be grabbed

BUT THIS IS THEORY BROS

 

[Dark Hart]

So Fox's nair is the same as Falco's dair on shield?

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

LOL no

fox's nair is much safer than falco's dair on a shield. his sh is lower and his acceleration is faster so he can pressure safer

but falco still ***** fox

sup kevin

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yay go tell the Foxes that because that's not what I read lol.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

what are they saying lol

 

[Dr Peepee]

KK said something about if done perfectly Fox would delay his Dair 1 frame and have a 6/6 split(WTF I guess this means 6 frames of lag and 6 of inactivity before the move???) so it couldn't be punished since shield grab is 7 frames.

I dunno man I don't know frames and everyone is always saying something different lol.

 

[Dark Hart]

I think it's the shield stun

 

[Dr Peepee]

Shield stun is factored in there I think(between the 6s)?

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

i'm pretty sure it's not 6 frames

i know dair is under 7 frames though

 

[Dr Peepee]

Wellllll I don't do Fox data I just goof off with the guy for now haha.

Either way I don't like Dair'ing for pressure or much of anything really except that gay edgeguard trick LOLOL.

 

[Dark Hart]

I thought fox dair was 9 frames of lag when lcanceled.....

unless there are some IASA frames I don't know about

 

[Moophobia]

plurrr whenever you're free I'll go over.

 

[Lightsyde]

Question while we are talking about frame data:

How many frames is Marth's UpB OOS? Sometimes it seems super fast/**** and sometimes it seems like basic shield pressure ***** it. Possibly just be me not being 100% consistent at the timing yet.

 

[Dr Peepee]

No idea

ask marth boards imo

 

[Lightsyde]

I had already gone and looked at their frame data thread and it doesn't have anything about hitstun/shieldstun so it wasn't actually helpful. Where's Theo when I need him?

 

[FlowinWater]

All of you are smash nerds

HOLLA

 

[Sneak8288]

lol flowin don't act like you weren't one just because your old school

 

[FlowinWater]

I played the game a lot don't get me wrong. But I never ever broke down into an argument of frames and whatnot that is crazy. Oh well maybe I should start doing it to beat you guys

HOLLA

 

[Sneak8288]

that's because it wasn't available like it is now

 

[CaptainNanD0]

i agree with flowin why study frames? lol i dnt know anything about frames and i dnt think i need to i just play

 

[_Kadaj_]

I'm not on these?!?!?!?

Wtf PP & Yay we have to fix this

 

[stingers]

if you can beat me...you can get on these

 

[_Kadaj_]

Alright next time melee is around it's happening