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The Nintendo "Off My Chest" thread (BE CIVIL)

LiveStudioAudience

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I think Nintendo's rough time in Japan has been somewhat extended by memory longer than what the reality was. Yes, the N64 and the Gamecube greatly struggled in that market, and the Wii U would find itself eclipsed by the PS4.

However, Nintendo always maintained a strong hold in the handheld market there (with Pokémon in 1996 arguably saving the company from losing its cultural cache in the region), and I'd say as early as 2006 with the DS taking off? Nintendo's comeback in Japan had already started and the Switch's launch in 2017 is many ways the culmination of 11 years of handheld domination that basically set up the company becoming THE hardware maker in Japan.
 

chocolatejr9

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For a less heated discussion; it makes me sad how little King K. Rool is used in Mario spin-offs, even in a post-SSBU world.
Maybe they're still trying to figure out the best way to use him? Remember: he only got in Smash because of the Ballot, and would likely be stuck in a vault somewhere otherwise. Plus, even though they own him, they didn't CREATE him: that honor goes to Rare. It might be a stretch, but a part of me wonders if that has something to do with it.
 

fogbadge

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Maybe they're still trying to figure out the best way to use him? Remember: he only got in Smash because of the Ballot, and would likely be stuck in a vault somewhere otherwise. Plus, even though they own him, they didn't CREATE him: that honor goes to Rare. It might be a stretch, but a part of me wonders if that has something to do with it.
and yet diddy kong is everywhere
 

Laniv

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For a less heated discussion; it makes me sad how little King K. Rool is used in Mario spin-offs, even in a post-SSBU world.
It's kinda depressing that they built up a lot of momentum for the character after his Smash Bros reveal and then... nothing happened.

You think they're waiting to add him into another Donkey Kong game before any Mario spin-offs?

and yet diddy kong is everywhere
You have a point but he had to wait like eight years to be in Mario Kart 8, and he isn't in Super Mario Party Jamboree
 

Wario Wario Wario

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I think one problem with Smash speculation and fan demand (among many) is that a lot of people requesting characters have, for lack of a less evil-sounding term, ulterior motives, a mentality of "this will lead to that" - I think DKVine (kings of parading headcanon and theories as canon) called the phenomenon "Smash is the king-maker" - "King K. Rool in Smash = King K. Rool in DKCR3", "Banjo in Smash = Banjo-Threeie on Nintendo", "Porky in Smash = Mother 3 localisation", "Waluigi in Smash = Waluigi solo game" - when in reality, a playable Smash role is effectively just a cameo, and typically has very little bearing on a character's future, the only times I can think of outside of Virtual Console rereleases and content directly tied to Smash/Amiibos that Smash has impacted characters is 1. Kid Icarus Uprising, and 2. specific portrayals of characters who were already in the zeitgeist and not going to leave, like Wario's farts spreading from marketing material to games following Brawl.

Hell, if anyone's directly benefited from Smash in the Switch era, it's Geno, and he's not even in the damn game - you could make an argument for Daisy in Wonder maybe, but that was probably already on the table judging from Mario Run.
 
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Opossum

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I think one problem with Smash speculation and fan demand (among many) is that a lot of people requesting characters have, for lack of a less evil-sounding term, ulterior motives, a mentality of "this will lead to that" - I think DKVine (kings of parading headcanon and theories as canon) called the phenomenon "Smash is the king-maker" - "King K. Rool in Smash = King K. Rool in DKCR3", "Banjo in Smash = Banjo-Threeie on Nintendo", "Porky in Smash = Mother 3 localisation", "Waluigi in Smash = Waluigi solo game" - when in reality, a playable Smash role is effectively just a cameo, and typically has very little bearing on a character's future, the only times I can think of outside of Virtual Console rereleases and content directly tied to Smash/Amiibos that Smash has impacted characters is 1. Kid Icarus Uprising, and 2. specific portrayals of characters who were already in the zeitgeist and not going to leave, like Wario's farts spreading from marketing material to games following Brawl.

Hell, if anyone's directly benefited from Smash in the Switch era, it's Geno, and he's not even in the damn game - you could make an argument for Daisy in Wonder maybe, but that was probably already on the table judging from Mario Run.
Actually, Daisy in Wonder actually has a different, confirmed origin: Shiro Mouri, the director, said she was ultimately added because his daughters would fight over who got to play as Peach in past Mario platformers since she was the only girl. So she was added to give more of a gender balance to the game, which makes a lot of sense.
 

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Actually, Daisy in Wonder actually has a different, confirmed origin: Shiro Mouri, the director, said she was ultimately added because his daughters would fight over who got to play as Peach in past Mario platformers since she was the only girl. So she was added to give more of a gender balance to the game, which makes a lot of sense.
It was never confirmed but I'm guessing this is why Toadette has been included in more Mario platformers lately.
 

fogbadge

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You have a point but he had to wait like eight years to be in Mario Kart 8, and he isn't in Super Mario Party Jamboree
ah but he was also the only kong mario could dress up as in odyssey. and after a quick check he did appear in a couple other spin offs during that time

Actually, Daisy in Wonder actually has a different, confirmed origin: Shiro Mouri, the director, said she was ultimately added because his daughters would fight over who got to play as Peach in past Mario platformers since she was the only girl. So she was added to give more of a gender balance to the game, which makes a lot of sense.
that is definitely one of my favourite game development stories
 

Guynamednelson

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I’m actually surprised that Super Mario Bros. Wonder didn’t have a “Course Maker” side mode. I think that would’ve been a great form of DLC.
Yeah… it’s not like Nintendo have a specific Mario sub-series dedicated to course creation, right?
I kinda feel like the point of Wonder was to show off stuff you COULDN'T make in Maker.

After all, what's the point of making a standard Mario platformer if you've given the fans tools to one-up such a thing?
 

Quillion

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I think one problem with Smash speculation and fan demand (among many) is that a lot of people requesting characters have, for lack of a less evil-sounding term, ulterior motives, a mentality of "this will lead to that" - I think DKVine (kings of parading headcanon and theories as canon) called the phenomenon "Smash is the king-maker" - "King K. Rool in Smash = King K. Rool in DKCR3", "Banjo in Smash = Banjo-Threeie on Nintendo", "Porky in Smash = Mother 3 localisation", "Waluigi in Smash = Waluigi solo game" - when in reality, a playable Smash role is effectively just a cameo, and typically has very little bearing on a character's future, the only times I can think of outside of Virtual Console rereleases and content directly tied to Smash/Amiibos that Smash has impacted characters is 1. Kid Icarus Uprising, and 2. specific portrayals of characters who were already in the zeitgeist and not going to leave, like Wario's farts spreading from marketing material to games following Brawl.

Hell, if anyone's directly benefited from Smash in the Switch era, it's Geno, and he's not even in the damn game - you could make an argument for Daisy in Wonder maybe, but that was probably already on the table judging from Mario Run.
Smash IS a king-maker to some extent. Being associated with the series is a big privilege whether you like it or not or whether the character in question is active or not.

NGL though, I do think Nintendo sitting on many potential opportunities to build on less-active franchises in Smash is missing an opportunity. I get that it's Nintendo's cautiousness at work, but it's a double-edged sword that prevents reaching the highest peaks because they're too afraid of the hardest falls.
 

BritishGuy54

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I think the games industry is in a bit of a slump where no one is really satisfied, and really needs something new.
  • The PS5 and XBOX Series have been a bit underwhelming in the lack of a graphical upgrade.
  • The Switch is coming up to eight years old, and is still underpowered.
  • PC gaming hasn’t taken off in the mainstream like many proclaim.
I think the Switch 2’s imminent release and the possibility of having a strong graphical upgrade plus being very flexible in places to play is what the industry needs right now.
 

Champion of Hyrule

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I think the games industry is in a bit of a slump where no one is really satisfied, and really needs something new.
  • The PS5 and XBOX Series have been a bit underwhelming in the lack of a graphical upgrade.
  • The Switch is coming up to eight years old, and is still underpowered.
  • PC gaming hasn’t taken off in the mainstream like many proclaim.
I think the Switch 2’s imminent release and the possibility of having a strong graphical upgrade plus being very flexible in places to play is what the industry needs right now.
“Graphical upgrades” are probably one of the last things the industry should be focusing on right now
 

Guynamednelson

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The PS5 and XBOX Series have been a bit underwhelming in the lack of a graphical upgrade.
Wouldn't exactly say that so much as most devs aren't making full use of its power. The PS5 and Xbox Series X ARE substantially stronger than the PS4/Xbone, but since most devs focus on making multiplats instead of console exclusives, they have to make sure their assets either run on the base PS4, or if they want to fully commit to 9th-gen consoles, the Series S.
 

SharkLord

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I think the games industry is in a bit of a slump where no one is really satisfied, and really needs something new.
  • The PS5 and XBOX Series have been a bit underwhelming in the lack of a graphical upgrade.
  • The Switch is coming up to eight years old, and is still underpowered.
  • PC gaming hasn’t taken off in the mainstream like many proclaim.
I think the Switch 2’s imminent release and the possibility of having a strong graphical upgrade plus being very flexible in places to play is what the industry needs right now.
Graphics have more or less plateaued. We did it guys, we can render every skin pore in some guy's face in 4K with ultra-detailed mocap facial animations, just like every other AAA game on the market. Like, yeah, realism was always a target for a lot of devs, but until the 8th generation true photorealism wasn't an option. Now that it is an option, there's no workarounds or experimentation, every big game is just the same old generic cinematic photorealism. Graphical upgrades just don't mean much anymore. Actually stylized graphics are significantly more appealing, especially since we now have the power and experience to get really good looking games like Hi-Fi Rush.

The real upgrades are processing power. Games like Dragon Ball: Sparking Zero or Monster Hunter Wilds simply couldn't exist on even 8th-gen consoles because of just how much they have to handle. The Switch was underpowered from the get-go as the tradeoff for being portable, and it's an honest-to-God wonder some games can run on it at all, like Witcher 3 or Doom '16. Even first-party titles struggle with the framerate in some places, like XC2 or Grezzo's Zelda games. Hell, the Switch chugs on the friggin' eShop. Being able to run most 8th-gen ports and (hopefully) the eShop smoothly, even on the go, will be a massive boon for the Switch 2.
 
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Guynamednelson

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Graphics have more or less plateaued.
Not to mention that VR games have to be rendered with extremely high resolutions and framerates while rendering the game on 2 screens in order to reduce motion sickness, so if you want your game to have VR support, it can't really have a higher polycount than PS4 games did.

Here's something else regarding graphics plateauing I posted in another thread:
That said, something interesting regarding console power is the evolution of car polycounts in the Gran Turismo games:
  • Cars made for the PS1 games had a few hundred polygons
  • Cars made for the PS2 had a few thousand polygons
  • "Premium" cars in the PS3 games (ones that have new models instead of recycled PS2 ones) had a few hundred thousand polygons
  • Cars in GT Sport and 7 have...several hundred thousand polygons
As a result, despite how GT Sport is supposed to be a purging of all the old car models regardless of their polycount, they've eventually brought back various PS3 car models in content updates for it and 7 since the differences in their car models aren't as substantial anymore.
 

SharkLord

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Not to mention that VR games have to be rendered with extremely high resolutions and framerates while rendering the game on 2 screens in order to reduce motion sickness, so if you want your game to have VR support, it can't really have a higher polycount than PS4 games did.

Here's something else regarding graphics plateauing I posted in another thread:
1729981941641.png

I always dial back to this image because it really is just like that. At a certain point you just can't tell the difference
 

Quillion

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“Graphical upgrades” are probably one of the last things the industry should be focusing on right now
I think the next Nintendo console SHOULD have a "strong" graphical upgrade by all means.

...but not to the point where it reaches the impractical levels of the PS5 and Xbox Series (and especially NOT the level of the PS5 Pro). Considering many developers are targeting a PS4/XBone level of fidelity, I think that's a good sweet spot.

The real upgrades are processing power.
I'm sure Nintendo will prioritize that route, but IIRC, processing power is much harder to utilize than more graphics-oriented upgrades. Graphics are easily scalable as they are now, but using processing power requires deep, technical knowledge of optimization.

So it might still lightly deter third-party devs, but as long as Nintendo downporting remains a viable business, maybe it could still work.
 

SharkLord

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I think the next Nintendo console SHOULD have a "strong" graphical upgrade by all means.

...but not to the point where it reaches the impractical levels of the PS5 and Xbox Series (and especially NOT the level of the PS5 Pro). Considering many developers are targeting a PS4/XBone level of fidelity, I think that's a good sweet spot.



I'm sure Nintendo will prioritize that route, but IIRC, processing power is much harder to utilize than more graphics-oriented upgrades. Graphics are easily scalable as they are now, but using processing power requires deep, technical knowledge of optimization.

So it might still lightly deter third-party devs, but as long as Nintendo downporting remains a viable business, maybe it could still work.
Yeah, current rumors are that the Switch 2 will be around PS4/PS4 Pro levels, which is probably the last big graphical upgrade they can manage. Most 3rd-parties make games around that level, but not many games really need the graphical power of the ninth generation. Maybe it's because those sorts of games just take too much resources to make, so there's only ever so many that can be made at a time
 

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I think even as a dumb teenager whose grasp of quality hadn’t developed yet, I subconsciously knew that 2015-2016 was the worst time to be a Nintendo fan.
I think everyone could feel those were dark times.

Even if you like everything they made, there was a huge drought.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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That 2015-2016 period specifically stood out because even previous shaky periods of Nintendo had the passion of the hardcore audience and/or the promise of something stronger coming in the future. The N64 had its software droughts but it felt like cutting age technology and there was a sense it was building a 3D foundation that future hardware could improve on. The Gamecube was Nintendo being on the wrong side of a cultural zeitgeist in gaming, but the games that were there immensely pleased the younger fanbase and the handheld halves of that generation (GBA and DS) had consistently great output.

Latter era Wii U was troubling because there wasn't really anything to mitigate just how of step Nintendo felt. The 3DS was strong (arguably putting out of one its greatest titles in Planet Robobot circa 2016) but the decline in excitement about in comparison the DS was obvious and much of the novelty with that kind of portable system was whittled away by the rise of smart phones. The Wii U was finally putting out games that put the touchscreen to good use (Splatoon & Mario Maker), but the damage was already done, and many viewed the console either as a mistake or as a wasted opportunity.

Good feelings or general hype rely on trust and the promise of potential and Nintendo at that point (to the general public) had lost much of both. The questionable gameplay experiments with big IP's, the Wii U droughts brought on by the company's struggles with HD, and an overall sense that they didn't understand audiences either casual (like the Wii did) or hardcore (like the Gamecube did)? It's no wonder that the major sentiment seemed to be malaise verging on doom & gloom about them because Nintendo hadn't really done anything consistently well enough to suggest otherwise.

Its why I view their E3 in 2015 as the nadir point for Nintendo, where so many of the games featured were emblematic of either spin-off with questionable mass appeals or clearly titles thrown out by a company attempting to fill out a schedule after badly misjudging their abilities in HD production and the tastes of the audience. 2016 may have been a weaker year, but the wheels of their renaissance were already turning at that point and the Breath of the Wild video at that year's E3 would be a taste of the new direction that would eventually take them back to the top again.
 
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Quillion

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Kinda makes me think though: the struggles with HD development were actually Nintendo being late to the party: they were felt the entire previous generation by Japanese devs and most mid-size devs in general.

Does this mean that Nintendo could potentially fall into the 9th gen's trap of the consoles being impractically powerful?
 

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Kinda makes me think though: the struggles with HD development were actually Nintendo being late to the party: they were felt the entire previous generation by Japanese devs and most mid-size devs in general.

Does this mean that Nintendo could potentially fall into the 9th gen's trap of the consoles being impractically powerful?
They've gone on record stating that games will get longer and costlier to make as they get bigger, but even so, Nintendo's still continued to publish smaller, low-budget exclusives that don't back on selling a million copies day one. We got revivals for stuff like Another Code, Endless Ocean, and Famicom Detective Club, plus lower-end remasters like Metroid Prime and Kirby's Return to Dreamland to fill the gaps. With Sony and Microsoft, they kinda back everything on a select few gigaton triple-A games and not much else.
 

Quillion

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I am incredibly unsurprised that Nintendo has finally announced their own music service/app.

Given their difficulties keeping network costs down while providing good service, their purges every big-name release, and the fact that most music publishing companies are notoriously corrupt, I can see that this move was the most "aligned" with Nintendo's business model.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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When looking back at the reaction to Wind Waker's reveal in 2002, the narrative that's formed now is that it was an example of shallow and insecure gamers pre-judging a game for its aesthetics and unfairly knocking it because they felt entitled to a more mature looking Zelda game based on the Spaceworld 2000 tech demo. While much of that is true, I think actual context was slightly more nuanced than just that.

I've mentioned before that Ocarina somewhat elevated Zelda into the mature franchise of Nintendo especially with Metroid still in hibernation and Fire Emblem not having broken out in the West. What's also relevant was that the Gamecube quickly found itself having released on the wrong side of a zeitgeist shift that hit gaming hard in 2000/2001. Major genre defining titles likes GTA III, Metal Gear Solid 2, and Halo were all making significant impacts and none of them were coming out on Nintendo consoles.

Then when you consider the other big events of the time period like Sega going third party, Microsoft making online play with Xbox Live a cornerstone of the console, and numerous non-platformer genres doing even stronger business on the PS2 than the PS1? It added to the perception of the Gamecube was a nice console for kids starting out with the hobby but not a system made for fans wanting more sophisticated and/or evolving gameplay experiences. Adding to this were films like Lord of the Rings Fellowship of the Ring getting incredibly big around this time and illustrating the impact well executed fantasy stories could have when done with respect to the genre.

Such a situation I think made Zelda perceived as even more critical to some Nintendo hardcores; the big first party IP that (by the definitions of the time period) could be the mature and nuanced franchise that the Gamecube really needed. A significant and realistic Zelda title could thus do for that series what X did for Final Fantasy; taking the growth in the 5th generation to an even further level and really demonstrate just how depth LoZ really had. You have all the hype and expectation of what this next game could be and in 2002 fans and the broader gaming public after all that time saw this:


Now this isn't a bad trailer, however in a lot of ways it doesn't quite do justice to the full scope or even entire tone of Wind Waker. It highlights the charm of the designs and the range of facial expressions delightfully, but if you knew nothing about WW and just had this to go off, you could be forgiven for assuming the next entry was Zelda by way of Looney Tunes. It was essentially one of the least ideal reveals given the presumption of the time period and for some it probably felt like a complete betrayal.

Keep in mind, I'm not defending the practice of writing off an entire game with such little footage just due to art style. There was a clear self-image issue video game and especially Nintendo fans had about the hobby at that point, and much of the pre-emptive dismissal of the cell shaded cartoon aesthetic was rooted in that. Given the direction of where gaming seemed to be going though, I think some disappointment was at least a little bit understandable. The industry's eventual excess in "real" aesthetics circa the 7th gen and the subsequent move away from it in the 8th was something few could have predicted at the time and Wind Waker's art style, while aging beautifully in the two decades since, seemed symbolic of Nintendo's commercial and cultural superannuation to hardcore fans (a status it arguably it didn't entirely shake off until the Switch).

Basically, while WW getting its flowers now is entirely justified and the "Celda" dismissal was in many ways silly, the backlash did make sense with Nintendo's then place in the broader industry and a media form that was finally hitting some mainstream recognition after 15-20 years of being seen as a kid's hobby. It was a brilliant title whose merits were simply not of critical value to what many believed gaming needed at that time.
 

Wario Wario Wario

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When looking back at the reaction to Wind Waker's reveal in 2002, the narrative that's formed now is that it was an example of shallow and insecure gamers pre-judging a game for its aesthetics and unfairly knocking it because they felt entitled to a more mature looking Zelda game based on the Spaceworld 2000 tech demo. While much of that is true, I think actual context was slightly more nuanced than just that.

I've mentioned before that Ocarina somewhat elevated Zelda into the mature franchise of Nintendo especially with Metroid still in hibernation and Fire Emblem not having broken out in the West. What's also relevant was that the Gamecube quickly found itself having released on the wrong side of a zeitgeist shift that hit gaming hard in 2000/2001. Major genre defining titles likes GTA III, Metal Gear Solid 2, and Halo were all making significant impacts and none of them were coming out on Nintendo consoles.

Then when you consider the other big events of the time period like Sega going third party, Microsoft making online play with Xbox Live a cornerstone of the console, and numerous non-platformer genres doing even stronger business on the PS2 than the PS1? It added to the perception of the Gamecube was a nice console for kids starting out with the hobby but not a system made for fans wanting more sophisticated and/or evolving gameplay experiences. Adding to this were films like Lord of the Rings Fellowship of the Ring getting incredibly big around this time and illustrating the impact well executed fantasy stories could have when done with respect to the genre.

Such a situation I think made Zelda perceived as even more critical to some Nintendo hardcores; the big first party IP that (by the definitions of the time period) could be the mature and nuanced franchise that the Gamecube really needed. A significant and realistic Zelda title could thus do for that series what X did for Final Fantasy; taking the growth in the 5th generation to an even further level and really demonstrate just how depth LoZ really had. You have all the hype and expectation of what this next game could be and in 2002 fans and the broader gaming public after all that time saw this:


Now this isn't a bad trailer, however in a lot of ways it doesn't quite do justice to the full scope or even entire tone of Wind Waker. It highlights the charm of the designs and the range of facial expressions delightfully, but if you knew nothing about WW and just had this to go off, you could be forgiven for assuming the next entry was Zelda by way of Looney Tunes. It was essentially one of the least ideal reveals given the presumption of the time period and for some it probably felt like a complete betrayal.

Keep in mind, I'm not defending the practice of writing off an entire game with such little footage just due to art style. There was a clear self-image issue video game and especially Nintendo fans had about the hobby at that point, and much of the pre-emptive dismissal of the cell shaded cartoon aesthetic was rooted in that. Given the direction of where gaming seemed to be going though, I think some disappointment was at least a little bit understandable. The industry's eventual excess in "real" aesthetics circa the 7th gen and the subsequent move away from it in the 8th was something few could have predicted at the time and Wind Waker's art style, while aging beautifully in the two decades since, seemed symbolic of Nintendo's commercial and cultural superannuation to hardcore fans (a status it arguably it didn't entirely shake off until the Switch).

Basically, while WW getting its flowers now is entirely justified and the "Celda" dismissal was in many ways silly, the backlash did make sense with Nintendo's then place in the broader industry and a media form that was finally hitting some mainstream recognition after 15-20 years of being seen as a kid's hobby. It was a brilliant title whose merits were simply not of critical value to what many believed gaming needed at that time.
I assume a lot of people who retroactively criticise the reception of Wind Waker are aware of this context and are criticising that context specifically, alongside or even instead of the reaction in a vacuum - whether in the sense of "Nintendo fans playing backseat capitalist" or "Zelda fans don't want to be seen as babies" - at least that's the vibe I get when I see this dragged back up, since the "edgy = money" notion of the early 00s and the eventual backlash to it isn't really a forgotten context, it wasn't all that long ago since "Ow, the edge" was a meme - but I wouldn't know since I'm not really tuned to the Zelda discourse outside of Tingle-related matters specifically.
 
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Quillion

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LiveStudioAudience LiveStudioAudience and Wario Wario Wario Wario Wario Wario

Honestly, I think a lot of the Nintendo discourse (frankly, gaming discourse in general) has a giant "internet bias" that makes 'net-age discourse seem a lot more divisive and inflammatory than pre-'net discourse.

Now don't get me wrong, that IS still true (just as how the internet is more inflammatory than TV, which is more inflammatory than movies, which is more inflammatory than radio, which is more inflammatory than written word, which is more inflammatory than pictures...), but IDK, it feels like there's a lot of ignorance towards a lot of pre-or-early 'net "shifts" making people angry. People have told me that Mario 64 not being a linear obstacle course was alienating, or that Pac-Man World being a fairly straight platformer with extremely light maze elements was too. Or that even Final Fantasy VIII was very divisive due to FF7 newcomers not being familiar about FF's "non-linear" nature.

Meh, I guess what I'm trying to say is the internet ruined discourse in general and made more people less able to agree on stuff. That's just how I see it though.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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At the end of the day all we have to go off of are the online footprints we can find and the personal memories we have (however unreliable either of those are). The observations on WW and the Gamecube more specifically are definitely reflective of my own thoughts to a degree and the sentiment I encountered both online and among friends/peers I had at the time. While the internet does tend to poison discourse at a remarkably quick speed, I will say video games are lucky as a medium to have so many opinions/thoughts about it recorded so early in its lifespan. Stuff like newsgroups on Usenet are obviously filtered opinions coming from through those using internet at that time, but they are invaluable insights to at least some of the sentiments from the time period.
 
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Quillion

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At the end of the day all we have to go off of are the online footprints we can find and the personal memories we have (however unreliable either of those are). The observations on WW and the Gamecube more specifically are definitely reflective of my own thoughts to a degree and the sentiment I encountered both online and among friends/peers I had at the time. While the internet does tend to poison discourse at a remarkably quick speed, I will say video games are lucky as a medium to have so many opinions/thoughts about it recorded so early in its lifespan. Stuff like newsgroups on Usenet are obviously filtered opinions coming from through those using internet at that time, but they are invaluable insights to at least some of the sentiments from the time period.
Oh man, imagine if we actually had recorded heated arguments about the quality of Beethoven's compositions before and after he went deaf.
 

Lenidem

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When looking back at the reaction to Wind Waker's reveal in 2002, the narrative that's formed now is that it was an example of shallow and insecure gamers pre-judging a game for its aesthetics and unfairly knocking it because they felt entitled to a more mature looking Zelda game based on the Spaceworld 2000 tech demo. While much of that is true, I think actual context was slightly more nuanced than just that.

I've mentioned before that Ocarina somewhat elevated Zelda into the mature franchise of Nintendo especially with Metroid still in hibernation and Fire Emblem not having broken out in the West. What's also relevant was that the Gamecube quickly found itself having released on the wrong side of a zeitgeist shift that hit gaming hard in 2000/2001. Major genre defining titles likes GTA III, Metal Gear Solid 2, and Halo were all making significant impacts and none of them were coming out on Nintendo consoles.

Then when you consider the other big events of the time period like Sega going third party, Microsoft making online play with Xbox Live a cornerstone of the console, and numerous non-platformer genres doing even stronger business on the PS2 than the PS1? It added to the perception of the Gamecube was a nice console for kids starting out with the hobby but not a system made for fans wanting more sophisticated and/or evolving gameplay experiences. Adding to this were films like Lord of the Rings Fellowship of the Ring getting incredibly big around this time and illustrating the impact well executed fantasy stories could have when done with respect to the genre.

Such a situation I think made Zelda perceived as even more critical to some Nintendo hardcores; the big first party IP that (by the definitions of the time period) could be the mature and nuanced franchise that the Gamecube really needed. A significant and realistic Zelda title could thus do for that series what X did for Final Fantasy; taking the growth in the 5th generation to an even further level and really demonstrate just how depth LoZ really had. You have all the hype and expectation of what this next game could be and in 2002 fans and the broader gaming public after all that time saw this:


Now this isn't a bad trailer, however in a lot of ways it doesn't quite do justice to the full scope or even entire tone of Wind Waker. It highlights the charm of the designs and the range of facial expressions delightfully, but if you knew nothing about WW and just had this to go off, you could be forgiven for assuming the next entry was Zelda by way of Looney Tunes. It was essentially one of the least ideal reveals given the presumption of the time period and for some it probably felt like a complete betrayal.

Keep in mind, I'm not defending the practice of writing off an entire game with such little footage just due to art style. There was a clear self-image issue video game and especially Nintendo fans had about the hobby at that point, and much of the pre-emptive dismissal of the cell shaded cartoon aesthetic was rooted in that. Given the direction of where gaming seemed to be going though, I think some disappointment was at least a little bit understandable. The industry's eventual excess in "real" aesthetics circa the 7th gen and the subsequent move away from it in the 8th was something few could have predicted at the time and Wind Waker's art style, while aging beautifully in the two decades since, seemed symbolic of Nintendo's commercial and cultural superannuation to hardcore fans (a status it arguably it didn't entirely shake off until the Switch).

Basically, while WW getting its flowers now is entirely justified and the "Celda" dismissal was in many ways silly, the backlash did make sense with Nintendo's then place in the broader industry and a media form that was finally hitting some mainstream recognition after 15-20 years of being seen as a kid's hobby. It was a brilliant title whose merits were simply not of critical value to what many believed gaming needed at that time.
I totally agree. Back then, I was like 14, and the disappointment was huge, for all the reasons you said. I even signed the infamous petition. When Wind Waker arrived, I thought it was better than I thought, although not as good as I had hoped, but in any case, it was not what I wanted. Then we got Twilight Princess, and for me it was the opposite: I wanted a "mature", "realistic" Zelda, but the script and the characters were so bland and edgy, so fakely deep (yes, looking at you, Midna) that, for a long time, I gave up hope for the series - until Breath of the Wild, actually.
 
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Quillion

Smash Hero
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Sep 17, 2014
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but the script and the characters were so bland and edgy, so fakely deep (yes, looking at you, Midna) that, for a long time, I gave up hope for the series - until Breath of the Wild, actually.
Y'know, speaking of that, I think a lot of the perceived flaws of Tears of the Kingdom's story are more of a Twilight Princess-Skyward Sword-era problem than it is a Wild-era problem.

At least BotW for its memory story being fairly simple, benefits from being able to focus on Zelda's growth very closely while the secondary characters like the Champions have legitimate charm to them.

But then TotK's memory story focuses on a character who can't really grow (Zelda, whose character arc was finished the previous game) while focusing on other characters who are at best undercooked (Sonia dies before much is done with her, Rauru is just "pure good" without much real personal struggle, the Archaic Sages are barely even characters, etc.). So it's not really different from SS focusing on Link's "growth" (when he's still mostly pulling the "silent player-insert" role and therefore failing on that front) or TP juggling so many different side plots that no character ever gets a real time to shine.
 

Diddy Kong

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and yet diddy kong is everywhere
I really don't think so. Diddy is more often excluded than included in Mario spin off stuff. Or added last minute like Mario Kart 8.

Slightly related but off my chest feeling about Nintendo right now, and for the last decade is basically : they REALLY ****ed up with the Donkey Kong brand, and even if they have a grand revival of sorts planned, it's no excuse to have a series this big be dormant for this long, for a second time. This is a huge **** up.
 

fogbadge

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I really don't think so. Diddy is more often excluded than included in Mario spin off stuff. Or added last minute like Mario Kart 8.

Slightly related but off my chest feeling about Nintendo right now, and for the last decade is basically : they REALLY *ed up with the Donkey Kong brand, and even if they have a grand revival of sorts planned, it's no excuse to have a series this big be dormant for this long, for a second time. This is a huge * up.
please don't take your frustrations over the series out on an old post of mine
 
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