The Nintendo "Off My Chest" thread (BE CIVIL)

[LiveStudioAudience]

I think Nintendo's rough time in Japan has been somewhat extended by memory longer than what the reality was. Yes, the N64 and the Gamecube greatly struggled in that market, and the Wii U would find itself eclipsed by the PS4.

However, Nintendo always maintained a strong hold in the handheld market there (with Pokémon in 1996 arguably saving the company from losing its cultural cache in the region), and I'd say as early as 2006 with the DS taking off? Nintendo's comeback in Japan had already started and the Switch's launch in 2017 is many ways the culmination of 11 years of handheld domination that basically set up the company becoming THE hardware maker in Japan.

 

[Perkilator]

For a less heated discussion; it makes me sad how little King K. Rool is used in Mario spin-offs, even in a post-SSBU world.

 

[fogbadge]

For a less heated discussion; it makes me sad how little King K. Rool is used in Mario spin-offs, even in a post-SSBU world.

he’d be great in Mario kart

 

[UserKev]

King K. Rool WOULD be great in Mario Party. His greed would translate masterfully.

 

[chocolatejr9]

For a less heated discussion; it makes me sad how little King K. Rool is used in Mario spin-offs, even in a post-SSBU world.

Maybe they're still trying to figure out the best way to use him? Remember: he only got in Smash because of the Ballot, and would likely be stuck in a vault somewhere otherwise. Plus, even though they own him, they didn't CREATE him: that honor goes to Rare. It might be a stretch, but a part of me wonders if that has something to do with it.

 

[fogbadge]

Maybe they're still trying to figure out the best way to use him? Remember: he only got in Smash because of the Ballot, and would likely be stuck in a vault somewhere otherwise. Plus, even though they own him, they didn't CREATE him: that honor goes to Rare. It might be a stretch, but a part of me wonders if that has something to do with it.

and yet diddy kong is everywhere

 

[Laniv]

For a less heated discussion; it makes me sad how little King K. Rool is used in Mario spin-offs, even in a post-SSBU world.

It's kinda depressing that they built up a lot of momentum for the character after his Smash Bros reveal and then... nothing happened.

You think they're waiting to add him into another Donkey Kong game before any Mario spin-offs?

and yet diddy kong is everywhere

You have a point but he had to wait like eight years to be in Mario Kart 8, and he isn't in Super Mario Party Jamboree

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I think one problem with Smash speculation and fan demand (among many) is that a lot of people requesting characters have, for lack of a less evil-sounding term, ulterior motives, a mentality of "this will lead to that" - I think DKVine (kings of parading headcanon and theories as canon) called the phenomenon "Smash is the king-maker" - "King K. Rool in Smash = King K. Rool in DKCR3", "Banjo in Smash = Banjo-Threeie on Nintendo", "Porky in Smash = Mother 3 localisation", "Waluigi in Smash = Waluigi solo game" - when in reality, a playable Smash role is effectively just a cameo, and typically has very little bearing on a character's future, the only times I can think of outside of Virtual Console rereleases and content directly tied to Smash/Amiibos that Smash has impacted characters is 1. Kid Icarus Uprising, and 2. specific portrayals of characters who were already in the zeitgeist and not going to leave, like Wario's farts spreading from marketing material to games following Brawl.

Hell, if anyone's directly benefited from Smash in the Switch era, it's Geno, and he's not even in the damn game - you could make an argument for Daisy in Wonder maybe, but that was probably already on the table judging from Mario Run.

 

[Opossum]

I think one problem with Smash speculation and fan demand (among many) is that a lot of people requesting characters have, for lack of a less evil-sounding term, ulterior motives, a mentality of "this will lead to that" - I think DKVine (kings of parading headcanon and theories as canon) called the phenomenon "Smash is the king-maker" - "King K. Rool in Smash = King K. Rool in DKCR3", "Banjo in Smash = Banjo-Threeie on Nintendo", "Porky in Smash = Mother 3 localisation", "Waluigi in Smash = Waluigi solo game" - when in reality, a playable Smash role is effectively just a cameo, and typically has very little bearing on a character's future, the only times I can think of outside of Virtual Console rereleases and content directly tied to Smash/Amiibos that Smash has impacted characters is 1. Kid Icarus Uprising, and 2. specific portrayals of characters who were already in the zeitgeist and not going to leave, like Wario's farts spreading from marketing material to games following Brawl.

Hell, if anyone's directly benefited from Smash in the Switch era, it's Geno, and he's not even in the damn game - you could make an argument for Daisy in Wonder maybe, but that was probably already on the table judging from Mario Run.

Actually, Daisy in Wonder actually has a different, confirmed origin: Shiro Mouri, the director, said she was ultimately added because his daughters would fight over who got to play as Peach in past Mario platformers since she was the only girl. So she was added to give more of a gender balance to the game, which makes a lot of sense.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Actually, Daisy in Wonder actually has a different, confirmed origin: Shiro Mouri, the director, said she was ultimately added because his daughters would fight over who got to play as Peach in past Mario platformers since she was the only girl. So she was added to give more of a gender balance to the game, which makes a lot of sense.

It was never confirmed but I'm guessing this is why Toadette has been included in more Mario platformers lately.

 

[fogbadge]

You have a point but he had to wait like eight years to be in Mario Kart 8, and he isn't in Super Mario Party Jamboree

ah but he was also the only kong mario could dress up as in odyssey. and after a quick check he did appear in a couple other spin offs during that time

Actually, Daisy in Wonder actually has a different, confirmed origin: Shiro Mouri, the director, said she was ultimately added because his daughters would fight over who got to play as Peach in past Mario platformers since she was the only girl. So she was added to give more of a gender balance to the game, which makes a lot of sense.

that is definitely one of my favourite game development stories

 

[Perkilator]

I’m actually surprised that Super Mario Bros. Wonder didn’t have a “Course Maker” side mode. I think that would’ve been a great form of DLC.

 

[BritishGuy54]

I’m actually surprised that Super Mario Bros. Wonder didn’t have a “Course Maker” side mode. I think that would’ve been a great form of DLC.

Yeah… it’s not like Nintendo have a specific Mario sub-series dedicated to course creation, right?

 

[Guynamednelson]

I’m actually surprised that Super Mario Bros. Wonder didn’t have a “Course Maker” side mode. I think that would’ve been a great form of DLC.

Yeah… it’s not like Nintendo have a specific Mario sub-series dedicated to course creation, right?

I kinda feel like the point of Wonder was to show off stuff you COULDN'T make in Maker.

After all, what's the point of making a standard Mario platformer if you've given the fans tools to one-up such a thing?

 

[Quillion]

I think one problem with Smash speculation and fan demand (among many) is that a lot of people requesting characters have, for lack of a less evil-sounding term, ulterior motives, a mentality of "this will lead to that" - I think DKVine (kings of parading headcanon and theories as canon) called the phenomenon "Smash is the king-maker" - "King K. Rool in Smash = King K. Rool in DKCR3", "Banjo in Smash = Banjo-Threeie on Nintendo", "Porky in Smash = Mother 3 localisation", "Waluigi in Smash = Waluigi solo game" - when in reality, a playable Smash role is effectively just a cameo, and typically has very little bearing on a character's future, the only times I can think of outside of Virtual Console rereleases and content directly tied to Smash/Amiibos that Smash has impacted characters is 1. Kid Icarus Uprising, and 2. specific portrayals of characters who were already in the zeitgeist and not going to leave, like Wario's farts spreading from marketing material to games following Brawl.

Hell, if anyone's directly benefited from Smash in the Switch era, it's Geno, and he's not even in the damn game - you could make an argument for Daisy in Wonder maybe, but that was probably already on the table judging from Mario Run.

Smash IS a king-maker to some extent. Being associated with the series is a big privilege whether you like it or not or whether the character in question is active or not.

NGL though, I do think Nintendo sitting on many potential opportunities to build on less-active franchises in Smash is missing an opportunity. I get that it's Nintendo's cautiousness at work, but it's a double-edged sword that prevents reaching the highest peaks because they're too afraid of the hardest falls.

 

[BritishGuy54]

I think the games industry is in a bit of a slump where no one is really satisfied, and really needs something new.

• The PS5 and XBOX Series have been a bit underwhelming in the lack of a graphical upgrade.
• The Switch is coming up to eight years old, and is still underpowered.
• PC gaming hasn’t taken off in the mainstream like many proclaim.

I think the Switch 2’s imminent release and the possibility of having a strong graphical upgrade plus being very flexible in places to play is what the industry needs right now.

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

I think the games industry is in a bit of a slump where no one is really satisfied, and really needs something new.

• The PS5 and XBOX Series have been a bit underwhelming in the lack of a graphical upgrade.
• The Switch is coming up to eight years old, and is still underpowered.
• PC gaming hasn’t taken off in the mainstream like many proclaim.

I think the Switch 2’s imminent release and the possibility of having a strong graphical upgrade plus being very flexible in places to play is what the industry needs right now.

“Graphical upgrades” are probably one of the last things the industry should be focusing on right now

 

[Guynamednelson]

The PS5 and XBOX Series have been a bit underwhelming in the lack of a graphical upgrade.

Wouldn't exactly say that so much as most devs aren't making full use of its power. The PS5 and Xbox Series X ARE substantially stronger than the PS4/Xbone, but since most devs focus on making multiplats instead of console exclusives, they have to make sure their assets either run on the base PS4, or if they want to fully commit to 9th-gen consoles, the Series S.

 

[SharkLord]

I think the games industry is in a bit of a slump where no one is really satisfied, and really needs something new.

• The PS5 and XBOX Series have been a bit underwhelming in the lack of a graphical upgrade.
• The Switch is coming up to eight years old, and is still underpowered.
• PC gaming hasn’t taken off in the mainstream like many proclaim.

I think the Switch 2’s imminent release and the possibility of having a strong graphical upgrade plus being very flexible in places to play is what the industry needs right now.

Graphics have more or less plateaued. We did it guys, we can render every skin pore in some guy's face in 4K with ultra-detailed mocap facial animations, just like every other AAA game on the market. Like, yeah, realism was always a target for a lot of devs, but until the 8th generation true photorealism wasn't an option. Now that it is an option, there's no workarounds or experimentation, every big game is just the same old generic cinematic photorealism. Graphical upgrades just don't mean much anymore. Actually stylized graphics are significantly more appealing, especially since we now have the power and experience to get really good looking games like Hi-Fi Rush.

The real upgrades are processing power. Games like Dragon Ball: Sparking Zero or Monster Hunter Wilds simply couldn't exist on even 8th-gen consoles because of just how much they have to handle. The Switch was underpowered from the get-go as the tradeoff for being portable, and it's an honest-to-God wonder some games can run on it at all, like Witcher 3 or Doom '16. Even first-party titles struggle with the framerate in some places, like XC2 or Grezzo's Zelda games. Hell, the Switch chugs on the friggin' eShop. Being able to run most 8th-gen ports and (hopefully) the eShop smoothly, even on the go, will be a massive boon for the Switch 2.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Graphics have more or less plateaued.

Not to mention that VR games have to be rendered with extremely high resolutions and framerates while rendering the game on 2 screens in order to reduce motion sickness, so if you want your game to have VR support, it can't really have a higher polycount than PS4 games did.

Here's something else regarding graphics plateauing I posted in another thread:

That said, something interesting regarding console power is the evolution of car polycounts in the Gran Turismo games:

• Cars made for the PS1 games had a few hundred polygons
• Cars made for the PS2 had a few thousand polygons
• "Premium" cars in the PS3 games (ones that have new models instead of recycled PS2 ones) had a few hundred thousand polygons
• Cars in GT Sport and 7 have...several hundred thousand polygons

As a result, despite how GT Sport is supposed to be a purging of all the old car models regardless of their polycount, they've eventually brought back various PS3 car models in content updates for it and 7 since the differences in their car models aren't as substantial anymore.

 

[SharkLord]

Not to mention that VR games have to be rendered with extremely high resolutions and framerates while rendering the game on 2 screens in order to reduce motion sickness, so if you want your game to have VR support, it can't really have a higher polycount than PS4 games did.

Here's something else regarding graphics plateauing I posted in another thread:

I always dial back to this image because it really is just like that. At a certain point you just can't tell the difference

 

[Perkilator]

Do you think Nintendo could do a successful digital deluxe model (i.e. allowing anyone who orders it to play the game three days ahead of the official release date)?

 

[Quillion]

“Graphical upgrades” are probably one of the last things the industry should be focusing on right now

I think the next Nintendo console SHOULD have a "strong" graphical upgrade by all means.

...but not to the point where it reaches the impractical levels of the PS5 and Xbox Series (and especially NOT the level of the PS5 Pro). Considering many developers are targeting a PS4/XBone level of fidelity, I think that's a good sweet spot.

The real upgrades are processing power.

I'm sure Nintendo will prioritize that route, but IIRC, processing power is much harder to utilize than more graphics-oriented upgrades. Graphics are easily scalable as they are now, but using processing power requires deep, technical knowledge of optimization.

So it might still lightly deter third-party devs, but as long as Nintendo downporting remains a viable business, maybe it could still work.

 

[SharkLord]

I think the next Nintendo console SHOULD have a "strong" graphical upgrade by all means.

...but not to the point where it reaches the impractical levels of the PS5 and Xbox Series (and especially NOT the level of the PS5 Pro). Considering many developers are targeting a PS4/XBone level of fidelity, I think that's a good sweet spot.



I'm sure Nintendo will prioritize that route, but IIRC, processing power is much harder to utilize than more graphics-oriented upgrades. Graphics are easily scalable as they are now, but using processing power requires deep, technical knowledge of optimization.

So it might still lightly deter third-party devs, but as long as Nintendo downporting remains a viable business, maybe it could still work.

Yeah, current rumors are that the Switch 2 will be around PS4/PS4 Pro levels, which is probably the last big graphical upgrade they can manage. Most 3rd-parties make games around that level, but not many games really need the graphical power of the ninth generation. Maybe it's because those sorts of games just take too much resources to make, so there's only ever so many that can be made at a time

 

[Perkilator]

I think even as a dumb teenager whose grasp of quality hadn’t developed yet, I subconsciously knew that 2015-2016 was the worst time to be a Nintendo fan.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think even as a dumb teenager whose grasp of quality hadn’t developed yet, I subconsciously knew that 2015-2016 was the worst time to be a Nintendo fan.

I think everyone could feel those were dark times.

Even if you like everything they made, there was a huge drought.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

That 2015-2016 period specifically stood out because even previous shaky periods of Nintendo had the passion of the hardcore audience and/or the promise of something stronger coming in the future. The N64 had its software droughts but it felt like cutting age technology and there was a sense it was building a 3D foundation that future hardware could improve on. The Gamecube was Nintendo being on the wrong side of a cultural zeitgeist in gaming, but the games that were there immensely pleased the younger fanbase and the handheld halves of that generation (GBA and DS) had consistently great output.

Latter era Wii U was troubling because there wasn't really anything to mitigate just how of step Nintendo felt. The 3DS was strong (arguably putting out of one its greatest titles in Planet Robobot circa 2016) but the decline in excitement about in comparison the DS was obvious and much of the novelty with that kind of portable system was whittled away by the rise of smart phones. The Wii U was finally putting out games that put the touchscreen to good use (Splatoon & Mario Maker), but the damage was already done, and many viewed the console either as a mistake or as a wasted opportunity.

Good feelings or general hype rely on trust and the promise of potential and Nintendo at that point (to the general public) had lost much of both. The questionable gameplay experiments with big IP's, the Wii U droughts brought on by the company's struggles with HD, and an overall sense that they didn't understand audiences either casual (like the Wii did) or hardcore (like the Gamecube did)? It's no wonder that the major sentiment seemed to be malaise verging on doom & gloom about them because Nintendo hadn't really done anything consistently well enough to suggest otherwise.

Its why I view their E3 in 2015 as the nadir point for Nintendo, where so many of the games featured were emblematic of either spin-off with questionable mass appeals or clearly titles thrown out by a company attempting to fill out a schedule after badly misjudging their abilities in HD production and the tastes of the audience. 2016 may have been a weaker year, but the wheels of their renaissance were already turning at that point and the Breath of the Wild video at that year's E3 would be a taste of the new direction that would eventually take them back to the top again.

 

[Quillion]

Kinda makes me think though: the struggles with HD development were actually Nintendo being late to the party: they were felt the entire previous generation by Japanese devs and most mid-size devs in general.

Does this mean that Nintendo could potentially fall into the 9th gen's trap of the consoles being impractically powerful?

 

[SharkLord]

Kinda makes me think though: the struggles with HD development were actually Nintendo being late to the party: they were felt the entire previous generation by Japanese devs and most mid-size devs in general.

Does this mean that Nintendo could potentially fall into the 9th gen's trap of the consoles being impractically powerful?

They've gone on record stating that games will get longer and costlier to make as they get bigger, but even so, Nintendo's still continued to publish smaller, low-budget exclusives that don't back on selling a million copies day one. We got revivals for stuff like Another Code, Endless Ocean, and Famicom Detective Club, plus lower-end remasters like Metroid Prime and Kirby's Return to Dreamland to fill the gaps. With Sony and Microsoft, they kinda back everything on a select few gigaton triple-A games and not much else.

 

[Quillion]

I am incredibly unsurprised that Nintendo has finally announced their own music service/app.

Given their difficulties keeping network costs down while providing good service, their purges every big-name release, and the fact that most music publishing companies are notoriously corrupt, I can see that this move was the most "aligned" with Nintendo's business model.