The NEW Yoshi Matchup Thread V2|Week 10 - Zelda

[Deleted member]

Yes, because we all know that R.O.B.'s forward tilt is completely and totally unbeatable no matter what you do. All bow down to the mighty forward tilt!

Indeed, you may be sarcastic but i certainly am not.
*bows*

 

[Sharky]

Robs ftilt beats every one of our aerials. =( I think =P

Poor yoshi.

If you make an aerial approach into an f-tilt, then you're approaching all wrong lolol. It's called fast-falling. >_>

Yoshi outcamps R.O.B. during R.O.B.'s "down time" between projectiles. Gyro's are easy to handle, especially once you see enough of his glide tosses to determine which ones he'll do. Once you get him in the air, it's so easy to juggle him with eggs and aerials, it's hilarious. I'll write more later.

 

[Shiri]

So, let's talk about this for a second. Yoshi's camping and now R.O.B.'s approaching.

Stop. Right here.

Someone tell me they see what's wrong with this picture.

Ready? Let's assume that yes, Yoshi is indeed camping.

Guess what? R.O.B. won't approach. He'll start camping back, LOL!

Get that ho a tent, he's going to be toasting smores for a while with anybody who tries to outcamp him, ROFLLLL!

Granted his forward tilt is a very fast move (and is extremely good overall), but he's still got to stop for a few frames every time in order to use it. This, coupled with the fact that Yoshi is about a bajillion times more mobile than R.O.B. (specifically in the air) means that if R.O.B. is just approaching using forward tilt (and possibly the laser), he's not going to catch up with Yoshi, and is going to get hit with a LOT of eggs.

Hm. I can see where all the parts of your equation for success are coming from.

They just don't add up, however. Yoshi is more mobile than R.O.B., yes. R.O.B. does have a hard time catching up with just forward tilt and laser, yes. R.O.B. will get hit with eggs if he doesn't move very slowly (outside of powershielding), yes. Unfortunately, these ideas (as accurate as they may be independently) are being strung together in a fashion that makes it look like Yoshi can run, avoid forward tilts, lasers, and egg R.O.B. back at the same time with very little personal risk when that's just not the case. Especially with eggs, you either have to stay grounded, which leaves room for any character to dash in, or jump, which leaves you at the mercy of momentum, even if you direction switch in mid-air.

And its not like ROB can keep throwing lazers at you
he needs time to recharge them

1.5 seconds.

he can throw a big one then he throws very tiny ones that dont make you flinch or nothing

in that time you can eggspam him pretty easily

...

I'm going to refrain from putting what I was originally thinking, but I'll just say that this is incorrect. All varying states of R.O.B.'s laser (except for the absolute minimum power one, which isn't even a laser at that point) make every character flinch and is extremely fast and accurate. You may never have been powershield-laser'd before.

It's not fun.

 

[Ryusuta]

Stop. Right here.

Someone tell me they see what's wrong with this picture.

Ready? Let's assume that yes, Yoshi is indeed camping.

Guess what? R.O.B. won't approach. He'll start camping back, LOL!

Instead of being in such a rush to contradict me, why don't you actually look at my statement IN CONTEXT? That would do wonders for you, it really would.

Yoshi is holding R.O.B.'s gyro in this scenario. R.O.B. can't effectively camp against Yoshi with JUST his laser. He has to approach in this scenario. Next time read the ENTIRE conversation instead of just what you choose to observe.

Especially with eggs, you either have to stay grounded, which leaves room for any character to dash in, or jump, which leaves you at the mercy of momentum, even if you direction switch in mid-air.

You're assuming I'm always throwing eggs directly at him, and should know better. When R.O.B. is moving toward you, he's a LOT more limited than Yoshi's eggs are. And this is where playing your opponent's character more than you play your own in a given match takes precedence.

Is the R.O.B. player likely to start rushing in? Throw the eggs so they come up short. Does he take to the air? Throw them above him. Is he more likely to sit in one place powershielding? Change your timing to throw his off. In all three of those scenarios, which are logically his only three options, Yoshi is at a lot less risk of taking damage than R.O.B. is. And again, even if R.O.B. does catch up, he has absolutely NOTHING to ensure that Yoshi stays cornered up close outside of perhaps a tilt lock against a wall on some CP stages.

 

[Deleted member]

Why cant rob outcamp? Lazer, powershield egg, lazer, powershield egg. Hell he doesnt even need to powershield.

Frankly, yoshi cant outcamp rob at all, no matter what the scenario.

 

[Poltergust]

OK, let's assume that we can't out-camp R.O.B.. How can he out-camp us? It'll just be:

Egg -> R.O.B. shields (or dodges) -> Laser -> Yoshi shields (or dodges) -> Egg -> ...

If that's the case then both characters' camping games would come to an impasse. One character has to approach the other.

Of course, this is all based on the assumption that Yoshi can't out-camp R.O.B., which I firmly believes he does.

 

[Tidycats29]

Why cant rob outcamp? Lazer, powershield egg, lazer, powershield egg. Hell he doesnt even need to powershield.

Frankly, yoshi cant outcamp rob at all, no matter what the scenario.

He can do exactly what you said
but the laser he throws continuesly<--- spelled wrong XP
as you said is so weak it barelly makes yoshi flinch and if so its little
you can get the egg fast still

 

[SOVAman]

OK, let's assume that we can't out-camp R.O.B.. How can he out-camp us? It'll just be:

Egg -> R.O.B. shields (or dodges) -> Laser -> Yoshi shields (or dodges) -> Egg -> ...

If that's the case then both characters' camping games would come to an impasse. One character has to approach the other.

Of course, this is all based on the assumption that Yoshi can't out-camp R.O.B., which I firmly believes he does.

Yoshi's shield lol even then your in a pretty bad postion cuz you can't jump out of your shield so your still in a grounded position which makes it easier for ROB


Also eggs are too laggy even if you throw in egg the second you throw that egg you will get lasered and ROB has enough time to shield.

 

[Poltergust]

I said "shields (or dodges)." >_>

Are people even paying attention to what I'm saying? =(

 

[Shiri]

We're paying attention; we just don't buy it.

If you look at it from any angle: statistically or situationally, it's hard for us to swallow that Yoshi can outcamp R.O.B. when Yoshi has one (relatively) slow projectile that he has to drop invulnerability for and R.O.B. has two projectiles, once chargeable and one on a 1.5 second timer, and the means to still retain massive amounts of invulnerability by abusing the ledge.

All the talk about evasion or shielding or running is great. It's still not beating the camping. Like I've stated, in tournament play, R.O.B. doesn't have to KO you. He just has to stop you from hitting him. Once we get inside and get our hits in, I will tell you more than any other here that Yoshi can beat R.O.B. silly with the rapestick, but when our distance isn't closed, it's heck-and-a-half to not eat up 50% in chip damage alone.

I'm not beyond convincing and I'm not purposely trying to contradict you, but I honestly am not buying it and this comes from some pretty decent tournament experience locally and through some travel.

 

[Tidycats29]

We're paying attention; we just don't buy it.

If you look at it from any angle: statistically or situationally, it's hard for us to swallow that Yoshi can outcamp R.O.B. when Yoshi has one (relatively) slow projectile that he has to drop invulnerability for and R.O.B. has two projectiles, once chargeable and one on a 1.5 second timer, and the means to still retain massive amounts of invulnerability by abusing the ledge.

All the talk about evasion or shielding or running is great. It's still not beating the camping. Like I've stated, in tournament play, R.O.B. doesn't have to KO you. He just has to stop you from hitting him. Once we get inside and get our hits in, I will tell you more than any other here that Yoshi can beat R.O.B. silly with the rapestick, but when our distance isn't closed, it's heck-and-a-half to not eat up 50% in chip damage alone.

I'm not beyond convincing and I'm not purposely trying to contradict you, but I honestly am not buying it and this comes from some pretty decent tournament experience locally and through some travel.

Ok but...

once they throw the gyro and leave it lets say in middle of field or better yet like people have said
catch it

then they only have the laser which you can outspam

and its not like(if gyro is gone) ROB can charge gyro while he is being bombarded by eggs

 

[bigman40]

Actually, I find the out-camping thing false. Think about it. Since ROB doesn't need to approach, he's going to spam you. So you take his Gyro....So what? His lazer is quick enough to where as all he has to do is watch you pull back to throw an egg, then he'll lazer you AND shield the egg due to the low lag time. You think you can still shield the lazer? He can ledge camp to dodge your egg AND lazer you at the same time.

 

[Mmac]

Maybe we should get some ROB's in here

 

[Ryusuta]

Not a bad idea. It might be good to get their perspective on things.

R.O.B. is an extremely popular tournament character here in the southwest region, so I've played quite a few of them and have vastly different experiences against these attacks than some of the other Yoshis here (and the same experience as other Yoshis).

Of course, I'm beginning to think that this is going to be the case no matter what character we talk about.

 

[Shiri]

This is the blessing and curse of our little group, it seems. x_x;

 

[PRiDE]

Yoshi out camp's Rob in the air.
On the ground side step, be patient, and wait for him to make a mistake.. It is usually fairly obvious when he is about to laser.. .Or counter with Lylat, which seems to force Rob not to camp due to the curves. STAY away from stages that have HUGE and long platforms in the middle (yoshis island, halberd) he will just pitch up tent under neath it and NOT move, and he doesn't have) Robs best position against us is under a platform.. Exterminate him from his home and approach from above..

All I can think of...

 

[Tidycats29]

I think to help match up descriptions
i think you should add what stage is good against a certain character Mmac
its small and neat info

 

[YoshiIslander77z]

well i dont feel like finding the post that says robs ftilt is broken but ROB's d tilt is alot better then ftil to my knowledge, also lazers take 5 seconds to charge and recharging booster is 1.5. we really know much about rob so i made a post for robs to come here

 

[Deleted member]

Robs ftilt has godly range and comes out and ends fast, and it has mean priority. Its a good move, it ***** yoshi because of his bad shield.

 

[GwJ]

Alright, let's hear it for the first ROB in here! Yay.

Alright, on the basis of projectiles, ROB has Yoshi hands down. Yoshi's one projectile is pretty slow and easily shielded/powershielded. ROB can easily charge his gyro, fire lazer, shoot gyro, fire lazer again, and possibly charge the gyro again depending on what your opponent did to handle it.

However, in close combat, Yoshi's got ROB beat. Yoshi can get his moves out fast. ROB can also, but his attacks don't really have much knockback and don't KO, except for his DSmash at high percentages.

Recovery-wise, ROB has the lead. While Yoshi has invincibility frames during his double-jump, if ROB waits, he can just knock him back in Yoshi messes up.

I'd say this matchup is in ROB's favor, 60-40

 

[Poltergust]

Recovery-wise, ROB has the lead. While Yoshi has invincibility frames during his double-jump, if ROB waits, he can just knock him back in Yoshi messes up.

First off, let me take this time that Yoshi should NOT rely on his heavy-armor (not invincibility) frames in any situation unless you are meaning to take a hit and counter.

Anyways, this point is questionable. I mean, their is no doubting that R.O.B. has one of the best recoveries in the game, but the main problem is that he can't air-dodge during it.

OK, let's go through each situation for R.O.B. to recover:

R.O.B. recovers low - This is a bad choice to use because of our d-air, which (if I remember correctly) beats out your u-air. R.O.B. will likely still be able to recover, but not without taking quite a lot of damage.

R.O.B. recovers mid - Most likely the best choice for recovering because we can only hit you with eggs. Your f-air is too good, but it can't beat out the eggs. Still, you'll take the least amount of damage out of any choice. However, you have to be wary if we try to do a rising n-air or u-air on you, which you can't really avoid due to a lack of an air-dodge.

R.O.B. recovers high - Worst choice for R.O.B.. Being that we can actually easily juggle you, this move is suicide. And if you were hit far enough that you could recover high, then a u-air would most likely finish you off. And u-airs are easy to hit R.O.B. with, too.

R.O.B. recovers under the stage - Actually, not much we can do here unless we predicted it. You'll be in great danger if we actually do because it puts you in a tight spot with very low fuel.

That's my interpretation of how R.O.B. recovers. Take of it what you will... or however the phrase goes.

 

[Ryusuta]

I'm inclined to agree with Poltergust about the recovery. Without putting too fine a point on it, about 99% of people don't really know how Yoshi recovers, and pretty much always make the exact same mistakes you're making in trying to intercept him.

The are characters that can give Yoshi's recovery some trouble (nothing GIGANTIC, mind you, but trouble nonetheless). R.O.B. is not one of those characters. At worst, we might take a laser to the face.

We certainly wouldn't rely on our armor to aid in our recovery (in ANY situation, really). Generally speaking, Yoshi can recovery at absolutely any time and from absolutely any angle. His movement speed also massacres R.O.B.'s. You go out and chase us, we'll come in above you and/or air dodge through you. You fake a chase and/or wait, we'll move right past you. And don't even bother trying to spike us. I've dropped WAY too many R.O.B.s that thought they could by intercepting them with a forward air on my way back. Your safest option is to try and peg us with a laser and hit us out of the dodge, but this can be anticipated, too.

R.O.B. also has the same recovery options in theory (and is one of the best characters in the game when it comes to preventing chasers from coming after them), but the only practical one against Yoshi is coming straight in, making his return predictable, and therefore less versatile. As Poltergust said, if you come in low, expect to be chased, since your projectiles won't help you at that angle. If you come in high, expect to get pelted by three or four eggs at least as you make your way back.

 

[GwJ]

R.O.B. recovers low - This is a bad choice to use because of our d-air, which (if I remember correctly) beats out your u-air. R.O.B. will likely still be able to recover, but not without taking quite a lot of damage.

Very risky. ROB can Up-B right out of nearly any attack and can stage spike you unless you're on Halberd, Delfino, or a stage of that sort.

R.O.B. recovers high - Worst choice for R.O.B.. Being that we can actually easily juggle you, this move is suicide. And if you were hit far enough that you could recover high, then a u-air would most likely finish you off. And u-airs are easy to hit R.O.B. with, too.

I disagree with the 'it's suicide' thing. You'll get one hit in if we're not careful. After that, we can get out of your attacks with air dodges and Bairs.

Generally speaking, Yoshi can recovery at absolutely any time and from absolutely any angle

Very generally. Although he can come from 'any angle', he's always coming from a diagonal of lower-left to upper-right, unless you've used your double jump and he's just "gliding" to the right. Reverse these if he's on the right side of the stage. It's very predictable. ROB on the other hand can literally come from any angle, and refer to the beginning of the post for recovering.

You fake a chase and/or wait, we'll move right past you.

ROB doesn't approach. Usually. I think we've all agreed that ROB outcamps Yoshi. ROB just about never "waits" for his opponent to make a move.

but the only practical one against Yoshi is coming straight in, making his return predictable, and therefore less versatile.

Sort of. ROB can WoP in making your only option to use eggs, which you'll probably just score a few hits in if we're not careful.

 

[stingers]

The only yoshi I've ever played, I 3 stocked. So uh...lets see here.

ROB v Yoshi is probably 7-3 ROB. This is heavily stacked against you guys. ROB outranges you, is one of the few characters that can easily gimp your recovery, and doesn't even have to get anywhere near you to kill you, and you're slow and your only projectile is predictable as hell and not even very strong. So, yeah...uphill battle.

I'd definitely work on keeping the match up-close against ROB, because from afar, you stand no chance. At all. I believe your Side-B is out-prioritized by our laser, so I'd never use that at all (dunno if it's even a popular Yoshi move, like I said, I've only ever played 1 Yoshi and it was awhile ago). Focus on getting ROB directly above you, because our only options are Dair and Nair, which are both relatively slow and pretty **** hard to hit with: a yoshi can chain us easily with eggs and that amazing uair (does that kill at like 85%? seriously wtf sakurai). Bair would probably be your best approach, because it has good range and multiple hits would be a godsend against us (our shield sucks). Watch out for sidestep though, because a Yoshi will always be dsmashed .

Don't bother edgeguarding us. Really, don't. You'll probably die instead.

 

[Tidycats29]

The only yoshi I've ever played, I 3 stocked. So uh...lets see here.

ROB v Yoshi is probably 7-3 ROB. This is heavily stacked against you guys. ROB outranges you, is one of the few characters that can easily gimp your recovery, and doesn't even have to get anywhere near you to kill you, and you're slow and your only projectile is predictable as hell and not even very strong. So, yeah...uphill battle.

I'd definitely work on keeping the match up-close against ROB, because from afar, you stand no chance. At all. I believe your Side-B is out-prioritized by our laser, so I'd never use that at all (dunno if it's even a popular Yoshi move, like I said, I've only ever played 1 Yoshi and it was awhile ago). Focus on getting ROB directly above you, because our only options are Dair and Nair, which are both relatively slow and pretty **** hard to hit with: a yoshi can chain us easily with eggs and that amazing uair (does that kill at like 85%? seriously wtf sakurai). Bair would probably be your best approach, because it has good range and multiple hits would be a godsend against us (our shield sucks). Watch out for sidestep though, because a Yoshi will always be dsmashed .

Don't bother edgeguarding us. Really, don't. You'll probably die instead.

So you lack experience against yoshi
so you barely know the match up

well honestly i would get experience against a match up before posting IMO

I'll gladly brawl you if you want so you can know match up better possibly then input your opinion on this matter

 

[Poltergust]

Very risky. ROB can Up-B right out of nearly any attack and can stage spike you unless you're on Halberd, Delfino, or a stage of that sort.

Doubtful. Yoshi has practically 0 ending-lag on his d-air, so we can double-jump to air-dodge immediately. We can also stage-spike you with our b-air and n-air.

I disagree with the 'it's suicide' thing. You'll get one hit in if we're not careful. After that, we can get out of your attacks with air dodges and Bairs.

OK, let's be realistic here. If we manage to knock you back far enough that you can recover high, then a u-air WILL finish you off. You are better off recovering from another angle.

I'll let Sir 0rion deal with his points...

 

[Poltergust]

So you lack experience against yoshi
so you barely know the match up

well honestly i would get experience against a match up before posting IMO

I'll gladly brawl you if you want so you can know match up better possibly then input your opinion on this matter

So would I. You must gain more knowledge about the match-up if you want to be seriously considered here.

For example, did you actually think that Egg Roll is viable move?

 

[Ryusuta]

Very generally. Although he can come from 'any angle', he's always coming from a diagonal of lower-left to upper-right, unless you've used your double jump and he's just "gliding" to the right. Reverse these if he's on the right side of the stage. It's very predictable. ROB on the other hand can literally come from any angle, and refer to the beginning of the post for recovering.

Wrong. And this is why most people don't know how Yoshi recovers. Oftentimes, Yoshi doesn't even need his second jump.

ROB doesn't approach. Usually. I think we've all agreed that ROB outcamps Yoshi.

I never agreed to that, nor did about two or three other people on this topic.

ROB just about never "waits" for his opponent to make a move.

That's a direct contradiction.

Sort of. ROB can WoP in making your only option to use eggs, which you'll probably just score a few hits in if we're not careful.

R.O.B. doesn't WoP Yoshi effectively, especially not air-to-air.

The only yoshi I've ever played, I 3 stocked. So uh...lets see here.

Anecdotal evidence for the win, right?

is one of the few characters that can easily gimp your recovery

R.O.B. won't do anything to gimp an intelligent Yoshi. Period.

and doesn't even have to get anywhere near you to kill you,

R.O.B. doesn't HAVE decent killing options against Yoshi, let alone at a distance.

and you're slow

SLOW!? We have nearly DOUBLE your movement speed in the air, and are also much quicker than you on the ground.

and your only projectile is predictable as hell and not even very strong.

How do you figure it's predictable?

I believe your Side-B is out-prioritized by our laser, so I'd never use that at all (dunno if it's even a popular Yoshi move, like I said, I've only ever played 1 Yoshi and it was awhile ago).

It just goes to show how crappy that Yoshi was. Yoshi players almost NEVER use our side B. R.O.B.'s side B sucks pretty badly, too, but we know that it's not factored into the match-up, because a decent R.O.B. probably won't be using it.

Don't bother edgeguarding us. Really, don't. You'll probably die instead.

Uh, yeah... NO.

 

[Mmac]

Just ignore stingers. If he has little to no experience, then he shouldn't have a right to discuss so

 

[soloSHADOWROB]

I havent played a good Yoshi enough to say who has the advantage or not.
But heres what I see if I picture the fight.
Yoshis advantages....
*Yoshi's eggs are obnoxious, although ROB can shoot laser the egg will still come and either hit you or causing you to shield and mess up your momentum.
*Yoshi's DAir can eat your shield and since ROB's hitbox is big he can get shield poked for little damage.
*Yoshi can kill ROB early with his U-Air, it is extremely powerful , just by judgment I believe it can kill around 90%-105%.
*Double B-Air works great and can keep ROB away pretty well.
*He can really mess up ROB's recovery, the best thing ROB can do is recover from the middle. If you try to recover low Yoshi can do one of 2 things, he can Fair spike you or Dair you. If ROB tries to recover high i think that can be one of Yoshi's long dreams, Uair works great high or low %. If hes low % he can juggle him really well, one of ROBs biggest weakness is being above a character especially a character with a good Uair or he can kill him off the top depending on the %. If he recovers from the middle he would have to deal with the Eggs but its better then dieing and if a ROB player is able to react he can cancel his Up-B and AD (which sometimes fails) or something else.
*Yoshi has heavy armor frames during his second jump and can use that to his advantages if used correctly.
**I THINK Yoshi can CG ROB.

ROB's advantages......
*ROB does way better up close then trying to actually camp Yoshi with projectiles. I think ROB has a better chance Perfect Shielding the eggs and causing little damage with laser and gyros but can approach well with constant F-Tilt and D-Tilt.
*ROB's F & D-Tilt beat Yoshi's moves.
*Yoshi's shield game sucks, Im pretty sure one of the best things to do is perfect shield any move ROB throws at your and then Neutral A him away. Other then that ROB's frame rate is that much faster then Yoshi so ROB can but alot of pressure.
*Although Yoshi hs heavy armor frames during his second jump recovery a ROB can time it so he catches him right at the end of it. Or if the Yoshi recovers directly under the stage ROB can grab release (without hitting him) so his only option is to use his eggs which you can prolly beat with a fair (cuz it would come out faster). Theres various options to this just mind-game the Yoshi player.
*D-Smash ***** Yoshi's shield.

Cant really think of anything else thats as far as what I can just imagine in a fight against a good Yoshi.
Hope I helped in some way.
=]
Oh and I cant decide the match up....let me know and Ill see if I agree or who I agree with the most.

 

[Poltergust]

soloSHADOWROB, you have a good synopsis but there are a few things that I want to point out:

- PAY ATTENTION TO THIS STATEMENT SO THAT I DON'T HAVE TO REPEAT MYSELF YET AGAIN: If Yoshis are using their heavy-armor in their double-jump, THEN THEY ARE DOING IT WRONG. Yoshi should ALWAYS either air-dodge or attack during their double-jump. And if we air-dodge, then you can't grab us out of it, either.

- Yoshi does not have a chain-grab on R.O.B., unfortunately. Eggs can still present a problem on grab-release, though.

- Yoshi should rarely shield. We usually spot-dodge to avoid attacks, then react with a quick attack. But you are right with Yoshi's out-of-shield options sucking.

- How exactly would d-smash own Yoshi's shield? Seeing that our shield can't be poked, I can't understand what you mean here...

 

[Dekar173]

Well, in order for the Yoshi-ROB matchup to ever approach even, the Yoshi most certainly needs to know how to DJTC (Yoshi's glide toss), and have it mastered.

If they haven't even mastered that, they are going to have quite a bit of trouble handling the gyro and taking whatever stage they're fighting on into their own control.


ROB's dsmash doesn't have to poke the shield to punish the yoshi, as any yoshi worth his marbles (excuse my use of a phrase older than all of us and our mothers combined) abuses spotdodges rather than their sluggish shield.

As for the flaming that occurred against stingers... Please grow up and stop assuming he doesn't know what he's talking about because he played against ONE yoshi that he actually took note of. He's been around since before Brawl, meaning he has played competitively for a while now, meaning he's not talking out of his ***, but rather trying to give helpful input for the match-up.

Also, know your place. Just because he's your main doesn't mean Yoshi has a good match-up here. Get over the fact that he's lower tier, and do something to change that, rather than trying to argue against his faults with lack of logic. Look at and embrace the faults, then find ways to fix or get around them.

A little note to let everyone know where the last comment came from: I main Ness. So don't start flaming me as a tier player. I'm just saying, get over your pride and accept the fact that not all (or even most) match-ups are going to be good.

 

[bigman40]

Well, in order for the Yoshi-ROB matchup to ever approach even, the Yoshi most certainly needs to know how to DJTC (Yoshi's glide toss), and have it mastered.

If they haven't even mastered that, they are going to have quite a bit of trouble handling the gyro and taking whatever stage they're fighting on into their own control.


ROB's dsmash doesn't have to poke the shield to punish the yoshi, as any yoshi worth his marbles (excuse my use of a phrase older than all of us and our mothers combined) abuses spotdodges rather than their sluggish shield.

As for the flaming that occurred against stingers... Please grow up and stop assuming he doesn't know what he's talking about because he played against ONE yoshi that he actually took note of. He's been around since before Brawl, meaning he has played competitively for a while now, meaning he's not talking out of his ***, but rather trying to give helpful input for the match-up.

Also, know your place. Just because he's your main doesn't mean Yoshi has a good match-up here. Get over the fact that he's lower tier, and do something to change that, rather than trying to argue against his faults with lack of logic. Look at and embrace the faults, then find ways to fix or get around them.

A little note to let everyone know where the last comment came from: I main Ness. So don't start flaming me as a tier player. I'm just saying, get over your pride and accept the fact that not all (or even most) match-ups are going to be good.

Taking note of ONE yoshi can change the difference between having good information, and bad information. Turns out that his information wasn't that good, seeing as how the Yoshi uses his Heavy armor to recover. It's been told over and over again that GOOD yoshis use DJAD to recover instead of the armor (unless they plan to counter their attack). No one is making fun of how long he's been here or any other ****. It's simply that he doesn't have the right experience. Whether or not the rest of the Yoshi players get annoyed (which I find a little more common now that a TON of people keep spreading bad information), don't group everyone as if it's gonna be that way everytime.

Just as you say we like to spotdodge, why can't we learn and use the shield effectively? We know that a Dsmash is going to come after a spotdodge roughly 80% of the time. Therefore, we know that shielding will have to be used more.

We know our place. Coming in and telling us something like that is rude. Most already know that this match isn't in Yoshi's favor, but it's not soo much that ROB can walk right past this match like it's cake.
Don't come flaming the Yoshi boards when YOU come in and talk incorrect ****. We know his faults. We know the correct placement he should be on the tier list, and we're trying to get some kind of results (hard to do with the stuff we got as of now, I.E. lack of tournament Yoshi players, etc.).

Edit: and BTW, The Yoshi mainers that are debating as of now, you all need to tone down some. Blocking out the only one who has little experience with a Yoshi (even though it wasn't good experience) doesn't mean that he's not credible to anything else that is mentioned. Don't get bent out of shape cause someone is misinformed. We shouldn't be getting like this anyway seeing as how a TON of people are seemingly misinformed and/or spreading incorrect information.

 

[Ryusuta]

ROB's dsmash doesn't have to poke the shield to punish the yoshi, as any yoshi worth his marbles (excuse my use of a phrase older than all of us and our mothers combined) abuses spotdodges rather than their sluggish shield.

If I saw a down smash coming, why on earth would I spot-dodge?

As for the flaming that occurred against stingers... Please grow up and stop assuming he doesn't know what he's talking about because he played against ONE yoshi that he actually took note of. He's been around since before Brawl, meaning he has played competitively for a while now, meaning he's not talking out of his ***, but rather trying to give helpful input for the match-up.

For the record, I just wanted to state that I didn't flame Stingers and addressed his points directly. I won't speak for anyone else, though.

Also, know your place. Just because he's your main doesn't mean Yoshi has a good match-up here. Get over the fact that he's lower tier, and do something to change that, rather than trying to argue against his faults with lack of logic. Look at and embrace the faults, then find ways to fix or get around them.

Okay, I have to admit that this particular strawman is REALLY beginning to piss me off. I am SICK of hearing it, and it's no more true this time around than it was the last 700 times someone has used it.

I'm more than willing to acknowledge Yoshi's bad match-ups. Zelda, Marth, Game & Watch, Lucario... all of them spell real trouble for Yoshi. This concession is NOT a difficult one to make. It's simple common sense that Yoshi doesn't have the upper hand on these fights.

You tell people not to pretend that bad match-ups are easier than they are, but what about the inverse? Just because a character is lower-tier doesn't AUTOMATICALLY make all of his match-ups bad.

There's also the very important fact that has been pretty well established by now: different Yoshi players have WIDELY different results due to the sheer variety of play styles and opponents Yoshi players have. This is why I try my best to throw anecdotal evidence out the window, since just because I do well against a character doesn't mean anyone else will, and vice versa.

Instead, it makes a lot more sense to approach this from a scenario-to-scenario basis. Given certain circumstances, factoring in characters, position, damage, move deterioration, and stage layout, who is more likely to be able to do what they're setting out to do? Sometimes it's Yoshi. Other times it's R.O.B. The same goes with any character.

The main problem is not everyone goes about going about fighting the same way given those circumstances, and this is where the elusive X factor comes in. Perhaps strategically speaking, given certain conditions, a player would gain the upper hand quicker with their character by approaching, but the player decides to camp a position instead. These potential strategies must ALSO be taken into account, and the options a player will likely select must be narrowed down according to the different damage and knockout potentials of each possible action. They must then be FURTHER categorized by individual player tendencies, which can't really be statistically represented under practical conditions and are subject to constant change. Therefore, it's actually quite possible that a player could constantly be LOSING in a scenario he should be making strides in due to this lack of foresight.

But then, some situations can warrant different choices with near equal benefits, and this is often the case in competitive fighting game scenarios. This is where observing player tendencies becomes that much MORE important. This can be directly likened to a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors. Is the player likely to constantly choose Scissors? Is the player likely to abuse his tilts? It's the same exact thing.

This is what is known as "video game metrics." It is a very sophisticated, in-depth process, and I have had legitimate practical experience with it for well over a decade. It does NOT guarantee that one situation always spells doom for someone, or that you can predict the outcome of a match from start to finish no matter what. It is a means to discover what is most likely to happen in a given situation, and what the potential results will be.

So, the next time you start in on this ad hominem bullcrap, actually take the time YOURSELF to consider that your opposition is making valid arguments.

 

[GwJ]

I don't know if you've moved on, but refer to 7:04 or so of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX65n-h8JFk&feature=related

Explanation of what we've been saying about Yoshi's recovery problem.

 

[soloSHADOWROB]

soloSHADOWROB, you have a good synopsis but there are a few things that I want to point out:

- PAY ATTENTION TO THIS STATEMENT SO THAT I DON'T HAVE TO REPEAT MYSELF YET AGAIN: If Yoshis are using their heavy-armor in their double-jump, THEN THEY ARE DOING IT WRONG. Yoshi should ALWAYS either air-dodge or attack during their double-jump. And if we air-dodge, then you can't grab us out of it, either.

- Yoshi does not have a chain-grab on R.O.B., unfortunately. Eggs can still present a problem on grab-release, though.

- Yoshi should rarely shield. We usually spot-dodge to avoid attacks, then react with a quick attack. But you are right with Yoshi's out-of-shield options sucking.

- How exactly would d-smash own Yoshi's shield? Seeing that our shield can't be poked, I can't understand what you mean here...

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabad I just put what I know of the match. Plus it makes it easier because now people can actually read up on both Yoshi and ROB without having the hassle of constantly scrolling up and down and going from page to page.

*Ok well heres the thing I see with the AD, because it can really only last for so long, you can probably pull it off the first few times against a ROB player (a smart one atleast will react differently and mind-game you). A B-air can catch a Yoshi who is ADing and if the B-air were to miss he can continue the pressure with a D-smash since it has no lag, it doesnt have to hit either it can just cause lots of pressure. As for attacks, Im pretty sure ROB's F-air can out-prioritize or atleast clash with Yoshi's. It causes damage to both but atleast it keeps the Yohis off stage.

*Thats good to know that Yoshi doesnt have a CG lol, but true eggs are a threat no matter what, Im not doubting that I know the potential of those eggs.

*Idk who exactly is faster because ROB's D-tilt, F-tilt, A-combo + D-smash come out quick and end fast too so he can react quick outta a character spot dodge. Remember ROB players love spot dodgers. If I see my opponent spot dodge Ill just charge my D-smash to catch him off guard and hit him or make him shield. D-tilt can continuously be spammed until ROB gets the hit or atleast the shield out. F-tilt has amazing range Yoshi would be forced to move away or move in, and then and A-combo after that is great because it is one of the quickest moves in the game. Even a B-air might work since it last so long so it can catch the end frames of Yoshi's spot dodge and hit him.
Yea Yoshi's shield game really does suck LMAO

*D-smash owns because Yoshi's shield game sucks, the move can come out so fast, a ROB player can just constantly smash the C-Stick down and cause alot of pressure. Yoshi can shield all of them until he gets pushed far away enough but by then the Yoshi fears to shield because the shield is so close to being broken. Or it can cause you to spot dodge which is what any ROB player would want you to do. Or even if you get caught in it, you cant really roll into it cause thats just a stupid move in the players part lol. But it pushes you away.

Its a battle of patience Im sure of, which is alot of ROB's match up. I have alot of patient fortunately =]
Im not trying to be hostile here either k
Im just giving my idea of what I would do in those situations.

 

[Ryusuta]

I don't know if you've moved on, but refer to 7:04 or so of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX65n-h8JFk&feature=related

Explanation of what we've been saying about Yoshi's recovery problem.

As is ALWAYS the case for the "victim" character in combo videos, that Yoshi doesn't in any way represent good Yoshis at all. No air dodging, no counterattacking... taking nothing away from Gimpy's legendary Sheik, even he would agree that that Yoshi was absolute garbage.

*D-smash owns because Yoshi's shield game sucks, the move can come out so fast, a ROB player can just constantly smash the C-Stick down and cause alot of pressure. Yoshi can shield all of them until he gets pushed far away enough but by then the Yoshi fears to shield because the shield is so close to being broken. Or it can cause you to spot dodge which is what any ROB player would want you to do. Or even if you get caught in it, you cant really roll into it cause thats just a stupid move in the players part lol. But it pushes you away.

Yoshi can roll away from the down smash. Believe me, I know R.O.B. players that live and breathe by this move. He can also occasionally spot-dodge into a Yoshi Bomb, though this isn't commonly applicable.

 

[stingers]

yoshi's aren't the friendliest bunch huh <_<

I even said that I've only played one yoshi before. And I didn't think Side B was a very oft-used move, thats why I provided that nice comment in the parenthesis

But uh...I'll just leave this to SSR I guess. He's a better ROB then me anyway

 

[Ryusuta]

Just wanted to point out again, Stinger, that I didn't say anything about you not having a valid observation to make. I for one am glad to have you input, as any extra perspective has the potential to be helpful.

You're right, though. There's been quite a bit of drama here as of late, and we even tend to snipe at each other quite often. Doesn't mean we don't love each other, though.

 

[GwJ]

Sir 0rion, in the video, if you look, the yoshi does try to attack. But in it's situation, it knew that it couldn't grab the ledge so it had to either attack or air dodge, which are both highly punishable.