The new top tier?

[Virusbluemage]

Really when you think about it half the cast is underrated, whens the last time you fought a ness,ice climbers,zedla,kirby,pichu, or yoshi? i understand some people like roy(people that are well best desricbed as roy players, not an insult) or ice climbers(techical). But people should spread out a little like 2 or 3 people to play as a lot. It would help a lot of bottom/low tiers out

It would be really nice to see a lot of bottom/low tier players come out, but the problems is that not only are these characters not as good, but their metagame is horribly developed so it kinda turns people off from using them, as they don't believe they'll get far with them. Even for mid-tier characters you may notice that their has usually been only one or two notable players using them well at a given time(Hugs, Luiga Ka Master, Kage, Bum, ect) it takes skill and dedication to use a bottom tier charter well, and that's hard to find in someone who doesn't just take the easy road and play a high tier character.

As for advancing Metagame how about Luigi? It's a ****ing shame Ka Master seems to be retired, he did some amazing things with Luigi. Players like Pakman and Eddie Mexico are good, but they aren't spectacular. Luigi has very powerful areal attacks and people are finding more and more ways to Sweetspot his UP B mid battle, I think we if more players were to main hew could place very high in big tournaments(like Ka Master managed to do)

 

[Stratford]

Hey I have a great idea for the new top tier.

I call it: the old top tier.

Fox
Falco

I'm so clever.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Wtf the easy road are people really that big of p*****s? Wow that's bad. yeah luigi makes me think of falcon from his fast wavedash. Really I can't understand why anyone wouldn't try, it's beyond my understanding.

I,m someone who trys. I mean I picked pichu over pikachu before I know he hurt himself of he was light or i understood range. I found it all out I was like wow I guess he isn't that great but I didn't quit. Heck I,ve found flaws people don't kow about for pichu and I still play and people tell me he is useless and i disargee even if I know more flaws than them.

But I think the best way to encource the use of lower tiers is more low tier tourments. I heard from prosmashertim he uses pichu(he won) to them in Europe he did the all star fox combo video with fox.

But play as people because they are fun like I love fox's speed, I love yoshi's/falcon combos, I love how smooth marth is, I love pichu's mindgames and gameplay, I love how hard the ice climbers hard and etc

 

[Nø Ca$h]

it would be sweet to see some LT tournies.

the meta game of LT-BTs is pretty underdeveloped. there is a few who stand out,but it takes dedication. roy is hands down my favorite, but i dont even use him much anymore. i main marth now not because of his placing, but because of his potential. he is just alot more open ended the roy. if LT tournies show up, my roy will make an apearance...

 

[Virusbluemage]

it would be sweet to see some LT tournies.

the meta game of LT-BTs is pretty underdeveloped. there is a few who stand out,but it takes dedication. roy is hands down my favorite, but i dont even use him much anymore. i main marth now not because of his placing, but because of his potential. he is just alot more open ended the roy. if LT tournies show up, my roy will make an apearance...

I understand this, I also love Roy but I simply don't see a lot of potential in him. As soon as I get the game again I'll see if I can discover any new tricks with him, but for a low tier main I think Roy is a bad choice.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

I understand this, I also love Roy but I simply don't see a lot of potential in him. As soon as I get the game again I'll see if I can discover any new tricks with him, but for a low tier main I think Roy is a bad choice.

thats the thing. there is *nothing* to discover. and no amount of tricks can make him any better.

but remember, players arent limited. if you truly want to be good with roy, its possible. it just takes alot of integrity and perseverance.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

There are no more tricks? Master your mind and make it your weapon with the OLD tricks, you will fnd more if your mind is your weapon. The new tricks may be simple like a better way to approach or edge gaurd marth or a new tech. The truth is you are the limit, there is no perfect nor do you want there to be a perfect or for you to be the perfect because you can't get any better and the hope/fun you used to have will die.

I find new stuff all the time as pichu and ice climbers, like nana smash cancels or pichu mind tatics like new use for his sheild.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

i know what you mean, but its roy. a stereotype for roy players is being close minded. i rediscovered thundering for roy. any new tricks for roy wont change the meta

i recently posted a mario fire ball tech. melee is an unlimited game by its self. the thing is the mind is a personal limit. but the mind its self is unlimited. unlocking your own potential is the "getting better" that ppl(sometimes subconciously)aim for. im trying to get better, but i dont have much ppl to play. i got into melee pretty late.

 

[Virusbluemage]

I don't agree that new tricks won't change the meta, new tricks are pretty much the only thing that can change a meta. I also disagree that a character's potential is unlimited, I simply do not see Roy having as muc potential as Marth, statistically he faisl in comparison to Marth too hard for this to be true(maybe I'm wrong about this); I want to devote myself into seeing what low teir characters can do that haven't been discovered.

When you consider things like Germ(I could use much better examples from the past but I'll stick with the most recent) placing 25th at Genesis using only Link you have to wonder how much higher he could have placed if Link's metagame was more developed, you then have to wonder how high said link could have placed if Link's metagame were more developed and an even better player than Germ was using him. I think it is entirely possible for a low/mid-teir main to place in the top 10 at Rom2 or Pound 4.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

i said character was limited, mind was unlimited. and yes, germ has a ****load of exp.

anyone notice good LT/BT mains second a HT/TT? neo used marth/shiek, germ uses falco, axe uses falco, taj uses marth ect.

i doubt a random LT can place that high. maybe in a couple of more big tournies, but there isnt any currently. its entirely possible tho.

 

[Virusbluemage]

I feel Chu could place pretty high if he went only Pikachu.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

im surprised canada hasnt taken over this thread.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

hmm your right about roy being limited but again the charcters can only go so far without any mind related stuff.marth is chaon throw edge gaurd or f-smashing everything. ice climbers walk up for a grab, fox's runs into you and waveshines you.

Everyone can incudle dding/wding to be hard to predict why can do thing the wouldn't make snents to a computer like run around and use side-B out of your DD as pichu. it wasn't your best move to use and there is no flollow up. because if you become predictable they could punish you everytime.

Plus the fact germ does so well is funny isn't he one of or the only link to play like he does? And some low/bottom tiers could hold their own not saying win but hld their own that's one thing lower tier players are good at most people counter them but somehow they win. funny

 

[AprilShaw]

Even for mid-tier characters you may notice that their has usually been only one or two notable players using them well at a given time(Hugs, Luiga Ka Master, Kage, Bum, ect) it takes skill and dedication to use a bottom tier charter well, and that's hard to find in someone who doesn't just take the easy road and play a high tier character.

As for advancing Metagame how about Luigi? It's a ****ing shame Ka Master seems to be retired, he did some amazing things with Luigi. Players like Pakman and Eddie Mexico are good, but they aren't spectacular. Luigi has very powerful areal attacks and people are finding more and more ways to Sweetspot his UP B mid battle, I think we if more players were to main hew could place very high in big tournaments(like Ka Master managed to do)

This is a really stupid thing to say :\ there have been plenty of great Samus, Luigi, and Ganon players (DK I can't speak much for, I don't follow him lol).

17: Linguni - Ganondorf
17: Kage - Ganondorf
25: germ - Link
33: chad - Pikachu
33: Rock Crock - Ganondorf
33: Axe - Pikachu
33: Eddie Mexico - Luigi
33: iori - Mewtwo
33: dark mike - Samus
33: Ihavespaceballs - Samus
49: Pakman - Luigi
49: Sethlon - Roy
49: DJ Nintendo (Used Bowser/Mario I believe)

Not everyone had their character listed, but this is just from Genesis results. Obviously they won't be used as much as the top tiers, but imo the top tiers are more fun/less limited than lower tiers anyways. But saying that no one's helping those char's metagames other than the most known player is just dumb. That's like saying Ken and M2K are the only people who have developed Marth's metagame. Or saying that Isai is the only person to develop C.Falcon's game. The metagame as a whole is changing and not in a way that favors low tiers right now, which makes it harder for new players. But that doesn't mean people aren't trying to develop their character's game. It just means they have a lot more work to do.

Also fyi I picked my high tiers before I knew what the tier list was not everyone picks them because they're good.

Edit: Oh, and if you took low tier/mid tiers from now and went back 2 or 3 years, they'd be ******. But the top tier characters advance a lot faster than the lower tiers.

 

[Virusbluemage]

This is a really stupid thing to say :\ there have been plenty of great Samus, Luigi, and Ganon players (DK I can't speak much for, I don't follow him lol).

17: Linguni - Ganondorf
17: Kage - Ganondorf
25: germ - Link
33: chad - Pikachu
33: Rock Crock - Ganondorf
33: Axe - Pikachu
33: Eddie Mexico - Luigi
33: iori - Mewtwo
33: dark mike - Samus
33: Ihavespaceballs - Samus
49: Pakman - Luigi
49: Sethlon - Roy
49: DJ Nintendo (Used Bowser/Mario I believe)

Not everyone had their character listed, but this is just from Genesis results. Obviously they won't be used as much as the top tiers, but imo the top tiers are more fun/less limited than lower tiers anyways. But saying that no one's helping those char's metagames other than the most known player is just dumb. That's like saying Ken and M2K are the only people who have developed Marth's metagame. Or saying that Isai is the only person to develop C.Falcon's game. The metagame as a whole is changing and not in a way that favors low tiers right now, which makes it harder for new players. But that doesn't mean people aren't trying to develop their character's game. It just means they have a lot more work to do.

Also fyi I picked my high tiers before I knew what the tier list was not everyone picks them because they're good.

Edit: Oh, and if you took low tier/mid tiers from now and went back 2 or 3 years, they'd be ******. But the top tier characters advance a lot faster than the lower tiers.

You're using *** logic. Firestly you have to diffrentitate between good adn great, almost all the players you mentioned there particularly weren't notable outside of the fact that their using a low tier, I don't mean to sound like a jerk but Ihavespaceballs and Darkmike are just average players and THEY ARE NOT advancing the game of Samus. What have they done or are doing with Samus that we haven't seen Hugs do a million times before? Nothing!

Furthurmore in Luigi's case Ka Master is the only one who developed his metagame, keep in mind that Pakman has only very recently become a notable player and no-one ever heard of Eddie Mexico before Genesis, therefore my point still stands that Ka Master was the only improving Luigi. And I will completely stand by the point that the only persons who advanced Marth's metagame were Ken, Mew2king, Azen and Neo. What you fail to understand is that although there may have been other good Marth players out their, all they did was copy what had already been done(looking at you Taj); you looking at the metagame as one big thing is dumb, each character has their own metagame and the metagame for the characters in the top tier are changing while those in the lower tiers are stagnating.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

lol at IHSB being average.

 

[SDC]

And I will completely stand by the point that the only persons who advanced Marth's metagame were Ken, Mew2king, Azen and Neo. What you fail to understand is that although there may have been other good Marth players out their, all they did was copy what had already been done(looking at you Taj); you looking at the metagame as one big thing is dumb, each character has their own metagame and the metagame for the characters in the top tier are changing while those in the lower tiers are stagnating.

I'm just gonna touch on the Taj insult
If you actually watch Taj's marth, it's completely different from mew2king's and Ken's, it's a very unique style of marth. Ken was based around spacing (the original) Mew2king had an amazing gimp game, and Taj plays slower, more cognitive, a mindgamier marth. From what I've seen he relies more on punishing and reading then either of the styles that ken or m2k used. And if anyone's a copy, M2K's marth is very similar to Ken's, yes there are differences and each are unique, but M2K's is still more similar to ken then Taj is to either of them.

I'm trying not to sound like a butthurt mew2-usin tajfan lol, how'd I do?

 

[NES n00b]

Jack plays completely different than HugS and if you mean average compared to ALL (lol) those other Samus players, you are wrong.

 

[Virusbluemage]

I'm just gonna touch on the Taj insult
If you actually watch Taj's marth, it's completely different from mew2king's and Ken's, it's a very unique style of marth. Ken was based around spacing (the original) Mew2king had an amazing gimp game, and Taj plays slower, more cognitive, a mindgamier marth. From what I've seen he relies more on punishing and reading then either of the styles that ken or m2k used. And if anyone's a copy, M2K's marth is very similar to Ken's, yes there are differences and each are unique, but M2K's is still more similar to ken then Taj is to either of them.

I'm trying not to sound like a butthurt mew2-usin tajfan lol, how'd I do?

Nah, dude Taj is just doing what Azen but with less F-smashes, that's it. It seems like he plays a different game, but it only seems that way because he is playing a lot worse. He doesn't going for attacks as much because he can't make them work like the great Marths did. As for M2k playing like Ken, that's totally true but M2k developed almost all of Marth's new combos since Ken retired.

And a point of clarity about my Ihavespaceballs comment. I meant compared to the Smash scene torday he is just an average player, among other Samus players he is fantastic. When you compare him to a player like Hugs he really appears as nothing special.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

edit: lol nvm

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

HugS IS the Samus metagame. Until any other Samus player can consistently place like him, all the waveland tricks in the world don't matter.

 

[SDC]

Nah, dude Taj is just doing what Azen but with less F-smashes, that's it. It seems like he plays a different game, but it only seems that way because he is playing a lot worse. He doesn't going for attacks as much because he can't make them work like the great Marths didblablabla i just hate taj cuz im jealous that he's awesome and im not

That's all opinion dude, you can look at someone's style and say "he's worse then somebody else" but really he just has a different playstyle. If you don't like it, then that's fine for you, I'm not gonna judge.

 

[Virusbluemage]

That's all opinion dude, you can look at someone's style and say "he's worse then somebody else" but really he just has a different playstyle. If you don't like it, then that's fine for you, I'm not gonna judge.

Is your argument that Taj is as good as Azen or Mew2king? Because every one on these boards including Azen, Mew2king and even Taj will tell you that you are wrong. This is not my opinion, it is fact. Tournament rankings over and over again are clear proof of that.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

No what I think he's saying is that he disagrees with you that Taj's style is comparable to Azens.

Hey Virus, Have you ever been wrong?

 

[Virusbluemage]

HugS IS the Samus metagame. Until any other Samus player can consistently place like him, all the waveland tricks in the world don't matter.

That was my point from the begining. Only 1 player has been developing Samus, so her growth is going to remain stumped. If there was another player besides Hugs advancing Samus then we would be seeing Samus players(including Hugs) placing higher in tournaments than they are now. The samething applies for the entire cast of low and bottom tier characters.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Most people play different, I have a wierd fox, I have 3 basic modes
1. confused as F***- I will randomly attack things not thee shoot lasers not aiming
2.calm-I am on offense and defence not really trying TO to get combos and gimps just going with what I get, somewhat slow
3. crazy or ****-I am easily 4 times faster comobs flow, I pressure the F*** out of them I,m like rage machine.

I don't think many people play fox like that with 3 different ways of useing the same moves. and the smae can go for the marth players. I switch in and out of modes when needed in a random order

For marth you can
spam f-smash
space defencely
space offenfeively
pressure
gimps
mingame like smooth.
and bet there are more playsystles because I don't play as him much

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Somehow, in some way. ICG makes more sense than Virus.

 

[AXE 09]

taj doesn't merely just "copy" someone else's moves. taj is an amazing player, and actually playing him is very different from just watching.

it seems like pretty much every pro smasher comes up with origional ideas for their character. of course, you need your advanced moves. just because he wave dashes and l-cancels doesn't mean that he's just like every other marth, it's how you use them in every different situation.


hey ummm... everyone should check out my pika lol. click my sig por favor!

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Axe with that shameless plug.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I don't try to not make sence. so why would it be surprising or are you refering to the fact of what my veiws are of the tier list in general like the ice climbers COULD be much higher and other things

 

[Nø Ca$h]

@insane carzy guy: marths dont spam fsmashes. if they would, they would get punished. they spam a much safer move(fair). most of everyones theories are inconclusive. this thread needs cactus posting "false..... (explains)"

 

[NES n00b]

garble garble garble garble

Say WHHHAAATTTT?

 

[rhan]

That was my point from the begining. Only 1 player has been developing Samus, so her growth is going to remain stumped. If there was another player besides Hugs advancing Samus then we would be seeing Samus players(including Hugs) placing higher in tournaments than they are now. The samething applies for the entire cast of low and bottom tier characters.

Only problem with trying to boost the metagame for other characters that aren't high or top is that NO ONE is willing to play them or learn. Only the truely dedicated are willing to play these characters.

Everyone gravitates to which ever character's the best/easiest to play. *Cough*

Spoiler

Top Tiers and Jiggs

*/Cough*. I mean if I or another Young Link player was to come to Pound 4 and just go all Young Link and place 5th. I mean that's amazing but highly unrealistic. Why? Because other characters that have time spent on them because they're most easiest/popular.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

That was my point from the begining. Only 1 player has been developing Samus, so her growth is going to remain stumped. If there was another player besides Hugs advancing Samus then we would be seeing Samus players(including Hugs) placing higher in tournaments than they are now. The samething applies for the entire cast of low and bottom tier characters.

actually wes was around before HugS(or came around at relatively the same time) and was destroying all the East Coast.

so no, hugs isnt the only samus(esam WAS getting pretty good too but not on hugs/wes level)

Only problem with trying to boost the metagame for other characters that aren't high or top is that NO ONE is willing to play them or learn. Only the truely dedicated are willing to play these characters.

Everyone gravitates to which ever character's the best/easiest to play. *Cough*

Spoiler

Top Tiers and Jiggs

*/Cough*. I mean if I or another Young Link player was to come to Pound 4 and just go all Young Link and place 5th. I mean that's amazing but highly unrealistic. Why? Because other characters that have time spent on them because they're most easiest/popular.

yes we know blah blah blah.

you play a low tier so you have honor.

we know.

and lol at being easy.

theres a big differnce between being easy to play/popular(or in other words a "good character") and being hard to play/unpopular(a bad character).

so basically, yes good characters are played because theyre good and not bad.

(ps young link is not any harder/easier to play than any other bad character)

 

[joeplicate]

virus blue mage i kind of actually appreciate that you're keeping it up

maybe one day you will actually be a great debater, ruling melee discussion with an iron fist
i've seen a good amount of improvement, actually
now as soon as you get your facts straight (it takes time) you'll maybe be a great poster even

 

[SDC]

Is your argument that Taj is as good as Azen or Mew2king? Because every one on these boards including Azen, Mew2king and even Taj will tell you that you are wrong. This is not my opinion, it is fact. Tournament rankings over and over again are clear proof of that.

When did I ever say he was just as good? I said he was different. I'll bet you've never even seen Taj's marth lol. And if he puts the time into it, and plays his best, Taj's marth (and mew2 by the way) can go toe to toe with any of the great players. I'm not going to say "hez just az good" But I will say that when he plays in top form he more then holds his own against the best.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Dude...sean, if you hvaent noticed, theres no point in arguing with this guy

just...let it go.

 

[Virusbluemage]

Only problem with trying to boost the metagame for other characters that aren't high or top is that NO ONE is willing to play them or learn. Only the truely dedicated are willing to play these characters.

Everyone gravitates to which ever character's the best/easiest to play. *Cough*

Spoiler

Top Tiers and Jiggs

*/Cough*. I mean if I or another Young Link player was to come to Pound 4 and just go all Young Link and place 5th. I mean that's amazing but highly unrealistic. Why? Because other characters that have time spent on them because they're most easiest/popular.

I really don't think it's unrealistic for a low tier main to place top 10 in a national tournament. If Kage and Hugs can do it then why can't someone else do it using a slightly worse/under develop character? It just takes talent and hard work which unfortunately is something hard to find in someone willing to main a low/bottom tier character. It's too bad Skler retired, he has massive potential and his rate of improvement was amazing.

actually wes was around before HugS(or came around at relatively the same time) and was destroying all the East Coast.

so no, hugs isnt the only samus(esam WAS getting pretty good too but not on hugs/wes level)

Lol, Wes retired like 3 years ago. The metagame of other characters evolved and he couldn't handle it. Hugs kept going and grew leaps and bounds better than Wes ever got; so as far as the discussion is concerned Wes is irrelevant.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

LOL, get your facts straight kid.

wes was at a tourney i had in 07.

he placed 2nd behind lambchops and right above tipman

 

[Comrade]

Lol, Wes retired like 3 years ago.

LOL, get your facts straight kid.
wes was at a tourney i had in 07.

...You realize that was practically 3 years ago?....

just sayin