The New Tier List

[asianaussie]

I meant if the attack is laggy (eg. DK f-smash on the ground) or if the opponent can respond quickly - in the latter case, you might be punished during the grab animation.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

DK's running a is the worst move in any smash game. I can't think of any other move that has:

1. Virtually 0 combo ability
2. Set low knockback
3. A move with incredible end lag and beginning lag.

 

[Ownasaurus]

DK's running a is the worst move in any smash game. I can't think of any other move that has:

1. Virtually 0 combo ability
2. Set low knockback
3. A move with incredible end lag and beginning lag.

I always thought Melee Kirby's dash attack and throws were perhaps the worst moves in any smash game, but that's just me

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I always thought Melee Kirby's dash attack and throws were perhaps the worst moves in any smash game, but that's just me

at least kirby's running a can eventually kill in 64,

In terms of throws,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phVFKAxETlg

kirby rulz.

 

[DMoogle]

Someone told me that there's a combo that uses DK's dash attack (Prince's combo video, maybe?), but I haven't checked to see whether that's true or not.

 

[BRLNK88]

The ideal Kirby wouldn't have the spinny ball move at all.
His nair would be his uber-powerful sex kick, and his uair would be the flip kick.
And I'll always prefer his tri-kick fair over the sideways drill in 64.

 

[ballin4life]

Someone told me that there's a combo that uses DK's dash attack (Prince's combo video, maybe?), but I haven't checked to see whether that's true or not.

There is, it's dash attack into piranha plant in his all characters combo video

 

[SheerMadness]

practically anything, i can only parry if something is infront of me :S
unless its projectile

and btw im pretty sure you can parry grabs, or at least it changes your hitbox when doing so, i've found a few times that when spamming parry a few normally succesful falcon grabs got nothing

You can't grab parries. Which is why everyone who plays me is always asking me why their grabs aren't working.

And yah I would say that being able to parry while grabbing makes Yoshi's grab much better than Samus'. Even if you parry grab with Yoshi but mistime the parry the grab range will still get them a good bit of the time so you won't get punished.

 

[Darth Rancorous]

i feel that grabs that take longer to execute (Samus', Yoshi's, and Link's) work well in certain situations. For example, because Samus' grapple beam is the longest grab in the game, many opponents dont expect a grab when theyre so far away from Samus.

In addition, players that use these characters develop ways/set-up situations that would almost guarantee a grab. For example, like Koro mentioned above, Samus can fire her charged-up charge beam and follow up with a grab because of the hitstun that it produces

 

[DMoogle]

I feel like Yoshi has an option better than a grab 95% of the time he has a guaranteed grab, whereas with Samus, that's not the case at all.

 

[TANK64]

I feel like Yoshi has an option better than a grab 95% of the time he has a guaranteed grab, whereas with Samus, that's not the case at all.

good point

 

[NixxxoN]

Yeah samus grab isn't as bad as it seems. Same for link. Both have tools to make the grab better, while yoshi.... meh

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

^^^

As said. Good grabs in smash 64 can either kill (Falcon, Pikachu, Samus), are easy to set up (Ness, Mario, possibly Samus), or they combo (Falcon, Jiggs). Yoshi does neither of thee 3.

 

[Deleted member]

kirbys uair? dks running a?

kirby's up-air is an excellent comboing move. it's the key to comboing well with kirby no doubt beyond down-air up-tilt x 4. it's set knockback is too good

dk's running a

hmm

 

[Mew2King]

I disagree with the order of 5 though 10 (mainly the gap with Mario and Luigi) but then again I don't really play much anymore so I don't know how much my opinion counts now.

1-4, 11, and 12 are accurate imo

 

[Magik0722]

So how cloes are fox and pikachu, I've been thinking that fox may has what it takes to be #1

 

[asianaussie]

It's a mathcrafted tier list. Look at the chart in this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=241670

According to matchups, Pika beats everyone. Fox has a disadvantage to Pika.

WAIT LINK IS ABOVE LUIGI

WHAT

 

[dandan]

So how cloes are fox and pikachu, I've been thinking that fox may has what it takes to be #1

i think pikachu is the definitive #1. just matchup wise, pika does not have any bad matchup but fox does (pikachu on dreamland). fox's recovery is holding him back, and pikachu's is too good.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

So how cloes are fox and pikachu, I've been thinking that fox may has what it takes to be #1

In my eyes, Fox is number 1 on Hyrule, Pikachu is number 1 on Dreamland. But overall Pikachu has better matchup, Fox beats most other characters but the matchup's aren't nearly as bad (I think even Kirby has more completely broken matchups than Fox). I find some of this since the top player mains Pikachu.

It is overall easier to play as Pikachu. It's kinda like in ssbb (since it seems from your profile that you play brawl) that Diddy at a top competitive level is overall better than MK. It is just that many of the top people use MK.

 

[The Star King]

It's kinda like in ssbb (since it seems from your profile that you play brawl) that Diddy at a top competitive level is overall better than MK.

Correct if I'm wrong, but I thought Mew2King has been dominating with MK recently, including winning both MLGs.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Correct if I'm wrong, but I thought Mew2King has been dominating with MK recently, including winning both MLGs.

What I personally mean is:

in smash 64, Fox might be personally better than Pikachu, but the top people use Pikachu so he hasn't evolved fully. I find the same thing happened to Yoshi and ness for the longest time. People originally thought Ness was broken but then people started to space well. Yoshi has been recently found to be quite good with his parrying abilities. if people actually concentrated on Yoshi for even a short while (and not completely ignore Yoshi like Boom, Tigerbombz, and Isai), then Yoshi would be better.

Same thing happened in melee for the longest time. Jigglypuff at the list was in 6th I think. Everyone thought that the Marth/Jiggs matchup is unwinnable. people thought that ganondorf, Jiggs, and Peach were not going to win major tournaments until players like Kage, Armada, and Hbox/Mango came along. Jigglypuff has become a character in melee that reminds me of MK, incredibly difficult to space vs, a good camping character, a character that can only barely be comboed, and a character that kills very quickly. Mango beat M2K at Jiggs vs Math.

It is the same thing in brawl. people thought that MK and Snake were going to dominate every tournament. Then ADHD came along with Diddy and he is one of the few people with a winning record vs M2K. ADHD's only losses in major tournaments recently have been vs Ally as he says that he has a mental block whenever he faces that Snake or when he faces other good MK's.

Or the fact that Nick Riddle almost won MLG with the low High tier Zamus or the fact that Ice Climbers recently have been playing terrible.

or that DK for once won vs a D3 user in tournament when the matchup was originally considered 100-0 or 90-10. People actually said that it does not matter if King D3's short step chain grab was allowed since the other characters were so unviable that these characters did not matter (Then Boss and other Luigi's started winning tournament).

In other words: for people who are going to say TL;DR
It is since many characters haven't been fully exploited since the metagame is concentrated around a few specific characters in all 3 smash games.

 

[Darth Rancorous]

I agree with koro. And after all the trash talkin I did about jousuke, I'm gonna go ahead and say, yeah, just look at what he's done with Samus in smash 64

 

[ballin4life]

if people actually concentrated on Yoshi for even a short while (and not completely ignore Yoshi like Boom, Tigerbombz, and Isai), then Yoshi would be better.

LOL. I've played all 3 of their Yoshis and they are all very very good (as you might expect).

 

[BRLNK88]

I won't believe Isai even knows how to play Yoshi until I see it.

 

[rpotts]

he played yoshi yesterday on nears livestream. Lost to a japanese player, i think it was moyashi. Granted he had 9 frames...

 

[ciaza]

I think there was him playing was it Superboom on Nokabure's LMAO castle? Again though it's online and on an unofficial stage.

 

[Skrlx]

i dunno koro, i've recently started playing again and a lot of people have picked up yoshi.


oh and they're actually good

 

[SmasherLink]

Terrible. Link should be higher.

 

[t3h Icy]

No he shouldn't.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Terrible. Link should be higher.

Answer why? You're name along says why I need to ask.

Link has a terrible recovery, worst in the game with probably the wort recovery of any character in any smash game.

Link is by far the easiest character to combo as well except for DK. If Link is grabbed in the center of any stage by virtually everyone he is dead. If he is grabbed on the ledge, ledgehog and he is dead.

 

[P D]

Answer why? You're name along says why I need to ask.

Link has a terrible recovery, worst in the game with probably the wort recovery of any character in any smash game.

Link is by far the easiest character to combo as well except for DK. If Link is grabbed in the center of any stage by virtually everyone he is dead. If he is grabbed on the ledge, ledgehog and he is dead.

nesses recovery blows more

 

[The Good Doctor]

nesses recovery blows more

That's debatable.
Also Link will be forced off the stage more commonly and no matter how high he is he's probably a dead man

 

[dch111]

t3h Icy's response was appropriate and sufficient.

 

[ballin4life]

Falcon's recovery is worse than link's also imo

And Falcon/Link are easier to combo than DK

 

[asianaussie]

Is Link's double jump slower to start than Falcon's?

Also Link > Luigi on the matchup thread, does that mean Link > Luigi in the tier list (seeing as it's mathcraft after all)?

I went to that guy's site. If he thinks Pika is top, what's the barrier that stops him from seeing Kirby's position? I honestly can't think of one.

The qualities of the tier lists change, due to the fact the tier lists are based upon this wiki

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

DK's running a is the worst move in any smash game. I can't think of any other move that has:

1. Virtually 0 combo ability
2. Set low knockback
3. A move with incredible end lag and beginning lag.

DK's dash attack is amazing, especially when you manage to combo it into an utilt. You feel like some sort of smash god.

I raise you luigi's dash attack.

 

[walsh]

DK's dash attack is amazing, especially when you manage to combo it into an utilt. You feel like some sort of smash god.

I raise you luigi's dash attack.

This. DK's dash attack is great for catching people off-guard or using in the middle of a combo. Use sparingly.

Luigi's dash attack is also good at catching certain opponents off guard. Hint: Kirby is NOT one of them.

Basically you want to never use it against someone with a very powerful ground game, like kirby or fox who will just jab you and lol as he owns you.

 

[rpotts]

This. DK's dash attack is great for catching people off-guard or using in the middle of a combo. Use sparingly.

Luigi's dash attack is also good at catching certain opponents off guard. Hint: Kirby is NOT one of them.

Basically you want to never use it against someone with a very powerful ground game, like kirby or fox who will just jab you and lol as he owns you.

DKs dash attack is horrible. How can you catch someone offguard when you simply dash straight into them? It doesn't combo into anything except stage elements like tornados, piranhas etc.
Luigis dash attack is also horrible as it is negative on everything. you'll either hit their shield and get shield grabbed, hit them and then get counter. Hit there shield, push them off a ledge and get naired or they will jump, roll or anything and you'll look like a fool wailing yours tiny arms around.

 

[DMoogle]

Luigi's dash attack is nowhere near as bad as DK's, because most of the time it knocks your opponent away far enough so that they can't counter. It sucks, but at least it usually doesn't leave you wide open.

DK's dash attack is the worst A move in the game, bar none.

 

[rpotts]

Luigi's dash attack is nowhere near as bad as DK's, because most of the time it knocks your opponent away far enough so that they can't counter. It sucks, but at least it usually doesn't leave you wide open.

DK's dash attack is the worst A move in the game, bar none.

Samus' uptilt and upsmash are up there too, but DKs dash is prolly worse.