The New Tier List

[sharksquail]

Combos =/= Everything

Kirby can gimp so easily and a lot of his moves are way too good.

I'd say Kirby = Fox at least, if not better than Fox

Combos =/= Everything. This is true, but i find that Fox has more options for attacking than Kirby. As for Kirbys gimps Fox also can gimp many characters at low %s effectively using b-air or shine spikes.

I also give Fox the edge over Kirby due to lasers and the overall speed advantage.

 

[NixxxoN]

Fox bair to shine is always gonna be a bit risky and you can basically lose a stock if you miss. Fox has a bad recovery, and quite easy to edgeguard unless you are at high height. If you discard the edgeguarding option, Fox needs usually a lot of hits to get a KO and you can easily mess up or miss a z-cancel, while Kirby is just too easy to do everything and gimp way too easily, and no need to say anything about his utilt. Kirby's enormous hitboxes work well as both offense and defense, thats the main reason why hes so good, the same as pikachu.
About lasers... there are tactics to make laser spam be not really successful. On a small stage, Fox hasnt got room for spam+spacing, and on a big stages you can hide and go away and the fox will eventually stop spamming.

 

[dandan]

he said bair or shine, not bair to shine. just pointing that.

 

[Mahie]

You can combo a bair into a shine. You can also do Shine to bair.

 

[Surri-Sama]

I cant belive peopel are still talking about this, like this xD

 

[sharksquail]

, Fox needs usually a lot of hits to get a KO and you can easily mess up or miss a z-cancel, while Kirby is just too easy to do everything and gimp way too easily, and no need to say anything about his utilt.

I thought the tier list was about character potential, not player skill.

 

[andrewajt62]

I thought the tier list was about character potential, not player skill.

Yeah that's true, it's based off assuming the player is at the height of the metagame.

 

[NixxxoN]

Players arent machines and they make mistakes. Its important if a char is easier than another because that means less mistakes and more efficience.

 

[asianaussie]

The tier list is for high level play and is a gauge of overall character potential, so player skill is important, just not in relevance to the tiering.

 

[ballin4life]

To clarify: I meant that S tier should be
Pika
Fox
Kirby

and keep everything else the same.

Also Kirby combos better than pika imo. It's a lot easier to set up a kirby utilt than a pika utilt or uair chain

 

[t3h Icy]

Kirby's learning curve is fast though, but it peaks quickly. Most people can do well with Kirby, but getting better doesn't make a huge difference, compared to other characters.

At top level, Kirby's n00b slaying abilities aren't as broken.

 

[B0x]

Why is mario so high?

 

[ballin4life]

^^ Really good recovery, decent combos, good edgeguarding and projectile

 

[Darth Rancorous]

im thinking that maybe we should start taking into account tournament placings as many smashers, including myself, are trying to expand the community, more specifically, competitively.

 

[The Star King]

The only place where tournaments happen somewhat often ATM is NorCal/WA, and players such as Isai skew the results.

EDIT: Not counting Japan.

 

[Darth Rancorous]

The only place where tournaments happen somewhat often ATM is NorCal/WA, and players such as Isai skew the results.

EDIT: Not counting Japan.

haha. yeah, true that

 

[NixxxoN]

Kirby's learning curve is fast though, but it peaks quickly.

Not really. A good Kirby player can easily 5-stock the typical "kirby n00b". Oh a higher level, malva's kirby seems to be able to 5-stock people like MATTS!

 

[blaze3927]

Not really. A good Kirby player can easily 5-stock the typical "kirby n00b". Oh a higher level, malva's kirby seems to be able to 5-stock people like MATTS!

dont use isai/malva as an example, he's broken.

 

[NixxxoN]

dont use isai/malva as an example, he's broken.

broken is an overused word, and malva's kirby proves that even if its Kirby, theres still a huge gap for improvement.

 

[DMoogle]

Not really. A good Kirby player can easily 5-stock the typical "kirby n00b". Oh a higher level, malva's kirby seems to be able to 5-stock people like MATTS!

I agree, Kirby still has a lot of potential, even after you have a good grasp of his "broken" moves.

Most Kirby players suck at Z2Ding, they just rely on their opponents making big mistakes, since Kirby is the master at punishing big mistakes. Besides, there are very few very good players that play Kirby much at all, so it can be difficult to judge his true potential. Contrast that with Falcon and Link, which are possibly the two most popular characters to play at high levels.

 

[felipe_9595]

Alpha kirby is a great kirby and he has honour

(COught cught isai cought cought )

 

[dandan]

please do not cought at me.
and honor, wtf this is not a gentelman sport, this is just a video game :S

 

[felipe_9595]

please do not cought at me.
and honor, wtf this is not a gentelman sport, this is just a video game :S

Honour >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Brawl>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Drill to Intercept

 

[dandan]

what

10what the **** are you talking about :S

 

[P D]

lol are you guys trying to spell cough? :D

 

[dandan]

i was being sarcastic

 

[Deleted member]

I agree, Kirby still has a lot of potential, even after you have a good grasp of his "broken" moves.

Most Kirby players suck at Z2Ding, they just rely on their opponents making big mistakes, since Kirby is the master at punishing big mistakes. Besides, there are very few very good players that play Kirby much at all, so it can be difficult to judge his true potential. Contrast that with Falcon and Link, which are possibly the two most popular characters to play at high levels.

are you blind

look at isais or any japanese kirby

kirby's metagame is

up-tilt up-tilt up-tilt weak b-air d-air spike

if you want to include an up-air so you can combo further

 

[blaze3927]

are you blind

look at isais or any japanese kirby

kirby's metagame is

up-tilt up-tilt up-tilt weak b-air d-air spike

if you want to include an up-air so you can combo further

you forgot the huge metagame of varying
fsmash

with

pivot fsmash

 

[dch111]

that fsmash is fsmash perfected

japanese kirby

kirby vs kirby
kirby vs puff
puff vs puff

jumpfest on dreamland

kirby vs anyone else on dreamland: exactly as you both described

 

[virtualgamecafe]

Honestly, I think samus is a good character. I don't understand these tier things but.. Samus just isn't that type of combo-er.

Maybe that's why she's at bottom.

 

[dandan]

tou can read the discussion to understand the postions of all the chars.
samus has a lot of flaws.

 

[dch111]

Honestly, I think samus is a good character. I don't understand these tier things but.. Samus just isn't that type of combo-er.

Maybe that's why she's at bottom.

If she seems not "that" bad, that's because she isn't. There aren't any truly terribad characters in this game unlike in the later smash games. With just 12 characters, the developers were able to balance the characters relatively well. So she's not really analogous to Pichu in Melee in quality disparity, if that's the association you're getting. IMO, the bottom tiers in this game are more analogous to the mid/low tiers in Melee.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Honestly, I think samus is a good character. I don't understand these tier things but.. Samus just isn't that type of combo-er.

Maybe that's why she's at bottom.

as said by Dch11.

I would see Samus Smash 64 version in melee as probably just above bowser.

it is not that Samus is bad per se. it is more that other characters are just really, really good. My main issue with Samus is that even though Samus can use Up B's to get out of combos, people just DI out of Samus's up b. Samus would be much better without the ability to DI out of her up b (Neither Link or DK the next 2 up have any real benefits from this).

Every character that is better than Samus has something broken about them. Samus is basically average in everything outside of getting out of combos. There is no spam to her.
Link has a dumb projectile use and a really good up tilt/back air/down air
DK has down b cancels, grab releases, wall combos, up air cancels, and down air combos. DK has some stupidly good matchups.

Pikachu has 3/4 incredible matchups.
Fox has 3/4 as well
so does Kirby in some ways.

 

[sharksquail]

Every character that is better than Samus has something broken about them. Samus is basically average in everything outside of getting out of combos. There is no spam to her.
Link has a dumb projectile use and a really good up tilt/back air/down air
DK has down b cancels, grab releases, wall combos, up air cancels, and down air combos. DK has some stupidly good matchups.

I've been playing Samus a lot recently, and I agree with this. It's not that Samus is bad, she just doesn't have any broken moves. Being effective with Samus as far as concerned comes from effectively reading your opponent.

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

are you blind

look at isais or any japanese kirby

kirby's metagame is

up-tilt up-tilt up-tilt weak b-air d-air spike

if you want to include an up-air so you can combo further

I don't think you quite understood what he said.

 

[The Star King]

Gross Jigglypuff is above Ness now =/

Yeah I'm slow.

EDIT:

Why is Ness above Puff? And Luigi above Link? I thought the tier list was based on the matchup values?

 

[Surri-Sama]

This tier list is about who talks the most

 

[SpeedGhost]

Has there ever been any discussion on specialized tier list for each tournament stage?

I mean, fox can dominate on hyrule but as the stage gets smaller he starts to lose his camping ability and can be gimped more. Also, Link would probably be much higher on the Hyrule Tier List... Could anyone construct tier lists such as those?

srry if this isnt the right place to post this Q

 

[firo]

I don't think that is the most updated list. T3h icy stated that jiggs/ness and luigi/link had swapped due to some matchup discussions but went inactive for a while before the diagram, or tier list for that matter, was changed.

 

[t3h Icy]

I don't think that is the most updated list. T3h icy stated that jiggs/ness and luigi/link had swapped due to some matchup discussions but went inactive for a while before the diagram, or tier list for that matter, was changed.

Well it would be silly to just change it again. Besides, the differences are small enough where any match-up change would swap them around anyway.

But if you guys REALLY want to, I could.