cubaisdeath
Smash Lord
LOL this is amazing
-
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The New Tier List
- Thread starter t3h Icy
- Start date
SilentSlayers
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2009
- Messages
- 328
Lol, I had the same thoughts. He sounded like a babbling religious person.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Samus sucks, and you know it. I main her, and I hate doing tons of spacing for such little rewards as two hit combos or an fsmash.
Superstar
Smash Champion
I'm not arguing anymore about the recovery because its getting into repetitiion, but:
and:
This is a terrible analogy, cause they're both wrong. And if you get the smarter people, they're both right, both of their methods work just with different sideffects. Like, both government spending and a tax rebate (to the poor/mid) both are pretty decent stimulus, but what do you prefer, public goods or people choosing what they want to purchase?
and:
We didn't quite have it well known yet. Some of us did, but I'm sure many of us were still nub then. I think that was before the "Link fever"?
WTF is link fever
lol at many of us being still nubs. You just love to disagree with me it seems
people read this thread again plz, its from more than 1 year ago but almost no one was noob here.
Fireblaster, Surri, Superstar, Koro and Superboom amongs others... no one disagreed about Links recovery being the worst.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178163
@ mattnf: I couldnt care less about what those "people" say about me
And full stop, i wont argue more about this
lol at many of us being still nubs. You just love to disagree with me it seems
people read this thread again plz, its from more than 1 year ago but almost no one was noob here.
Fireblaster, Surri, Superstar, Koro and Superboom amongs others... no one disagreed about Links recovery being the worst.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178163
@ mattnf: I couldnt care less about what those "people" say about me
And full stop, i wont argue more about this
ballin4life
Smash Hero
Government spending doesn't really stimulate the economy (at least not in the long run... but "in the long run we are all dead" - Keynes).
D
Deleted member
Guest
if you actually read your stupid azz topic you can see that some people do disagree with Link being at last
what people like you don't seem to notice is that people get better and/or notice new things about the game. A lot more people nowadays see how much dik Ness sucks now and his stagnant comboing problems
to quote a topic over a year in the past to prove your point when people think differently now is stupid (you included)
false_angelwing
Smash Cadet
It's so cute how Lovage sticks up for s2j in the event of a minor altercation. You two must really love each other, it's beautiful.
Gammelnorsk
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2008
- Messages
- 749
ur ugly
cubaisdeath
Smash Lord
to say that the game hasn't changed in over a year is ********. Smash is an ever evolving series, it changes every day.
Darth Rancorous
Smash Ace
i mean, yeah, samus cant combo like hax fox or anything like that, but that doesnt mean she cant be good. every character has a different kind of playstyle. one thing i noticed about isai and jaimehr's samus ditto videos is that they liked to jump alot and be up in the air. i main samus, and i try to stay as low to the ground as possible because i feel that im able to cause more damage to the opponent if theyre up above me then below me. their z-cancelling, and di'ing abilities are greater than mine, but i feel that i can control samus better
Lovage
Smash Hero
rewind real quick
you think you can control samus better than isai
you think you can control samus better than isai
dch111
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 472
In any forum thread, all it really takes is one sarcastic or insulting post to cause a large argument, so this thread isn't really that amazing.
This is my view in any case: what is recovery? The ability to get back after you've been hit or thrown past the boundary line marked by the edge touching the void (as fireblaster said). The only thing that remains is to simply go through every position Ness and Link can be in that space right after recovering from hitstun, and determine which has a better chance of making it back. This task is simpler than it seems because you can generally reduce every high return position to one case (about the same every time, so no need to repeat the analysis), every very far position to one case (Link can't make it; Ness only has two options, to drop till he can sweetspot, or go for it right away which is suicide against a good edgeguarder), and then the close positions and edge.
The important thing is to assume both sides (edgeguarder and returner) have optimal play. Against noobs Ness's recovery will appear to be, and is, better, because people are generally afraid to edgeguard Ness, thinking he is unstoppable through his entire upB launch. This is why Ness's recovery is better at lower levels. But at higher levels, with better understanding of the game, things that would seem ingenious at first, such as intercepting the PK thunder loop, become basic, and even standard edgeguards, and Ness's performance declines rapidly. That's what we're talking about, right? high level play.
Let's go through the return positions then with this in mind. First, from very high up. I'd say they are both equal with Link having some advantage due to projectiles and better ranged Dair, but this kind of recovery is more about mindgames than anything, so I'll consider them equal.
How about from close up? With optimal edgeguarding, keep in mind, Ness is done for. He can be spiked or hit before his PK thunder can complete, or his PK thunder can be interrupted altogether. In optimal play, his best bet is to reduce his position to a far away one, which I'll address later. As for Link, his upB is much faster and has a comfortable range to at least ensure sweetspotting of the edge.
Now we can look at the other kind of close position, recovering from the edge itself. Link wins again here, as Ness's second jump is far too slow (compare to Link's jumping out with blade ready and swiping), and Ness's Ledge B-cancels (namely, his downB) are either risky or downright ineffective against a good edgeguarder, who won't be fooled.
Then we have the far away positions, which I mentioned earlier Ness could (and should) reduce to from the close positions. Link loses by default here because he cannot make it back. This is Ness's opportunity to shine since Link has been winning in all the other positions. However (!), we are assuming good edgeguarding again, using modern high level play, and shine he does not. This is because he is not invincible towards the end, and any attempts to sweetspot the edge are upset by simple tilts, or even spikes. And if anything other than a sweetspot is done, it's even easier to knock Ness away with an aerial. In effect his recovery here is actually approximately the same as Link's. But let's give Ness one more chance. What about DIing as you get hit while trying to sweetspot? Unfortunately, this is simply not enough, not at human-capable levels anyway. Maybe you can DI past the opponent into the stage (remember, DIing anywhere into the void again is a losing position), but then they simply have to grab you while you're in inevitable hitstun, and backthrow you back, rinse and repeat. A patient edgeguarder is impossible for Ness to get past.
So in summary:
High position: Link slight advantage with projectiles, but mostly dependent on mindgames
Close position: Link wins, Ness not a chance
Edge position: Link wins
Far position: Ness slight advantage, but almost no chance like Link
From this it is clear that Link's recovery is better. Basically, from every close position, Ness's PK thunder 2 can be interrupted, or he can be killed before it completes. From every far position, his PK thunder 2 can be stopped by a tilt, a spike, or a Bair. From the edge his ledgehop is slow, his ledgestall is ineffective, and his get-up options are aren't any better than Link's. And from a high position, he doesn't have an advantage against Link either. Link's wins in the close and edge positions far exceed the comparatively minuscule advantage of Ness in the far position, thus Link recovery > Ness's recovery.
With good players on both sides, of course, keep in mind. Noobs don't know how to edgeguard Ness, which is arguably a solved thing in higher level play.
Now it's settled I hope, otherwise my wall of text would have been pointless. Though I really can't think how anyone could argue against this conclusion other than saying the far position occurs so often that Ness's minuscule advantage suddenly becomes respectable, but every experienced player knows otherwise.
This is my view in any case: what is recovery? The ability to get back after you've been hit or thrown past the boundary line marked by the edge touching the void (as fireblaster said). The only thing that remains is to simply go through every position Ness and Link can be in that space right after recovering from hitstun, and determine which has a better chance of making it back. This task is simpler than it seems because you can generally reduce every high return position to one case (about the same every time, so no need to repeat the analysis), every very far position to one case (Link can't make it; Ness only has two options, to drop till he can sweetspot, or go for it right away which is suicide against a good edgeguarder), and then the close positions and edge.
The important thing is to assume both sides (edgeguarder and returner) have optimal play. Against noobs Ness's recovery will appear to be, and is, better, because people are generally afraid to edgeguard Ness, thinking he is unstoppable through his entire upB launch. This is why Ness's recovery is better at lower levels. But at higher levels, with better understanding of the game, things that would seem ingenious at first, such as intercepting the PK thunder loop, become basic, and even standard edgeguards, and Ness's performance declines rapidly. That's what we're talking about, right? high level play.
Let's go through the return positions then with this in mind. First, from very high up. I'd say they are both equal with Link having some advantage due to projectiles and better ranged Dair, but this kind of recovery is more about mindgames than anything, so I'll consider them equal.
How about from close up? With optimal edgeguarding, keep in mind, Ness is done for. He can be spiked or hit before his PK thunder can complete, or his PK thunder can be interrupted altogether. In optimal play, his best bet is to reduce his position to a far away one, which I'll address later. As for Link, his upB is much faster and has a comfortable range to at least ensure sweetspotting of the edge.
Now we can look at the other kind of close position, recovering from the edge itself. Link wins again here, as Ness's second jump is far too slow (compare to Link's jumping out with blade ready and swiping), and Ness's Ledge B-cancels (namely, his downB) are either risky or downright ineffective against a good edgeguarder, who won't be fooled.
Then we have the far away positions, which I mentioned earlier Ness could (and should) reduce to from the close positions. Link loses by default here because he cannot make it back. This is Ness's opportunity to shine since Link has been winning in all the other positions. However (!), we are assuming good edgeguarding again, using modern high level play, and shine he does not. This is because he is not invincible towards the end, and any attempts to sweetspot the edge are upset by simple tilts, or even spikes. And if anything other than a sweetspot is done, it's even easier to knock Ness away with an aerial. In effect his recovery here is actually approximately the same as Link's. But let's give Ness one more chance. What about DIing as you get hit while trying to sweetspot? Unfortunately, this is simply not enough, not at human-capable levels anyway. Maybe you can DI past the opponent into the stage (remember, DIing anywhere into the void again is a losing position), but then they simply have to grab you while you're in inevitable hitstun, and backthrow you back, rinse and repeat. A patient edgeguarder is impossible for Ness to get past.
So in summary:
High position: Link slight advantage with projectiles, but mostly dependent on mindgames
Close position: Link wins, Ness not a chance
Edge position: Link wins
Far position: Ness slight advantage, but almost no chance like Link
From this it is clear that Link's recovery is better. Basically, from every close position, Ness's PK thunder 2 can be interrupted, or he can be killed before it completes. From every far position, his PK thunder 2 can be stopped by a tilt, a spike, or a Bair. From the edge his ledgehop is slow, his ledgestall is ineffective, and his get-up options are aren't any better than Link's. And from a high position, he doesn't have an advantage against Link either. Link's wins in the close and edge positions far exceed the comparatively minuscule advantage of Ness in the far position, thus Link recovery > Ness's recovery.
With good players on both sides, of course, keep in mind. Noobs don't know how to edgeguard Ness, which is arguably a solved thing in higher level play.
Now it's settled I hope, otherwise my wall of text would have been pointless. Though I really can't think how anyone could argue against this conclusion other than saying the far position occurs so often that Ness's minuscule advantage suddenly becomes respectable, but every experienced player knows otherwise.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Um.
Pretty sure in 64 not being able to combo makes you a bad character. Samus is the only character who doesn't even have one zero-death combo. She also has a pitiful recovery.
Pretty sure in 64 not being able to combo makes you a bad character. Samus is the only character who doesn't even have one zero-death combo. She also has a pitiful recovery.
asianaussie
Smash Hero
I'm not doubting your intentions, but if you hadn't brought it up nothing would have happened from there. Now I'm sure people will analyse and find apparent faults in that post.
I disagree that a character is bad because he/she can't combo. To me a player makes a character good, no the other way around. That dones't mean I believ tiers don't exist or character mtach-ups don't. But if you can get good in mind games and spacing you shhould be winning your battles regardless of characters.
ballin4life
Smash Hero
People have done samus z2ds in combo videos (alancitu and prince). I would agree that samus is the only character that doesn't have an easy to abuse combo (every other character has an easy uair or utilt combo). But still it's not like luigi can z2d all the time... you need to get to mid percents where uair starts comboing.
Also samus's recovery is better than link falcon ness and fox and at least on par with jiggs and dk and maybe kirby and yoshi
Blackshadow
Smash Ace
The purpose of mindgaming your opponent is to get them to make a mistake. Without combos, you only ever get to add around 15-25% to your opponent for every mistake they make. One mistake when playing a character with combos can potentially take off an entire stock. That means that playing Samus already puts you at a grevious disadvantage against the entire cast. This means (among other reasons) that she is a bad character.ciaza said:
lol wutballin4life said:
SuPeRbOoM
Smash Master
dch111 explained it pretty well. Reversal ledge DI is the only hope for ness when he recovers from below really.
Daedatheus
Smash Lord
Firstly no you can't. (z-canceling "abilities"? You either do it or not, with Samus you should be z-cancelling everything)
Secondly, they're playing Samus DITTOS, a weird matchup, played a certain way.
Thirdly, Samus's greatest spacing/priority lies below and behind her (dair/bair, plus bombs). If people are always above you, what are you using against them? Usmash sucks, uair sucks, and up+b is laggy. Fsmash is amazing but it doesn't work if your opponent is always above you...
SheerMadness
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2005
- Messages
- 4,781
I think its safe to say Darth Rancorous has a fairly large ego.
Someone should give him the business with Yoshi.
Someone should give him the business with Yoshi.
I always pivot+bair spam when people are above me.
Superstar
Smash Champion
Daed said that because Darth (not Fox) mentioned that its better to play low to ground. Which means they'll usually be above you.
I need to learn ledge DI. I don't really know it very well. Funny thing is, this argument might even extend to Link having a better recovery than Falcon. I think the same arguments mostly apply. Maybe some other characters too.
EDIT: Though I don't have a solid opinion on it. For example, Falcon's much superior ledgegame and since he can grab the edge in many situations Link can, well, I don't know.
I need to learn ledge DI. I don't really know it very well. Funny thing is, this argument might even extend to Link having a better recovery than Falcon. I think the same arguments mostly apply. Maybe some other characters too.
EDIT: Though I don't have a solid opinion on it. For example, Falcon's much superior ledgegame and since he can grab the edge in many situations Link can, well, I don't know.
JaimeHR
Smash Ace
Ness' recovery isn't that nice once you're playing on Saffron City or Mushroom Kingdom.
DMoogle
A$
To the question you asked before the ninja-edit: Depends how you look at it as "fair". It's not fair out of principle; that is, everyone can use their up-B except him. But for practical and realistic purposes, yes, I do think it's fair.
DMoogle
A$
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB1YAt37Iis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHQ5YpwDg9Y
Not sure if Samus' combos are in the second one or the first one.
EDIT: Oops, didn't mean to double post.
JaimeHR
Smash Ace
There was a tournament rule about ness' players being able to demand a re-pick if saffron city was selected or something like that because of his better than anyone's recovery and i guess there's people who consider Saffron City a perfect counterpick stage against Ness but i'm not sure.
Nintendude
Smash Hero
Samus's uair is really underrated.
Fireblaster
Smash Lord
No it isn't, it has frame advantage for the person getting hit, and that's pretty stupid.
DMoogle
A$
Yeah, I think it's a dumb rule. I think I'd rather play on Saffron with Ness than Dreamland.
What do you mean by frame advantage?
rpotts
Smash Lord
I think he means that samus' uair has lag frames that last longer than the hitstun from the last uair hit. I think...
dch111
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 472
Yeah...and to think I used to think Uair -> Bair was a feasible combo. Turns out my opponents were just slow.
Edit: oh, and as you said, Falcon doesn't really lose like Ness does against Link in the edge position
I'd conclude Falcon's recovery is a bit better than Link's but it's not dead clear or anything like with Ness vs. Link recovery or Pikachu vs. anyone recovery
I was thinking about that too. It would seem similar if I only went by my previous post, but in it I forgot to mention reasons why I assume every decent edgeguarder should easily smack Ness down from close, and tilt him to death from far. It's because he takes a long time to do his third (and second!) jumps, and his third jump basically tells the opponent exactly where he's going, problems that Falcon doesn't have (and it makes all the difference). Also, the significant delay and vulnerability at the end of Ness's third jump, while Falcon's at least can actually attack the edgeguarder and reset his third jump. Plus Falcon has his punch to extend his recovery somewhat, while Link's bomb recovery requires the edgeguarder to be virtually absent.
Edit: oh, and as you said, Falcon doesn't really lose like Ness does against Link in the edge position
I'd conclude Falcon's recovery is a bit better than Link's but it's not dead clear or anything like with Ness vs. Link recovery or Pikachu vs. anyone recovery
D
Deleted member
Guest
up-air is useful for utility
and if you get the **** out of the way after the move ends or do it before you completely finish the move by landing on the floor
and if you get the **** out of the way after the move ends or do it before you completely finish the move by landing on the floor
Nintendude
Smash Hero
uair has a surprising amount of range and seems to have A LOT of priority against attacks coming from above. It's protected me many times against edgeguards especially.
cubaisdeath
Smash Lord
you almost have to be falling through a platform, or vice versa for the move to be of any use. don't hit their shield with it, thats for sure lol