The New Tier List

[rpotts]

his recovery is substantially better in japanese ssb, much less landing lag, 5% more damage on PKT2 plus the invincibility frames and seemingly higher priority on PKT2. Still interceptable but better than usa version.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

god ****, you guys are STILL arguing over this?

Lol...this is almost as bad as the barlw boards with discussing Metaknight.

This tier list is only for US SSB...so why even bring up others

Of course the tier list is different in the japanese one...Link has a wtf broken up tilt and the such. Same for euro with Link (I think right) having better Horizontal movement

 

[Superstar]

you think that would be the case, but i have played a long time on 50fps and when i switched to ntsc, with 60, i got much better fast, even though the muscle memory was of 50.

actually the timing on 60 fps is easier cause you have 10 more frames to enter input, that is why for example it is harder to do quick shines on pal versions, cause there is a bigger delay between jumping and shining. same goes for ness djc and so on.

hope i made it clear

Not really. Makes me think they've compensated it in some way, so the game is actually the same speed albeit more choppy. Number of frames alone would mean European would be easier [and more boring].

Though the 10 more frames to enter input is a bit misguided. If you press a button inbetween two frames, I THINK it'd just happen on the next frame (or the number of frames is enough so where it wouldn't matter). This would make sense, however, if the game was compensated. In other words, everyone is faster by 60/50 or whatever is mathematically correct from frame to frame. It'd then be like playing a shooter with lower FPS, you have the same speed but you "jump" more.

I'd like to know this, someone time two attack in both NTSC and PAL, see if they have any "ratio".

LOL Koro. :D

 

[Deleted member]

I have never played the European version so I would never know if its easier/harder

 

[SilentSlayers]

I dunno if it's easier or harder (to get used to), though it's definitely more boring and less skill based, but as an experienced TASer, I know that playing at 50 FPS is easier than 60 FPS. You slow down the game to be more precise, and PAL is slower than NTSC, so PAL is gay.

 

[NixxxoN]

Woah, Superstar, i thought you were a good debater, but apparently you went to the dark side aka "omg im right ur wrong pwned gg no re"

By reading your comments about the european version, i assume you have never played it, and you still want to have the truth even though you are completely wrong about it, so its pointless to continue arguing with you about the rest of things, because no matter what, you will still "be right"...

 

[SilentSlayers]

Uh, you still havn't realized that (skilled) people are agreeing with Superstar and not with you, but okay, keep dreaming. I guess he is the better debater, especially since he actually responds to your "claims" and you just repeat your own. : )

 

[Superstar]

Actually, I went to the "dark side" because you keep repeating the same thing. In other words, you've drained all of my patience.

Lol condescence. Your reason for European version was wrong btw, because under your reason it'd be easier. The only logical way it'd be harder would be if the devs compensated [ie: attacks lasting less frames in European version], but ok, you're right, I'm wrong, OBVIOUSLY TAS is a lot harder to do flashy combos on than the original game.

EDIT: Also, this is why I attempt to avoid holes in my arguments, because people like you take them, and use them as a way to validate everything else.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Meanwhile, back on topic, who likes the tier list?

Seriously guys, you are all arguing over what? Nixxxon has the right to believe Ness has a better recovery than Link, whether everyone else agrees with him or not. Everyone is allowed to their own personal opinion. I'm not taking any sides in this... just trying to end this peacefully.

 

[MattNF]

Nixxxon, you're wrong. Just admit it already. You're embarrassing yourself.

 

[NixxxoN]

silentslayers, im not talking to you
I will p2p superstar (if he wants of course) and i'll resume the conversation there, not here with teh trolls and ***s, english is still a bit difficult for me.

Thank god people like blue yoshi post here

 

[Superstar]

Meanwhile, back on topic, who likes the tier list?

Seriously guys, you are all arguing over what? Nixxxon has the right to believe Ness has a better recovery than Link, whether everyone else agrees with him or not. Everyone is allowed to their own personal opinion. I'm not taking any sides in this... just trying to end this peacefully.

He has the right to believe it, but as soon as he posts it in a public place declaring everyone as wrong [too lazy to quote], its fair game. Whether or not he continues to believe it is none of my concern.

I could P2P, but I'm just using a standard logical argument. Last I've P2Pd was vs Fire, and before that was like a month with no P2P. Not only will I not have the tech skill to do anything right, 7 frames just helps skews everything up a bit more. P2P wouldn't help test anything, you'd be better off P2Ping Fire or Matt than me honestly.

 

[NixxxoN]

He has the right to believe it, but as soon as he posts it in a public place declaring everyone as wrong [too lazy to quote], its fair game. Whether or not he continues to believe it is none of my concern.

I could P2P, but I'm just using a standard logical argument. Last I've P2Pd was vs Fire, and before that was like a month with no P2P. Not only will I not have the tech skill to do anything right, 7 frames just helps skews everything up a bit more. P2P wouldn't help test anything, you'd be better off P2Ping Fire or Matt than me honestly.

Sometimes things are not black or white, they can be kinda grey.

Also, your language is a little bit too technical for me, unless we can talk in spanish

 

[Blue Yoshi]

My point was why not just stop this discussion, since first off, it's completely off topic of the thread (what does any of this have to do with the new tier list?), and second, it has long exceeded a simple debate.

How about this:

Ness's recovery is better from far away because he can at least reach the stage. Sure he'll get killed 99% of the time due to the extreme lag, but at least he makes it to the stage and has a chance. Link has no chance at recovering.

Link's recovery is better from up close. He has a decent hitbox above him that allows him to hit people who try to edgeguard him, allowing for a better chance at making it back safely. Ness can easily be hit if he recovers too close to the ledge, as he is literally a free target.

There. You are all right in your own way. Why don't we just end it here?

 

[WOTG]

There was really no reason for the flames and insults, from some of the posters. Nixxxon just disagreed with Ness having a worse recovery then Link.

There are some positives about Ness' recovery, there are positives about Link's recovery. Maybe we can agree that their recoveries are equally bad. Or better yet, not care who's is better because they're both bad.

 

[MattNF]

Seriously guys, you are all arguing over what? Nixxxon has the right to believe Ness has a better recovery than Link, whether everyone else agrees with him or not. Everyone is allowed to their own personal opinion.

Right, because it's a matter of "belief" whether someone has worse recovery than someone else and not a matter of facts.

Pretty sure no one said Nixxxon can't have his own personal opinion, but we were just pointing out that it's still wrong.

 

[NoBio]

Right, because it's a matter of "belief" whether someone has worse recovery than someone else and not a matter of facts.

Pretty sure no one said Nixxxon can't have his own personal opinion, but we were just pointing out that it's still wrong.

Actually, it is easily a fact that Pikachu has a better recovery than someone like Mario or Link.

~NoTrace

 

[Fireblaster]

Wow Blue Yoshi, I used to to respect your opinion, but now you're pulling this crap about "beliefs" about recovery instead of it being fact? Come on now.

I'm gonna repeat what has been said before by all the GOOD players, considering no one has actually debunked it. As soon as Ness crosses that vertical line that separates the stage from the void, he's dead. Unless he's higher than the opponent or something, in which case Link has a higher chance of making it back from the same position anyways. No amount of predictable DownB edgegrab bull**** is gonna protect ness from getting edgeguarded.

 

[cubaisdeath]

I haven't had this much fun reading a thread in the SSB forums in forever.


regardless, I think that Link STILL has a better recovery than ness. people are trying to say that "if you're far away you're not recovering." no **** sherlock. how many characters can recover from a great distance? like 3? that point doesn't add anything to the arguement/debate

 

[ciaza]

I don't but the whole: "Ness can make it back from a distance, therefore it's better" either. The fact is if you are playing against an opponent who is half-decent, ness is dead, reagrdless. At the distance so is link because he can't make it back either, so at long distance it doesn't matter, they're both dead.

That leaves short-distance. At this distance, the edge-guarder can aerial ness and force him to go again, spike if he's in good position, or block the PKT2. With Link he has more of a chance, thanks to opportunities to be unpredicitable and priority. This isn't to say it's still one of the worst recoveries in the game, but he has a bit more of a chance to Ness, who against a good player can be called dead is he has to use his up-B to recover.

 

[NixxxoN]

LOL what WOTG said. You cant really prove Links recovery is better, or maybe this can help a bit

any char vs Link and any char vs Ness on each playable stage, throwing him away from the ledge. death at what %, % of recovery success, number of recovery tries, come on, those wise guys please do it.

End of discussion for me. I wont reply to any other troll.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Wow Blue Yoshi, I used to to respect your opinion, but now you're pulling this crap about "beliefs" about recovery instead of it being fact? Come on now.

I'm gonna repeat what has been said before by all the GOOD players, considering no one has actually debunked it. As soon as Ness crosses that vertical line that separates the stage from the void, he's dead. Unless he's higher than the opponent or something, in which case Link has a higher chance of making it back from the same position anyways. No amount of predictable DownB edgegrab bull**** is gonna protect ness from getting edgeguarded.

All I am trying to do is end this argument. I tried to use a method that I thought would make people happy, but I guess it did not work. I probably mis-worded it or something...

*While trying to make up an example, I realized that I was going absolutely nowhere and that my logic was heavily flawed*

Ok, ignore my last post. There was a purpose to it, but I forget what it was (and now I question it's worth).

All I've been trying to do is end this flame fest. We're arguing over a completely pointless topic. What are we really going to achieve at the end of this? Determine who has the worst recovery? What difference will this make?

 

[MattNF]

Actually, it is easily a fact that Pikachu has a better recovery than someone like Mario or Link.

~NoTrace

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say.

 

[Lovage]

End of discussion for me. I wont reply to any other troll.

people who rightfully argue that you're wrong = trolls. koooooo

 

[Fireblaster]

What are we really going to achieve at the end of this? Determine who has the worst recovery? What difference will this make?

It will stop dumb posters from spreading false information and dumb ideas such as "LOL Link's recovery is the absolute worst no matter what" or "Ness only sucks cuz of his recovery".

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

LOL what WOTG said. You cant really prove Links recovery is better, or maybe this can help a bit

any char vs Link and any char vs Ness on each playable stage, throwing him away from the ledge. death at what %, % of recovery success, number of recovery tries, come on, those wise guys please do it.

End of discussion for me. I wont reply to any other troll.

ness still loses in this scenario

 

[NixxxoN]

people who rightfully argue that you're wrong = trolls. koooooo

people who flame/insult someone for having a different opinion than them and believing their opinion is more valid = trolling / being an idiot

ness still loses in this scenario

Is this proven or you are saying it randomly?

 

[Skrlx]

mario bros and DK have the best recovery


screw pikachu's quick attack

 

[SilentSlayers]

people who flame/insult someone for having a different opinion than them and believing their opinion is more valid = trolling / being an idiot



Is this proven or you are saying it randomly?

Um, I believe that people have posts giving reasons why Ness would lose in these situations. Maybe you should read it and stop saying everything is random.

I don't need to prove the sky is blue. Open your eyes.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

NixxxoN, at this point, it's best to simply say you agree, even if you don't. At one point, you have to give in, as arguments will be going nowhere. Take the matchup chart for example. During our Puff vs Yoshi debate, I believed it was a Puff advantage, but for the sake of advancing with the matchup chart, enough people said even that I went along with them. I still now believe it's a puff advantage, but at the time, I thought it was best to concede to the many that said even.

You're the only person who is saying Ness > Link in terms of recovery, so just concede to the others. What you say does not have to be what you think (like in the puff yoshi example above).

 

[NixxxoN]

I said I stopped the debate, because i dont want to waste more time. I still believe what I want, and so should everyone. Everything is relative in this world depending on the perspective. Political parties wouldnt exist if everybody had to agree in everything in this world.

Just to remember how hypocrite are some of the forumers here.... Several months ago Link recovery was placed as the worst recovery in the recovery tier list thread. Nobody said anything.
And of course, Ness was placed not long ago as 3rd in the tier list, and nobody said anything.
/discussion

 

[MattNF]

I said I stopped the debate, because i dont want to waste more time. I still believe what I want, and so should everyone. Everything is relative in this world depending on the perspective. Political parties wouldnt exist if everybody had to agree in everything in this world.

Just to remember how hypocritical are some of the forumers here.... Several months ago Link recovery was placed as the worst recovery in the recovery tier list thread. Nobody said anything.
And of course, Ness was placed not long ago as 3rd in the tier list, and nobody said anything.
But if some individual like me says a different thing, then the bunch of idiots start to flame. yawn

You remind me of religious people who persist in delusion despite all logic and reason

 

[NixxxoN]

You remind me of religious people who persist in delusion despite all logic and reason

And you may remind me of those mindless people who believe what people say just because a lot of people say it, or the biased media for that matter.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I said I stopped the debate, because i dont want to waste more time. I still believe what I want, and so should everyone. Everything is relative in this world depending on the perspective. Political parties wouldnt exist if everybody had to agree in everything in this world.

Just to remember how hypocrite are some of the forumers here.... Several months ago Link recovery was placed as the worst recovery in the recovery tier list thread. Nobody said anything.
And of course, Ness was placed not long ago as 3rd in the tier list, and nobody said anything.
/discussion

Several months ago, Ness was 3rd in the tier list, since people didn't realize you could just grab the ledge and spike, or jump into his up b

His recovery was considered second best all those years ago. You do know that the old tier list was made by gamefaq's people who thought that kirby had a good recovery.

But this is present smash 64. We know how to kill predictable recoveries (as in Ness, Link, Falcon, etc)

I personally think both of their recoveries are combined the worst...but Link has a better chance of coming back, just due to the sheer priority of that moves Who cares if Link has 0 range where in this game, unless your Pikachu or sometimes mario, you usually die anyway.

And you may remind me of those mindless people who believe what people say just because a lot of people say it, or the biased media for that matter.

So your saying that since matt agrees with others, then he is wrong. You do realize this is a community decision. Its like how Sheer and I are bias towards Yoshi. We'll say that yoshi is better than he actually is...but the communtiy won't change it since the other people are the majority

 

[MattNF]

And you may remind me of those mindless people who believe what people say just because a lot of people say it, or the biased media for that matter.

Except we've shown time and time again that you're completely wrong, yet you continue to annoy everyone with your inane babbling. I'm pretty sure nobody is "believing" it (as if it was a matter of belief and not fact) just because everyone else is saying it. Everyone is against you because you're wrong.

 

[Skrlx]

So we have established Link's recovery > Ness' recovery right?

What's left

 

[NixxxoN]

I dont see "everybody" or "the whole community" here, just a bunch of players.

As you Koro and Sheer are biased with Yoshi, i can be biased with Ness aswell, so lets set stop this here.

 

[Lovage]

I dont see "everybody" or "the whole community" here, just a bunch of players.

As you Koro and Sheer are biased with Yoshi, i can be biased with Ness aswell, so lets set stop this here.

"i play the character, so i can be blind and wrong about him! get off my back!"

 

[asianaussie]

If you just stopped posting, it would all go away...

Are you that determined to be deemed right?

On another note, I applaud what Blue Yoshi tried to do.

 

[MattNF]

Fireblaster: Nixxxon failed in...
Fireblaster: 15 different ways?
Fireblaster: *** i lost count
cnc\ s2j: hes dumber than a rock
MattNF: Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 1,941
MattNF: he's failed 1941 times
{B.E.A.R.D.} Garuda: LOL