The New Tier List

[Fireblaster]

WTF? Link recovery < all recoveries

Ness's recovery > Link's recovery?

Boy you best be joking

 

[Deleted member]

Link's recovery is actually pretty safe and good

 

[DMoogle]

Ness's recovery > Link's recovery?

Boy you best be joking

I feel like you're only comparing their up-Bs. Ness' second jump, while pretty slow (although it can be canceled in multiple ways), has only slightly less vertical and horizontal range compared to Link's second jump and up-B combined. Ness' up-B obviously sucks but occasionally you'll recover from that as well.

Link's recovery is actually pretty safe and good

His up-B is probably one of the better ones as far as defense goes, but the fact that you usually can't use an aerial move with the second jump (unless recovering from above) and the range that he can recover from makes it far from "good". He clearly has either the worst or second worst recovery out of everyone.

 

[cubaisdeath]

you know you have a bad recovery where there are ways to aid it, and it still fails lol

 

[DMoogle]

you know you have a bad recovery where there are ways to aid it, and it still fails lol

I play Link a lot, and I can safety say that the bomb recovery has only helped me recover ONCE.

But man, it was SO god**** cool when it did.

 

[cubaisdeath]

I know what you mean, I do it almost every time to make it back, and I have only succeeded once or twice. I had to pause to gloat too lol

 

[Deleted member]

I feel like you're only comparing their up-Bs. Ness' second jump, while pretty slow (although it can be canceled in multiple ways), has only slightly less vertical and horizontal range compared to Link's second jump and up-B combined. Ness' up-B obviously sucks but occasionally you'll recover from that as well.

His up-B is probably one of the better ones as far as defense goes, but the fact that you usually can't use an aerial move with the second jump (unless recovering from above) and the range that he can recover from makes it far from "good". He clearly has either the worst or second worst recovery out of everyone.

you can n-air with 2nd jump, BOOMERANG, pull out a bomb if you are high up, and the up-b hitbox makes it safer than like 1/3 of the casts

if you just hang out in the middle of the stage, his recovery is good enough to make it back safely in most cases.

I like his recovery more than Ness's, Kirby, Samus, DK's, those may cover more distance but they are prone to getting *****

 

[NixxxoN]

lol wut
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178163

IIRC in that thread pretty much everyone agreed that Link was the worst recovery.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

I think what's most shocking in that thread is that Rampage actually posted in the 64 forums. He's a fellow BC smasher who I believe plays only melee. Every time I ask if he's including 64 in his tournaments, he says that 64 is too broken for his tournaments lol.

 

[Deleted member]

lol wut
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178163

IIRC in that thread pretty much everyone agreed that Link was the worst recovery.

i guess everyone is wrong then

 

[asianaussie]

Link's recovery is actually pretty hard to edgeguard...edgehogs seem to do the trick though. If you're far enough from the edge, you don't even have the chance to make it back. I think the point being made is that Ness is much easier to edgeguard, but Link just doesn't even need edgeguarding in many cases.

I agree with s2j though...if you don't walk around shielding near edges and just play it safe in the middle, Link's recovery isn't as bad as what it's made out to be (though it is still pretty bad...).

 

[NixxxoN]

.......But its **** short. lots of throws out at very low % means a sure death.

 

[cubaisdeath]

well, distance wise his recovery is by far the worst, but that doesn't mean that all the attributes are equally as bad

 

[asianaussie]

.......But its **** short. lots of throws out at very low % means a sure death.

That's why you don't stray around edges. You have to be about 60-70% near the middle of Dreamland before a throw + an edgehog is guaranteed to kill you, and even then it's likely you can make it back. Most B-throws + edgehogs kill you before 10% if you just stand next to the ledge shielding.

 

[MattNF]

lol wut
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178163

IIRC in that thread pretty much everyone agreed that Link was the worst recovery.

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/appeals/appeal-to-popularity/

 

[G U R U]

I really like this list. I still think Ness should be higher but I'm a 64 noob so what do I know XD

 

[NixxxoN]

What the hell, are you guys suggesting that Links recovery is not the worst?

I thought april fools day was on april

@ cheeseball: sometimes you just can't avoid being at the edges.

@ Uber_Mage: This board is a Ness hate fest lately. Although he was overrated on the old tier list but should be mid tier imo.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

do you play anyone good while you use ness?

 

[MattNF]

What the hell, are you guys suggesting that Links recovery is not the worst?

I thought april fools day was on april

@ cheeseball: sometimes you just can't avoid being at the edges.

@ Uber_Mage: This board is a Ness hate fest lately. Although he was overrated on the old tier list but should be mid tier imo.

Stop posting.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

What the hell, are you guys suggesting that Links recovery is not the worst?

I thought april fools day was on april

@ cheeseball: sometimes you just can't avoid being at the edges.

@ Uber_Mage: This board is a Ness hate fest lately. Although he was overrated on the old tier list but should be mid tier imo.

Link has priority and setups off stage. Also, Link has priority where it matters most, directly when up b'ing for the edge.

Compare that to ness where even though his range is incredibly good, someone can just down air him/down tilt hm and recover and repeat the process over and over again.

Grab the ledge, down air/similar move. Every singe time ness tries to recover.

I still don't think Link's recovery is better than Samus's or DK's due to their range+priority, but it is definitely better than Ness's

 

[NixxxoN]

people "defending" links recovery, this is new
why do you want priority and setups when you can't reach the stage? lol
Im not saying that ness recovery isnt bad, im saying that links recovery is at least as bad as ness.

Main differences with those two recoveries: Ness will try to properly recover 10 times, he will reach the stage in 9 times and he will get edgeuarded 8 times. As for Link's recovery, trying to recover 10 times, he will fail to reach the stage 8 times and the two remaining he will probably get gimped

I think Samus has actually a decent recovery

 

[SilentSlayers]

Reaching the stage is irrelevant if you get successfully edgeguarded. At least Link has the ability to have some priority and grab the ledge, and go from there.

 

[ciaza]

Reaching the stage is irrelevant if you get successfully edgeguarded. At least Link has the ability to have some priority and grab the ledge, and go from there.

What Nixxxon is saying, is that priority counts for crap when you can't even reach the satge. With ness at least he he can reach the stage from a couple of different angles and even hit a good sweetspot if he's lucky.

 

[asianaussie]

I recover a lot with Link. There are a surprising number of options just for getting to the ledge, like waiting until the last possible moment (foils early edgehoggers), rushing (smack em and you can sometimes get back), pulling out a bomb with your second jump then throwing it just before you attack or just the obvious boomerang after second jump for extra protection.

I find Ness easier to edgeguard than Link, but that might just be me.

 

[WOTG]

Link's is better at close range, Ness' is better at far range. I think they're both equally bad.
Link may still have the edge though. Once Ness is off the edge against someone good, that's usually a stock-loss. The priority of Link's up-b recovery makes it hard to edgeguard him sometimes, when hes capable of making it back. And being at a high percentage while edgeguarding link can sometimes have bad results.

 

[DMoogle]

Compare that to ness where even though his range is incredibly good, someone can just down air him/down tilt hm and recover and repeat the process over and over again.

FWIW, Ness' recovery is harder to edgeguard when he's recovering from above/to the side than it is from from below. How much harder is opponent dependent. When recovering from above/to the side, he has a lot more options for angle (and speed/when to fastfall), he can slide onto the stage and not suffer as much landing lag (or sweet-spot the ledge, but that can lead to disastrous results), and he can try to make it so that when his opponent hits him, he hits him towards the stage rather than away (usually as a result of mindgaming with angle).

 

[Frogles]

you guys need to pick ness more often if you're seriously discussing this. he has the worst recovery in any smash game. if he gets thrown off thats stock unless you suck hard. if he somehow makes it back to the edge his options are edge attack, edge getup, or edge roll all of which are bad. he can't ledgehop at all because of how slow is second jump is. if you make it back on stage his recovery has enough landing lag for opponent to whiff a smash and walk up and do another smash/grab/whatever. link actually has some priority and range in his up b (the attack not the distance) and can at least sweetspot the edge and edgehop.

 

[SilentSlayers]

What Nixxxon is saying, is that priority counts for crap when you can't even reach the satge. With ness at least he he can reach the stage from a couple of different angles and even hit a good sweetspot if he's lucky.

No ****, that's what I based my post on? Read it again. I say, even though he CAN reach the stage, it's irrelevant, because he gets easily edgeguarded. At least Link can sometimes reach the edge, and has priority to make it. The only arguement you guys have going is the Ness sweet spot. Fair enough, but it's still edgeguardable (picture a CF doing a dtilt). And it can be risky (even to a good player) to do it, because just a bit too short and you die. It's not the easiest thing to do. But yes, I know good players can do it fairly consistently, but the risk is always there.

 

[Deleted member]

nixxxon being a noob whats new

 

[cubaisdeath]

I didn't know Silent Slayers was on the boards o.O

 

[blaze3927]

What Nixxxon is saying, is that priority counts for crap when you can't even reach the satge. With ness at least he he can reach the stage from a couple of different angles and even hit a good sweetspot if he's lucky.

yeh ness recovery fails, even mnore so than link,
play a ness on ness with sycriptz and youll see, say you get hit after a double jump cancel and you are only just off the edge, wtf do you do? you start the pk thunder and the other player has plenty of time to

hit the pk thunder, spike you, generally just smack you away etc...

so you change tactics and drop a bit so you have more time for the recovery,:
a good pikachu and mario, luigi and kirby can still reach you, if not any characetr has trime to either spike or hit you when your on the way up, plus youll probably begin to panic so your more likely to screw up.

 

[SilentSlayers]

I didn't know Silent Slayers was on the boards o.O

Heh, I just recently got into Smash. Only been playing for a couple months. But I learned really fast. Mostly thanks to help from Blaze (the good SSB TASer).

 

[cubaisdeath]

Heh, I just recently got into Smash. Only been playing for a couple months. But I learned really fast. Mostly thanks to help from Blaze (the good SSB TASer).

yeah, blaze has some really awesome vids. are you actually going to be playing on the regular or just do TAS vids?

 

[SilentSlayers]

I do play regularly. Surprised you havn't seen me, unless you don't.

 

[Superstar]

Main differences with those two recoveries: Ness will try to properly recover 10 times, he will reach the stage in 9 times and he will get edgeuarded 8 times. As for Link's recovery, trying to recover 10 times, he will fail to reach the stage 8 times and the two remaining he will probably get gimped

Dude, that's what people are arguing, Link WON'T get gimped. That UpB is fast and its priority is high, and his ledgegame is a lot better than Ness's. Not to mention you made up those statistics.

I still like Ness and I think people overexaggerate his recovery as a flaw [in other words, his other flaws far outweigh it], but let's be serious here.

 

[cubaisdeath]

I do play regularly. Surprised you havn't seen me, unless you don't.

oh ok, I don't play on kaillera or anything, I just stick to the good ol' console lol, thats probably why I haven't seen you play. thats cool though. do you play any of the other smash games or just 64?

 

[SilentSlayers]

Just 64.

10

 

[cubaisdeath]

ah good ****. stick with the best lol

 

[NixxxoN]

Dude, that's what people are arguing, Link WON'T get gimped. That UpB is fast and its priority is high, and his ledgegame is a lot better than Ness's. Not to mention you made up those statistics.

I still like Ness and I think people overexaggerate his recovery as a flaw [in other words, his other flaws far outweigh it], but let's be serious here.

I used to main him long ago, and hes definitely one of the least used chars on the online community. His recovery is definitely not worse than Link, at least.
From my experience, the best way to recover is:
1- Do a reversed second jump
2- Wait for your opponent to try to hit you when being off the stage and try to spike him if he does.
3- Do a down angled up+b, and you have 2 options: the first one and normal one is to go directly to the floor, and you'll have no landing lag. The second one is to do an angled up+b recovery like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x8AYnyGQhE

All of this being said, i think Link's recovery is pretty easy to edgeguard, using edgehog and edgehog to hit.

 

[WOTG]

Lol Nixxon, that still doesn't change how interceptable his recovery is. Link has better ledge-game than Ness. If Link were to make it to the ledge, he's more likely to survive than Ness will.