The New SBR - Another MK Legality Vote?

[Evenkor]

Here's my issue with MetaKnight:
He's a trump in a game where you pick you're card.
He's an Achilles without an Achilles' Heel.
Basically, he's a character with favorable matchups against any character except for himself. And in a game where people usually play to win, the only logical thing to do is use him. And it's going to keep getting worse as more and more people figure this out. I say the BR at the very least have a vote, and my personal opinion is to ban him until the SB Community finds a solid way to counter him.
Earlier, some said the greater population has troubles doing what is best for itself. I agree, and I feel that with the large amount of people jumping on the MetaKnight bandwagon, there will not be enough time or effort spent learning how to counter him, especially with so many honing his skills even further.

 

[Inui]

Here's my issue with MetaKnight:
He's a trump in a game where you pick you're card.
He's an Achilles without an Achilles' Heel.
Basically, he's a character with favorable matchups against any character except for himself. And in a game where people usually play to win, the only logical thing to do is use him. And it's going to keep getting worse as more and more people figure this out. I say the BR at the very least have a vote, and my personal opinion is to ban him until the SB Community finds a solid way to counter him.
Earlier, some said the greater population has troubles doing what is best for itself. I agree, and I feel that with the large amount of people jumping on the MetaKnight bandwagon, there will not be enough time or effort spent learning how to counter him, especially with so many honing his skills even further.

Meta Knight loses to Snake and goes even with/very barely beats about ten characters.

I and others believe Snake has absolutely 0 bad match-ups, but we're still not calling for a ban.

Every game has to have a best character.

 

[BigLøu]

I do beilive snake has an advantage on mk.


I don't beileve at all though that snake has 0 bad matchups....

 

[AlphaZealot]

Clowsui's New Year's Bash Loser's Finals
Game 1: AlphaZealot (Diddy Kong) vs OverSwarm (Meta Knight): Battlefield
Game 2: AlphaZealot (Diddy Kong) vs OverSwarm (ROB): Port Town Aero Dive
Game 3: AlphaZealot (Diddy Kong) vs OverSwarm (Meta Knight): Distant Planet
Game 4: AlphaZealot (Diddy Kong) vs OverSwarm (Meta Knight): Smashville
Game 5: AlphaZealot (Diddy Kong) vs OverSwarm (Meta Knight): Delfino Plaza

OverSwarm and my's first time playing each other in tournaments. I don't blame the loss on the character he used-he simply was better during our set-it is that simple. I wish others would take that stance when they lose to MK-blame the player for being better, not that character.

OS also lost to Quivo 2-1 in Winner's Semi-finals and then 3-0'd him in Grand Finals set 1 and 3-2'd him in Grand Finals set 2 (making the overall score 6-4 in favor of OS (MK) vs Quivo (TL)).

 

[Inui]

wtf @ Port Town Aero Dive and Distant Planet

Sorry, but I can't even care about those matches at all, lol.

If you didn't get nervous so much, you would win more, mah d00. :D

I wish Quivo won the tournament. He's so beastly with that Toon.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I'm working on it Inui, chewing gum during matches has improved me immensely. That said, you probably saw a few deaths from me where I didn't even attempt a recover. The reason isn't because I didn't attempt it, but because I tried performing the air attack to early/late and nothing came out as a result (sigh). Hopefully I'll just keep improving and work from here.

---

People need to learn to take a challenge. I don't care if I lose to OS. He has far more experience then me placing at the top in Brawl. If you lose to MK (or anybody/any character for that matter), then you should use that lose as a drivng force to get better. Believe me, if you get as good as my Diddy (not hard to do-just play online a bunch and learn his techs-which are, admittedly, as hard as some techs as Melee) is then 90% of MK's in the country won't even be a problem for you, and those 90% are pretty much the reason people want MK banned (because people keep citing Ankoku's rankings, where MK wins at random tournaments).

 

[teh_spamerer]

Why? It's an idiotic argument perpetuated by clearly less-than-informed posters (who are very few and far in between).

Wrong. Jesiah has more Pikachu experience than the vast majority of players and also looks at all the tools both characters have in a matchup without bias.

who cares its just brawl, inui you always seem to say it's a ****ty game yet look how serious you guys take it lol

Get RAAAAAAAAAAAAAPED!

 

[Atomsk_92]

Shush you walking tent

 

[Inui]

You're just mad that he runs the clock on you so much. :D

Do what I did to Lord Knight's Meta Knight with Dedede and you'll win. :]

 

[chillindude829]

I and others believe Snake has absolutely 0 bad match-ups, but we're still not calling for a ban.

yeah, snake has so few exploitable weaknesses, how could be possibly have any bad matchups?

 

[Inui]

yeah, snake has so few exploitable weaknesses, how could be possibly have any bad matchups?

Meta Knight also has exploitable weaknesses.

You can have weaknesses and still be the best character in a game.

 

[chillindude829]

can you point out where i said MK doesnt have weaknesses?

this isnt even an MK issue, you're just ******** if you think snake has no bad matchups

 

[Inui]

this isnt even an MK issue, you're just ******** if you think snake has no bad matchups

What characters are bad for Snake?

If you know what you're doing and camp intelligently, you can win, and the other player will have to do more work than you to win.

You probably think Olimar is bad for Snake because of BlackWaltz, right? I can beat him with Snake. You probably noticed this but, I'll ask anyways. Did you notice that Olimar's roll goes nowhere? That means, with good reaction time, you can kill Olimar with follow-ups from a single d-throw or at least do a lot of damage. You can cover all of his options easily by standing there and shielding.

Simple stuff like that makes Snake able to win any match-up relatively easily, and he forces the other player to do more work regardless.

 

[chillindude829]

actually olimar is not what i had in mind at all

falco and DDD are clearly snake counters, period. others may be arguable, but those two blatantly have the advantage over snake

 

[Vlade]

DeDeDe clearly comes to mind. Others may argue that its either neutral or in snake's favour against falco, but the majority of the falco back room agree that it is slightly in falco's favour.

 

[Inui]

actually olimar is not what i had in mind at all

falco and DDD are clearly snake counters, period. others may be arguable, but those two blatantly have the advantage over snake

Falco is false.

I'll MM your Falco with Snake for $5 next time I see you and prove it just like I did with Keitaro. NJ changed its mind on the match-up and so will MD/VA.

I'm going to blow myself up to 30% so you lose your CG to spike. Then Snake ***** Falco in actual combat and still lives longer.

Dedede is arguable at this point. I shift my opinion from 55/45 Dedede, 50/50, and 55/45 Snake depending on stages and new stuff I find out, but it never goes farther than that.

 

[Deleted member]

You see the problem here is that you think you have to go OOS in order to be good. What if Bum never went OOS? Would you think he'd have no chance? LOL.

I'm just curious as to how you're coming to these conclusions, they don't make any sense.... You've never even played me, you haven't played everyone in NY because not everyone goes OOS. Not everyone is known, not everyone is bad as a result of that.

I don't think I'll be going OOS anyway, because I honestly don't care enough at all, even though my crew is trying to get me to go.

you sound dangerously ********. try reading your post sometime before you hit the submit button. not a personal attack, just saying.

 

[ELI-mination]

I would ask you what specifically prompted that post, purely out of curiosity, but I'm just going to go ahead and assume you're too "dangerously ********" to consider significant at all, which is most likely closest to the truth.

 

[Dabuz]

lol, i love how eli says he doesn't care if people think hes good oos or not and now he is trying to say that he can beat any oos snakes no problem and yet there is no proof either ways, while ive seen eli and he is good we have o proof for this entire conversation, so it should never of even happened

 

[ELI-mination]

Nah dabuz you are mistaken. I'm not making any claims. Inui was saying that there are no good snake players in NY just but how could he know? Plus its not difficult to play snake or most characters on a high level. Thats like him saying there's no good olimar players in NY just because he hasn't heard of any, and he hasn't played you either.

Also, I really DON'T care if I'm considered good by OOS people, lol. I'm responding to this crap for two reasons only:

1: I'm extremely bored right now and I can't find an activity at this current moment.
2: I do draw a small amount of pleasure from laughing at idiotic things like "snake has no bad matchups"

But yea, Snake is def 2nd best character in this game, but he has more difficulty with more matchups than MK does, and thats my point whether or not it sounded that way regardless, lol.

 

[Inui]

I would ask you what specifically prompted that post, purely out of curiosity, but I'm just going to go ahead and assume you're too "dangerously ********" to consider significant at all, which is most likely closest to the truth.

You don't know who UmbreonMow is?

Inui was saying that there are no good snake players in NY just but how could he know?

Only JesiahTEG does anything in tournaments, and he's in the middle of nowhere when compared to the city.

I know because only tournaments matter. If you're not in the tournament scene, you're automatically no threat to any competitive players due to not entering.

 

[ELI-mination]

You don't know who UmbreonMow is?

No I know he's a beast Ness/Zelda player in Melee, lol. Mad respect for that. Just no respect for being called "dangerously ********"

 

[brinboy789]

The casual/non-SBR SWF community voted to ban Metaknight. The SBR + casuals voted 3-1 against banning. By removing from the SBR the casuals who in theory were more likely to vote FOR banning, wouldn't you expect to see an even greater victory for not-banning in a new vote?

this sums up this whole thread

 

[ELI-mination]

I know because only tournaments matter. If you're not in the tournament scene, you're automatically no threat to any competitive players due to not entering.

And I agree with that you're no threat to tournament players due to not entering.... but I don't agree that it has anything to do with how good someone is.

 

[Inui]

And I agree with that you're no threat to tournament players due to not entering.... but I don't agree that it has anything to do with how good someone is.

Their skill is irrelevant and unproven.

Random people don't come out of nowhere and **** tournaments without experience and real training with top players. It just doesn't happen.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Well, with the addition of Wifi it's more likely to happen nowadays than Melee, but I agree that it's very, very, very rare to see that happen. Also, I'm REALLY bad at Brawl right now since I've just been playing Melee lol.

 

[Inui]

Well, with the addition of Wifi it's more likely to happen nowadays than Melee, but I agree that it's very, very, very rare to see that happen. Also, I'm REALLY bad at Brawl right now since I've just been playing Melee lol.

Dude it only takes a few matches to get good at Brawl again after playing Melee. I played Melee for days straight and entered a Melee tournament afterwards twice over the summer. When it came time for Brawl, I was ready after just a few matches.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Lol, idk man. Last night I kept losing to PikaPika! and I've beaten him like the past 9 tournies since summer. I mean, they were just friendlies but still. Well, part of it is cuz I have a new controller and it's hard to break it in...I can't pivot anything, or if I try to turn really fast and tilt/grab, it's hard. I can't like, turn and do anything lol, or I end up rolling for some reason. *shrugs* Hopefully by the 31st I'll be all good though.

 

[Inui]

Regardless, I'm going to **** the balls off of you at that tournament and Trevor and I are going to **** you and Kashif in teams. The only partner Kashif has ever beaten us with is...Mew2King. Tec0 and Bum failed.

Edit: I'm ****** you in Melee too.

GET AT MY ARROGANCE. <3

 

[JesiahTEG]

You'll probably beat us in teams, but keep in mind Kashif's teammate is going from Donkey Kong to Snake. Makes a bit of a difference there.

Second, I'm not losing to your Meta Knight or Snake, so you better choose DDD. Travis* will beat me almost for sure I bet.

How did you lose to Seibrik's Snake? You ran right into his attacks dude. I play way more elaborate than his Snake, but if all I have to do is mash Forward Tilt then I guess I'll just do that.

 

[TheTantalus]

Fox doesn't beat Snake. Even with Fox's crazy disgustingly good u-smash, Snake's u-tilt will kill way before Fox's u-smash, and Snake's kill move is easier to connect and safer.

Snake can edgegaurd Fox with his n-air because Fox's recovery options can't beat it.

Fair enough.

Keitaro thought Falco beat Snake because he usually beats Yes! in that match-up. I said otherwise, and challenged him to a money match.

I win the first match very easily on Yoshi's Island. He then wins on FD barely. I then beat him decisively on Halberd despite an SD.

We money match again, and the first stage is FD, and he barely wins. I then win on Halberd. On Smashville, I somehow forgot to blow myself up, so I got 0 to death CGed and lost.

We money matched again. This time I banned FD and he banned Halberd. This time he got 2-0'd in matches that weren't that close at all.

Simply blowing myself up at the start of each stock with a grenade and C4 at the same time made me win. Falco loses his CG combo/kill. Snake outranges and outprioritizes Falco by a lot and still outlives him significantly despite taking 30% at the start of each stock.

This is really smart and perhaps previous data was compiled based on flat stages (i.e. fd, smashville) where it looks like snake seems to excel on platforms (halberd, battlefield, yoshi's) so I understand and that seems perfectly legit.

Dedede can't effectively approach a Snake that camps a lot. Just jumping from platform to platform dropping grenades and C4 stops CGing and makes Dedede have to take dumb risks in order to get to Snake. Snake's moves have huge range and can punish anything Dedede does. Snake actually lives to higher damage than Dedede in this match-up, often by a lot, because Snake's kill moves are easier to connect and safer.

Most Snake players don't camp hard enough, so they get grabbed and gimped.

Being CGable =/= automatic disadvantage to Dedede.

Agreed. Dedede vs R.O.B. is not that bad of a matchup, in fact, i'd if not for the CG R.O.B. would have favor 60/40 IMO.

Simply camping intelligently will grant Snake the win against all but the very best players.

Mew2King, teh_spamerer, Snakeeee, Shadow, myself, and other reputable players agree that Snake has the advantage against Meta Knight.

Add Plairnkk to that list i do believe, and in the words of chillin "Brawl's engine promotes being as gay as possible" and that is how snake wins. I think I agree with this. I've never really supported Meta-ban, although I don't mind it since it is such a horrible match for R.O.B.

Althought it was book, Inui, it was a good post, you can be a little less detailed and still be as effective at getting your point across. Plank 3 stocked my Metaknight with Snake, and my meta is average at best, but Plank had 0 snake experience and did that, so yeah, i think Snake wins

 

[Inui]

Yeah, ban FD against Falco. I still think Snake either wins or goes even there, but platforms are better for Snake than they are for Falco. I only lost on Smashville and FD and won everywhere else, sometimes by a lot.

 

[JesiahTEG]

I've always agreed that Snake beats Falco. Falco just can't kill him, his grab range is terrible so smart shield camping and spacing Ftilts and grabs properly really wins it for Snake I feel.

In fact I think MK does better vs Snake than Falco does lol.

 

[Inui]

LOL

I might start going Snake against Falco instead of MK because one mistake = 60% if you're MK, while Snake can just never die.

 

[Dabuz]

ban fd against falco? i play oli and if you camp in the middle to your like 20% you can't be cged if you have good di on fd

 

[Deleted member]

I would ask you what specifically prompted that post, purely out of curiosity, but I'm just going to go ahead and assume you're too "dangerously ********" to consider significant at all, which is most likely closest to the truth.

"we are good and don't want to prove it" won't get very far. surely you have better things to do than to defend someone who doesn't need it (bum), and knowing him he doesn't even want the help.

edit: if I play like I did 2 days ago, I can **** literally every poster in this thread @ melee. lol.

 

[Ryan-K]

ban fd against falco? i play oli and if you camp in the middle to your like 20% you can't be cged if you have good di on fd

olimar isn't snake

shocking, I know

 

[Dabuz]

olimar isn't snake

shocking, I know

true true, but if a snake dis correctly on fd after like 20% if hes in the middle he can escape earlier or if he does get caught he can do that di towards stage edge thing

 

[ELI-mination]

Edit: Whatever, this is getting boring.

 

[Inui]

true true, but if a snake dis correctly on fd after like 20% if hes in the middle he can escape earlier or if he does get caught he can do that di towards stage edge thing

Why take ~60% from a CG combo instead of just 30% from blowing yourself up?