The New Match-up Chart

[hamburglar]

i would say fox is definitely >> over puff. puffs approach is too much of a disadvantage in the matchup despite the multiple z2d combos on fox. plus the weight difference is too crucial. usmash on puff at 60 percent!?

 

[Surri-Sama]

I find it funny that weight even came up.

Jiggly will dominate fox once she gets a hold of him. with basically every % (not only 60%) leading to an easy 0-death through Throws...Uairs....tilts and Rest (General Jiggly stuff)

Jiggly also has an easy time gimp fox even if the combo couldn't finish in death. she can poke recovery with Nair or Fair or Bair really.

Hyrule:

MAYBE
Fox >> Jiggly


Dreamland

EASY
Fox > Jiggly


I think Fox > Jiggly would more fairly rep the scenario

 

[Battlecow]

I don't play the matchup all that much, but it seems to be a >> situation to me.

Those shines

Those lasers

That jab-Usmash kill from frickin' insanely low percents

Jiggs has good combos on fox, but to me, it seems like fox shuts down jiggs' approach with his lazers and whatnot.

Again, I usually play the matchup as Jiggs, and while I like my jiggs, she's not the tippity-toppity best jiggs in the world. So better people might have better strategies for dealing with what I feel is an overwhelming matchup for the puffster.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

I need some match up advice on pikachu, that guy is a nightmare.

What are his weaknesses, and how do I exploit them?

 

[th3kuzinator]

Spoiler

His recovery is really bad, so try to gimp him all day

His tech roll is atrocious. Try to hit him to the ground and follow the tech. Besides that, there is not much else you can do but play smart. Pika has a great recovery and air game so you are going to need to out smart him to win if he is the same skill level as you.

 

[Darth Rancorous]

i would say fox > jiggs. with jiggs, u have to be patient, air camp to avoid lasers, jabs, upsmashes and whatnot, and punish when the opportunity arises (i.e. 0-death combos when fox misses a z-cancel )

as for pikachu advice, i would say be patient and play smart. wait for the pikachu player to make the first move and go from there and follow isai's philosophy "Don't Get Hit!" haha

 

[Surri-Sama]

Be aware of Uair & Bairs hitbox.

Dont jump into Utilts (this might seem obvious but you dont know how many players do this)

Control the center of the stage ( if pikachu throws you off...oh shi...)

95% of the time pika's will rush you to your doom. This is time to camp and as kuzi said "out smart" the player

 

[Olikus]

What to do against the rat you ask? Well, lets just say Pikachu needs his own tier.

That was the smart quote of the day folks. You all learned something today.

 

[Battlecow]

I always go aggro on pikas. Little ***** don't expect it. *****ES DON'T KNOW 'BOUT THE DOUG KICK!

 

[dandan]

I always go aggro on pikas. Little ***** don't expect it. *****ES DON'T KNOW 'BOUT THE DOUG KICK!

If we ever play, try falcon/doug kicking my pika... please

 

[greenblob]

I'm voting Fox >> Jiggly. Fox shuts down Jiggly's approaches, and lasers prevent you from camping effectively. All you have to do with Fox is take control of the middle of the stage (one disadvantage Fox has is Jiggly can gimp him easily), laser camp, and wait for openings.

 

[blaze3927]

im pretty sure fox can jab lock jiggly at 30% aswell,

 

[Blue Yoshi]

I'm easily saying Fox >> Jiggly, reasons already mentioned somewhere earlier in this thread (too lazy to re-state them... and too tired to do so as well lol).

Basically, if Fox knows the matchup and doesn't get hit by Puff's "don't get hit" moves (dair, grab, etc), there's almost nothing Puff can do. If Fox doesn't know the matchup, he's combo bait for Jigglypuff. But the bottom line is if someone knows the matchup, then it's easy Fox advantage, and I'd put it at Fox >> Puff.

 

[ballin4life]

Disagree. Puff can hover in the air forever and has tons of combos on Fox. Puff's combos and edgeguards are easily enough to make this not >>

 

[Surri-Sama]

your reason for saying fox is >> is if fox knows the game, he wont get hit...thats not a good reason lol

if puff knows the fox their playing and DIs out of every drill and grabs all the time its >> for jiggly now :o

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

I agree with Blue Yoshi

if puff knows the fox their playing and DIs out of every drill and grabs all the time its >> for jiggly now :o

That's kind of applicable for both as Fox can DI out Giggs combos as well, so in that case would keep being >> for Fox.

 

[Surri-Sama]

my point was that his statement actually bears no meaning on the match-up lol

 

[Blue Yoshi]

And my point was people are saying "Puff just needs to combo Fox, and then she wins", and I basically took that as if fox doesn't know how to play against Fox, then she can combo him to death.

My point was that a Fox that knows the matchup won't let this happen very often. Fox can easily out-camp Puff, and can counter some of Puff's approaches.

 

[Battlecow]

If we ever play, try falcon/doug kicking my pika... please

Can't do it in 6 frames. It's a very precise technique.

 

[ballin4life]

If we're just going to assume that Fox never gets hit by nair/dair/grab then duh that's a pretty big advantage. What is Fox supposed to approach Puff with if Puff air camps (if Puff stays high it's much easier to dodge lasers as well)? If you miss an uair you will get comboed so that's not a good idea. Fox has to bait jiggs to come down so that he can start a combo.

Any matchup where one mistake has a pretty good chance of leading to death by combo or gimp is probably not a >> matchup.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Any matchup where one mistake has a pretty good chance of leading to death by combo or gimp is probably not a >> matchup.

I heavily disagree, being a GaW main in Melee. GaW can 0-death/gimp Falco, Fox, Falcon, and several other characters, but just gets destroyed by Fox and Falco. Also, Roy vs Jigglypuff (reverse up-B). And some brawl match-ups.

Anyways, back to smash 64, I can settle for the matchup being Fox > Puff. I do believe it to be >> (well... > and 3/4's... close between the two, but more towards >>), but I'll be fine if we agree to >.

 

[ballin4life]

I highly doubt that one mistake from fox/falco leads to death in that case. Especially considering how technically demanding those characters are.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

GaW chaingrabs Fox Falco with up-throw to 55% unless they land on a platform (stuff can happen from there), or they go off the stage (fair/nair to edgeguard). He can also down-throw chaingrab them at any percent, though it is guaranteed to work around 70% and up.

GaW has an insanely hard time getting the grab against a good Fox/Falco, but if he does, then unless there's something that prevents it, it usually leads to an edgeguard position (f-tilt beats both up-B and side-B, while GaW's off-stage edgeguard options are massive as well, so it usually results in a stock). Several of GaW's moves can lead to a grab (d-tilt, u-tilt, jab, Dair at low percents if the landing hitbox connects, and other moves).

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

Inb4^^^

Anyways, back to smash 64

Between two players with the same level, the one using Fox against Gigglypuff has the advantage, it'd be Fox >> Gigglypuff.

 

[blaze3927]

matchups assume high level of play right?

Fox approach>>Jiggs approach
Fox-fast air and grond movement
Jiggly-slow air and slow ground movement

Fox-laser, grab, bair, fair, dair, dtilt
jiggly-teleport, grab, bair,fair, dair

only advantage for jiggs i see is teleport.

fox combos>jiggs combos
(once again high level of play)
lets null both characters drill as di is ezpz,
fox has utilt,dtilt,shine , jab, fair, bair which are all viable combos on jiggly

Jiggly has fthrow, utilt, uair, rest...other moves are way too % dependent, neut B, bair, nair, fair.

Admittedly with jiggly one fthrow at 40% plus can lead to a uair to rest combo, but good luck approaching with grab, and you'll need even more luck to approach with uair.

laser camping>>air camping

pretty self explanatory, fox's air movement is too quick to be effectively air camped by jigglypuff.

 

[ballin4life]

lol at fox combos > jiggs combos

edit: also I present my video evidence

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkfmDCThMjg

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

So I think it's pretty clear.
xD

 

[blaze3927]

Combos

0:37
i see a fox jab on jiggly at 52% in the tent lead to death in one grab and one uair
one to fox

0:52
i see fox handed on a platter to jiggs at 30% in the air, jiggs manages one hit.
0 to jiggs

1:14
I see a dair from jiggs succesfully di'd out of by fox, and only a little di, but it still doenst combo into anything
0 to jiggs

1:22
I see jiggs go utilt -bair - rest at 68% in the tent
1 to jiggs

1:46
Jiggs gets an grab on fox at 9%, should lead to a death? no, because utilt was too early, and jiggs wasnt in a optimal position on the pl;atforms
still 1 to jiggs

2:22
jiggs gets an grab because of a mistake by fox to z cancel. leads to standard jiggs z2d
2 to jiggs

2:36
epic di fail. no two ways about it.

so jiggs outspaced fox and won...congrats

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LIoyfRClGs

looks like jiggs is limited to fthrow for combo starters, and it took a missed z cancel to get it in boom vs tiger.
shorter combos used starters
utilt
dair (drill) another mistake required, di fail.

Fox has more effective combo starters, and is less dependent on % / location.
jab
dair (less effective because of di)
dtilt
utilt
grab

anymore matches to get evidence from? im having a hard time finding jiggs vs fox matches.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Fox played this matchup very well until he hit the tornado... then just walked into everything. It's as if he gave up trying at that point. There are several obvious mistakes which lead to death, or a possible death/high damage combo.

 

[Battlecow]

Hey guys, if boom can win in a matchup, it must not be that bad.

thus I refute it.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

if you guys want, I can do request matches for my youtube(since I never upload). Although I need people to play p2p with heh.

 

[ballin4life]

Combos

0:37
i see a fox jab on jiggly at 52% in the tent lead to death in one grab and one uair
one to fox

I don't count that as a significant combo. It's three hits and tent situational.

0:52
i see fox handed on a platter to jiggs at 30% in the air, jiggs manages one hit.
0 to jiggs

So even though boom messed up an easy edgeguard opportunity like this, he still won handily ... what does that tell you?

1:14
I see a dair from jiggs succesfully di'd out of by fox, and only a little di, but it still doenst combo into anything
0 to jiggs

Again, missed opportunities.

1:22
I see jiggs go utilt -bair - rest at 68% in the tent
1 to jiggs

1:46
Jiggs gets an grab on fox at 9%, should lead to a death? no, because utilt was too early, and jiggs wasnt in a optimal position on the pl;atforms
still 1 to jiggs

2:22
jiggs gets an grab because of a mistake by fox to z cancel. leads to standard jiggs z2d
2 to jiggs

2:36
epic di fail. no two ways about it.

so jiggs outspaced fox and won...congrats

But I thought the whole point was that Fox automatically outspaces Jiggs?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LIoyfRClGs

Not sure what this URL is meant to show since you didn't comment on it...

looks like jiggs is limited to fthrow for combo starters, and it took a missed z cancel to get it in boom vs tiger.
shorter combos used starters
utilt
dair (drill) another mistake required, di fail.

Aerials often link to fthrow. There wasn't DI fail on the drill, he did DI it. Much more "DI fail" on the utilts that followed.

Fox has more effective combo starters, and is less dependent on % / location.
jab
dair (less effective because of di)
dtilt
utilt
grab

anymore matches to get evidence from? im having a hard time finding jiggs vs fox matches.

In what universe are you going to approach jiggs with a dtilt? It won't even combo unless Jiggs is at super low percent anyway. Grab only starts combos in the tent, and jiggs is less susceptible to tent combos than most characters at low percents.

Utilt works like twice at low percents and it doesn't usually give you enough hitstun to start a fair chain.

Fox's dair is easier to DI than Jiggs's dair

Jab works at mid percents and higher - mostly for comboing into usmash or sometimes repeated jabs (which can be DIed btw). However it's tough to land a jab on Jiggs because she plays an aerial game.


Fox's only good combo on Jiggs is fair chains, ending with usmash.

Fox played this matchup very well until he hit the tornado... then just walked into everything. It's as if he gave up trying at that point. There are several obvious mistakes which lead to death, or a possible death/high damage combo.

So your argument is that he stopped trying?

Maybe it's just not that easy to play against jiggs?

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Well... basically, my point is if someone stops caring about a match and plays poorly, that doesn't help us dictate what the match-up is.

I'm too lazy to go through the match and analyze everything, but when I started, it basically came down to both made a few significant mistakes, and Fox stopped caring soon after taking Puff's first stock.

 

[ballin4life]

What's more likely - that he randomly decides to stop trying or that he just lost?

By this argument you could claim anything. Any evidence can be countered by "Oh he wasn't trying"

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

if you guys want, I can do request matches for my youtube(since I never upload). Although I need people to play p2p with heh.

How many delay frames are willing to play with?

 

[blaze3927]

the first stock of the match tiger clearly had it down packed,
and if you havent seen someone start a combo with dtilt then i'd be very very surprised.
and jigg's di is way easier to di out of than fox's :/
Fox does not automatically outspace jiggs, but if used properly (like tiger's first stock) fox can be near impossible to reach.
IMO if jiggs drill has more than three hits its a di fail.

I think we need more fox vs jiggs matches to analyse this further.
we should get some recordings and start uploading them.

 

[ballin4life]

I use dtilt all the time ... against other characters. Usually I use it after an aerial, but at all but the lowest percents an aerial pops jiggs up too high for dtilt. Also dtilt won't even combo well against jiggs except at really low percents anyway because it will send her too far

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

How many delay frames are willing to play with?

3 frames and lower

 

[Blue Yoshi]

What's more likely - that he randomly decides to stop trying or that he just lost?

By this argument you could claim anything. Any evidence can be countered by "Oh he wasn't trying"

There were several clear bad mistakes done by Fox... and there were very few lasers used compared to the start... and the entire playstyle was completely different.

I'm not saying this match doesn't help at all, but it's hard to use it effectively due to several key mistakes made during the match.

 

[ballin4life]

My entire point is that a few mistakes will really kill you against jigglypuff.

Also I have two more videos of my fox vs jigglypuff that I win pretty handily ... guess I better not upload them