The New Match-up Chart

[The Star King]

and jigg's di is way easier to di out of than fox's :/

Not if the Puff knows how to properly combo, which pretty much means avoiding using D-airs to give the opponent less of an opportunity to DI.

And even with Puff's D-air, her aerial mobility and floatiness allows her to chase an opponent's DI much better than Fox can. If the Puff simply blindly D-airs without making any attempt to watch the DI, then sure, maybe Fox's combo game is better.

 

[ballin4life]

Kinda disagree with the first point there - I think Fox combos are difficult to DI out of as well.

The second point is what I was trying to say. It's easier to DI fox' dair than jigglypuff's dair.

 

[SSBPete]

i agree with ballin in most cases. i also think its easier to DI fox's drill because whenever you DI jiggs' drill you end up behind her and get utilted or infront of her and get fthrown. either way you get your *** combo'd.

boom i think you should upload more matches too. i dont really care who against though

 

[ballin4life]

Boom should upload some more matches against Dylan_Tnga

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

dylan tnga is a legend. Kinda lazy on recording. I'll ask Shade or someone if they want to record.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Kinda disagree with the first point there - I think Fox combos are difficult to DI out of as well.

The second point is what I was trying to say. It's easier to DI fox' dair than jigglypuff's dair.

I find Jigglypuff's d-air only really DI able before the last 2 hits (right before the hit with knockback).

I do thing this matchup its a >> for Fox. What move does Jigglypuff actually have vs. Fox's b-air and f-air.

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

^^^
Not much really, Fox's bair is better that puff's but the gigglypuff's avility to float/multi-jump makes the fair (if used correctly) slightly more useful that Fox's.
But it'd still be a >> for Fox as he can use the laser combined with almost every aerial to ****.

 

[th3kuzinator]

I think fox's fair chains much easier than puff's does.

Also it is much easier to chase DI in jiggs dair than in Fox's. I would know, i play against many kb players.

 

[rpotts]

Also it is much easier to chase DI in jiggs dair than in Fox's. I would know, i play against many kb players.

This is because jiggs has the fastest x aerial acceleration. I wouldn't call it a property of her dair, more just her horizontal air speed is better for it than fox's.

oh ya fox's fair certainly chains better than jiggs because his falling speed/dash speed is faster. Jiggs fair chains have to mostly be in air, without landing and dashing in between hits, unlike fox's.

Fox>>The puff

 

[Peek~]

So I finally figured out how to read this chart

Ness matchups are actually pretty accurate, nice job gentlemen

 

[Yobolight]

I would like to challenge a couple of the Ness matchups.

Kirby > Ness to Kirby >> Ness
Explanation Ness has no way to approach here and gets punished HARD.

Ness < Donkey Kong to Ness > Donkey Kong
Explanation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHPQQeLhTR8
Donkey Kong just gets eaten alive on Dream Land.

Ness =Jiggly to Ness < Jiggly
Explanation: She is just too light for Ness to do fair chains. Plus any character that can float will neuter Ness's DJCs approaches

Ness < Captain Falcon to Captain Falcon = Ness
Explanation: Ness can easily 0HKO him on like half the maps

 

[clubbadubba]

agree with kirby >> ness

ness < dk to ness < dk? Fix please.

I'd say if anyone has the advantage its ness, but 50/50 is good imo.

falcon too good for ness. They can both 0toDeath each other, but falcon has much better approach options. Plus edgeguard advantage goes to falcon

 

[Yobolight]

ness < dk to ness < dk? Fix please.

Sorry, fixed

falcon too good for ness. They can both 0toDeath each other, but falcon has much better approach options. Plus edgeguard advantage goes to falcon

Ness can do some creative DJCing to get in on him especially on Peaches Castle.

Ness can edge guard Cfalc just as easily as Cfalc can edge guard him (99% of the time).

Cfalc might be too good warrant an even match up, but it is definitely Ness's best match up in the top tiers (Mario onward).

 

[Battlecow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUvSGfoiOq4

oh look, some players are better than others

ness and falcon can do nasty stuff to each other, true, but that's the case with most matchups in this game. falcon has better range and speed and etc. and so forth.

 

[Yobolight]

Posting a vid of Boom or Isai for the most part has zero implications on match ups, because they always have far more skill than their opponents.

 

[prisonchild]

how about a video with both of them?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deXTuQ9dMhA

 

[ciaza]

jiggs is one of the ****ing easiest characters for ness to fair chain lol

can be done from literally 0%

 

[Battlecow]

Posting a vid of Boom or Isai for the most part has zero implications on match ups, because they always have far more skill than their opponents.

Read your post again, then read mine again.

 

[Yobolight]

@Battlecow fair enough. My point is that these god tier players defy logic. Isai won Apex with LINK!

Peek also seems to be making a lot of technical errors.

As far as youtube Ness goes Firo > Sima > Peek > Everyone Else.

Also, if Ness didn't have DJC would he be worse than Samus?

 

[asianaussie]

boom won apex...

falcon vs ness

creative djcing has little to no implication on approach because ness is still strictly limited, and any benefits he gets from the dual-platform structure of peach's are nullified by falcon's u-air getting a similar boost - as long as the falcon is experienced in the ness matchup and knows roughly the maximum ranges ness can approach from, the game is his if he reacts correctly

re: dk vs ness

dk's grab as a concept says 'lol' to all of ness's djc stuff except b-air, which is soundly beat (or traded with, which in this matchup is much worse for ness) by his own b-air - so while you can get pretty 15 hit u-tilt > stuff combos, one b-throw > well-placed b-air/up-b = edgeguarding and probable death for ness, so i cannot in good faith put this as anything better than ness = dk, ness < dk is probably right

re: ness vs jiggs

idc about this matchup but ciaza is right about f-air chains, they're just doable at low percents rather than mid-percents as vs mario/luigi/whatever, also ness' u-air is ridiculously amazing vs jiggs

 

[Battlecow]

@Battlecow fair enough. My point is that these god tier players defy logic. Isai won Apex with LINK!

Peek also seems to be making a lot of technical errors.

Isai lost apex with link. He could've won with high-tiers.

Peek's a really good player, much better than meowmeow (even though meowmeow is LEGIT AS **** and a true bro)

 

[prisonchild]

Isai lost apex with link. He could've won with high-tiers.

that is to be seen...

 

[asianaussie]

if you watch isai's 12-char matches with boom, you'll understand bcow is right

 

[prisonchild]

i've seen three of their 12 character battles and i know isai destroys.

i was more saying that at both genesis 2 and apex 2012 isai hasn't used high-tiers so it's not very likely he will in the future

 

[ballin4life]

As far as youtube Ness goes Firo > Sima > Peek > Everyone Else.

LOL

sort by youtube wins, become expert on judging players

hint: might want to adjust for quality of opponent

 

[meowmeowrainbowkitty]

(even though meowmeow is LEGIT AS **** and a true bro)

<3 you, BC.
Haha, I don't think the vid with Firo and I should be used as any evidence except for the fact that good players > noobs like me. I'm pretty sure when that vid happened, I'd just started teching consistently lol. My mindset was that my grab range should null djcs lol, but that didn't work at all.

BUT back to the topic.

 

[Yobolight]

LOL

sort by youtube wins, become expert on judging players

hint: might want to adjust for quality of opponent

Don't misrepresent me like that. Firo has beaten a lot of quality players with Ness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMLR-t8o7Bk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRmkaaxDU6k&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgtNfAsLRI0

If Sheermadness, Nintendude, and Jel arn't good players... then we have a different definition of what a "good player" means.

Sima beat Isai's Samus with Ness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvC6ih3EzTc

Peek beat Surri-Samma's Pika and Kirby.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq1ohTmoICU

These are all great players. Firo just happens to have the must impressive record. They all have good tech skill.

 

[asianaussie]

iirc peek is a very creative player and a lot of people don't know how to deal with his stuff

sima can be disregarded because (J) ness is high tier (idk about top, but definitely high-ish)

smash 64 has about as many tournament statistics as competitive tomahawk-throwing, and any results from less than a tournament/MM standard shouldn't be used to judge matchups, really

therefore, theory bros is out and about in full force for this game

 

[Yobolight]

iirc peek is a very creative player and a lot of people don't know how to deal with his stuff

sima can be disregarded because (J) ness is high tier (idk about top, but definitely high-ish)

smash 64 has about as many tournament statistics as competitive tomahawk-throwing, and any results from less than a tournament/MM standard shouldn't be used to judge matchups, really

therefore, theory bros is out and about in full force for this game

Japanese Ness isn't THAT much better. The recovery still sucks (ever so slightly less). The other changes to Ness aren't that big. Unless the lack of DI in the Japanese version helps Ness (I can't see how it would) they are fairly comparable.

Also Firo's video against Jel is Apex 2012.

Peek is certainly creative, but I think his ledge guard up B antics actually hurt him more than the help. His use of up smash is better than any other Ness for sure though.

 

[asianaussie]

uh

(J) ness' recovery forces you to respect it: the hitbox/priority/whatever is much bigger, it does not end before ness does his little tumble, it beats basically any move up until ness is in freefall state and ness doesn't pause for his mid-battle poop after landing from it

ness' u-tilt lets you get like, 2 more reps on every single character AND it's basically impossible to DI out of, AND it adds even more damage, relevant to the u-air power change

ness's u-air is amazing in (J), it feels even more invincible (or it's bigger idk, or maybe im imagining things), KOs like 20% earlier (juggles less effective but this is somewhat mitigated by u-tilt change), you clearly have not played ness in both games if you don't notice this

if im wrong on any of this it's cuz it's been awhile, but im pretty sure that ness is significantly better in (J)

 

[ballin4life]

Don't misrepresent me like that. Firo has beaten a lot of quality players with Ness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMLR-t8o7Bk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRmkaaxDU6k&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgtNfAsLRI0

If Sheermadness, Nintendude, and Jel arn't good players... then we have a different definition of what a "good player" means.

Sima beat Isai's Samus with Ness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvC6ih3EzTc

Peek beat Surri-Samma's Pika and Kirby.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq1ohTmoICU

These are all great players. Firo just happens to have the must impressive record. They all have good tech skill.

All I'm saying is you can't point to Firo vs people that aren't nearly as good as Firo and then point to Peek vs good online players as a basis for comparison. Peek's win/loss results are obviously going to be skewed by the competition.

You also can't point to Firo vs someone not nearly as good as Firo as a basis for a matchup.

Disclaimer: Sheer and Nintendude are very good obviously (though I thought people were saying that Nintendude is rusty now, idk). Jel isn't bad obviously but I don't think he's on Firo's level. But what do I know about any of these guys.


Oh, forgot to mention I was also loling at the inclusion of Sima - a player who we haven't seen a video of in the past 5+ years.

 

[ballin4life]

I would like to challenge a couple of the Ness matchups.

Kirby > Ness to Kirby >> Ness
Explanation Ness has no way to approach here and gets punished HARD.

Ness < Donkey Kong to Ness > Donkey Kong
Explanation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHPQQeLhTR8
Donkey Kong just gets eaten alive on Dream Land.

Ness =Jiggly to Ness < Jiggly
Explanation: She is just too light for Ness to do fair chains. Plus any character that can float will neuter Ness's DJCs approaches

Ness < Captain Falcon to Captain Falcon = Ness
Explanation: Ness can easily 0HKO him on like half the maps

Actual serious post:

I can live with Kirby >> Ness, although I kinda like pwning kirby in this matchup

I think DK > Ness is fine but I'm not super experienced with DK or this matchup.

Jiggs is my secret Ness counter. Only matchup where Jiggs has decent range on her aerials lol

Falcon > Ness. Ness too easy to kill, and Ness doesn't really combo Falcon as well as you say (especially not relative to how effective Falcon combos are against Ness, you know due to that whole get Ness off the edge once with a combo and then just do some edgeguards thing). Can't fair chain falcon so the only think you can do is uair/utilt juggles -> knock him off the edge (if he's right next to the edge already then you can combo to spike, but it's a bit more situational than Falcon's lol uairs.

Or consider the stage matchups - Ness's combos are not nearly as effective on a big stage like Hyrule since he has fewer opportunities to spike combo. And on DL, while Ness has some good death combo potential, it pales in comparison to Falcon's DL auto death combos from pretty much everything.

So Falcon wins the punishment game by a significant margin, and Falcon also has a slightly easier time approaching due to his speed.

 

[ciaza]

if we're assuming top level play dk definitely > ness. especially if the other player can't break out of cargo hold quickly. dk's bair is freaking formidable as ****, combined with bthrow and easy upB edgeguards should give any ness a hard time. ness definitely has his advnatages too and can capitlise the **** out of dk when he messes up, but i'd give it 60:40 to a good spacing dk.

i'd agree with what the MU chart says on all the other match-ups, the only one i would agree with yobo on is that jiggs might have the edge over a ness, but even then it's mad close.

 

[Yobolight]

Oh, forgot to mention I was also loling at the inclusion of Sima - a player who we haven't seen a video of in the past 5+ years.

Wrong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU6i0F1Qc7s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4FaCyKC3E8&feature=endscreen&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJw0-rc5Vo4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=MgYRbPtAVSU

Most of them you have to type his Japanese name in.

 

[clubbadubba]

Firo ~= peek, at least at the times they've posted vids. Nintendue wasn't rusty in apex vids, and was same level as firo at the time. Beating jel is like beating me, and if you can't do that then you def shouldn't be considered in tier discussions.

Moral of the story: ness sucks



O and *** (japanese, apparently the first 3 letters of the word is a slur) version CANNOT be used for american tier list, its a completely different game

 

[Yobolight]

Firo ~= peek, at least at the times they've posted vids. Nintendue wasn't rusty in apex vids, and was same level as firo at the time. Beating jel is like beating me, and if you can't do that then you def shouldn't be considered in tier discussions.

Moral of the story: ness sucks

I really don't know much about Jel's skill. I knew he posted here and went to Apex so I assumed he is good.

All the Ness hate on these boards annoys me. He is like funnest character to play with. The game is mostly skill and not character choice.

 

[clubbadubba]

All the Ness hate on these boards annoys me. He is like funnest character to play with. The game is mostly skill and not character choice.

Very true. Player skill has much more to do with it than char selection. However, there is a reason why most top players will list ness as one of their worst characters. And why ness is not very successful in tournies. Even at apex, firo was forced to go with fox and falcon instead of ness. A ness main forsaking ness at a major tourny, I mean if that doesn't show how useless ness is I dunno what does

 

[kys]

I used to be a Ness main. I love Earthbound. And he sucks at smash64.

Boom really needs to his 3 minute "Ness can't recover" video and throw it in the index.

 

[Olikus]

Wrong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU6i0F1Qc7s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4FaCyKC3E8&feature=endscreen&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJw0-rc5Vo4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=MgYRbPtAVSU

Most of them you have to type his Japanese name in.

cool. I didnt know sima still played. Thanks for sharing =)

 

[The Star King]

Was gonna post later because I don't have time to make a response as detailed as I want right now, but I know people are gonna say things I disagree with and I'll wish I brought up some point earlier (even though I'm not really bringing up points in this post, just throwing out opinions), blah blah blah.

So:

I definitely agree with Kirby >> Ness
I agree with Jigglypuff > Ness
I think Ness = Falcon is plausible, somewhat
I probably disagree with Ness > DK