The Most Complex Characters?

[mariofanpm12]

why exactly is sonic so complex? he seems basic and easy to play to me, and doesn't have any amazing ATs.

 

[colored blind]

Lucas is pretty complex...Wavebouncing, Zap Jumping, Magnet Pulling, etc. Pretty much just as many ATs as Yoshi (apparently) and also has a weird second and third jump.

Not saying he's the most complex. I just thought he deserved some mention when I opened up the Lucas boards and didn't know half the terms they were using.

 

[Deathcarter]

Samus is the most complex character to play AGAINST.

It is hard to remember that she can autocancel all of her aerials so you have to remember to keep your shield up. She can use those homing missles for zair or charge shot setups so you have to be on your toes for Samus WHILE dealing with the missles. If you are off of the edge, you have to find a way to get around her zair or dair while trying to get back to the stage. Samus is very hard to gimp due to her floatiness and midair options which include bombs, bomb jumping, zair, dair, missles, charge shot, and upb. And she has a good ledgegame to boot.

She is very complex to play as as well.

Honorable mention goes to Olimar. You have to keep track of his Pikman as much as the Olimar your fighting has to.

 

[Judge Judy]

Well Olimar has some complicated play at high levels but at low levels he's a pick-me-up-and-play other than his very bad recovery. Marth seems like he'd be very easy and his atks are pretty straightforward, but you need very good spacing to do anything with him. Lucas is pretty straightforward but he's got some very advanced play and some tricky ATs to work with. Pit has the most ATs out of anyone and he needs them all cause he's all about def and setups. Mario is supposedly straightforward but just about all his chains and setups require a redicious amount of percision in timing. Diddy isn't too tricky but his bananas do require some skill to set them up to your advantage.

 

[TomTom]

Sonic in my opinion. Why you ask? No priority barely any killing moves. Slight lag on moves. But mainly the priority. The hardest to recover for me is Ness or Lucas. Lol I never recover with those two

All that says to me, really, is that Sonic is a weak character with low priority moves - it does not necessarily have a complex move set and play style. It would be hard to claim, for instance, that Captain Falcon was a complex character due to the fact he's fairly limited.

I must admit, playing with a character like Sonic could present an interesting challenge for the reasons you stated, but it's not what I would consider complex in the context of this discussion.

 

[Sosuke]

Counting is still hard for some people? Just joking guys.

Ok fine, excluding ATs. Yoshi has a freakishly good 2nd jump and a lacking upB special. This makes recovering with Yoshi a specialty, since this will mean he will probably have to use his upB (normally 3rd jump)before his 2nd jump, and some people find that awkward. You have to secure the ledge with eggs before you can fully recover with your second jump, otherwise you run the risk of getting gimped during the 2nd jump. You do all of this while you have to remember that Yoshi has superarmor frames during his second jump, so you have to be ready to return an attack if you are lucky enough to get hit during the armor frames. You also have to make sure you don't tap up and jump BEFORE you use the egg toss, because eggtoss requires pressing up and b, but it may register the up as a jump and therefore completely ruining your chance of recovering. Basically, recovering with Yoshi has to be a well thought out process.

Super armor frames. I know them. You know them. Yoshi has 'em during his 2nd jump. Who else has that?

Yoshi is also the only character that can't jump out of his shield, so that adds a little. He also has a fairly slow roll so being reliant on rolls won't work when playing Yoshi.

Another specialty of Yoshi is his eggtoss. Yoshi's eggtoss is definitely a move that takes some time to use, and takes a bit more time to master. It's not like samus' homming missles, cuz you actually have to aim. it's harder to use than PK thunder cuz the controls of the egg toss are far more complex. IMO Yoshi's eggtoss is probably the most complex projectile in the game.

Spiking is somewhat hard to do with Yoshi, as you have to sweet spot it for success. missing the sweet spot would send the enemy back and upward, giving him/her more chance to recover.

There you have it, the reasons why Yoshi is the most complex in the entire game. This is WITHOUT ATs of course. I didn't state them though since I didn't need to. Yoshi is complex even without ATs, and can be absolutely ridiculous with them.

If you read this and still thing Yoshi isn't the most complex, then please, give me reasons why other character are more so.

top that L_! seriously.

I'm not going to bother with AT's. I'm sure we have more/ ours are better.
Toon Link has 2 recoverys. Chain and Up-B. Dertain angles and distances are needed for both.
Thats eggtoss thing, youd have to be an idiot to mess up on that and jump. Also, this is why people B-stick.

Yoshi's D-smash out of shield? Heard of that? Been around since Melee. Nothing to complain about there.

Spiking.....Do I need to start?...alright fine. If you miss a spike with Toon Link, YOU DIE. Even at 10% even at 0%, you DIE. Oh, And you also have to sweetstop this attack. Yup, that risky. And the spiking frames are INCREDIBLY short compared to the rest of the move (which sends opponents up).Now, if someone airdodges yoshi's Spike(s), you can just return to the edge. I die if I miss one. Theres no chance of recovery. Unless your holding a bomb which is about to explode (VERY hard to setup). Meaning you have to have VERY good setups for this move. Most TL's use Bair chain to Dair. Smart? Maybe. You can airdodge the dair at the end. This is why I use projectiles to setup. And bomb -> Dair is hard if you don't really know how to do it. the bomb sends them either up-left, or up-right. if you don't know exactly which way its going to send them (which is VERY hard to know), you miss the Dair and die.
Also, unknown to most, Toon links bombs and Up-B are stagespikes. Yup. Think about that. Can Yoshi stagespike someone when they're at 0%? I don't think so.

Yoshis eggtoss? Comparing them to one of the HARDEST moves to land in the game? PK thunder is 1000 times harder to hit with then eggtoss. Anyone will agree with me on this. Not even complex. About only a LITTLE more complex then Ness/Lucas's Up-B.
And Yoshi has ONE projectile. Toon Link has THREE. One that you can use before you hit the land to cut the lag from the move. One that goes in all variates of directions AND RETURNS. Not to mention if you know how to use it, GOES THROUGH THE LEVEL. And bombs? You can hold them. You can set them on the level. You can stagespike with them. You can place one or two on the level and grab the edge. Ultimate edge defense? Yup. Oh and something recent, bomb juggling at the edge.

I don't see how long-lasting superarmor frames make a charecter complex. That means its easy to avoid getting hit. Now short ones, I understand (Olimars down B anyone??)

And yet, Olimar is still more complicated.

 

[smashbot226]

Meta Knight.

Spoiler

Seriously, either Olimar, Poke Trainer, or R.O.B.

Has anyone played a R.O.B. expert?

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Yea I have

Meta Knight.

Spoiler

Seriously, either Olimar, Poke Trainer, or R.O.B.

Has anyone played a R.O.B. expert?

I played DullRazor online
personalyl I think Olimar takes the most skill to use

 

[AlphaZealot]

Diddy Kong.

He requires more technical skill than most Melee characters.

 

[Ishiey]

IC, Diddy, Olimar are probably at the top. ROB sort of, but not so much. PT is complex but its mostly just knowing when to switch between the 3.

IC with all the desynching possibilitie, it hurts my brain just thinking of it. Diddy with the bananas alone is complicated, because they can switch posession and all that crap, it becomes a match all about stage control. Olimar, I mean come on, all the pikmin have different properties, the whistle armor, and that one random 'pikmin desynch' that I still haven't seen anyone do on purpose, if someone gets all of that down, it would be ridiculous.

 

[Lutukor]

IC, Diddy, Olimar are probably at the top. ROB sort of, but not so much. PT is complex but its mostly just knowing when to switch between the 3.

I agree with all of these, they are all complex characters. It's more than just tilts and aerial smashes.

 

[smashbot226]

Diddy Kong.

He requires more technical skill than most Melee characters.

I laughed at this.

Way to go Alpha.

 

[Deleted member]

Pokemon Trainer. He is kewl.

Spoiler

But seriously, the reason is because he swiches between 3 pokemon.

 

[Aura Power]

Tbh Olimar is the most complicated of my mains, plus I find Lucario's mastery of the limit of his reach with his attacks to be hard to put down

 

[Phelix08]

I'd have to agree with the general consensus that Olimar is the most complicated, but I'd also like to put in a good word for Snake. Ya, he does have a strong direct attack game to fall back on, but to use him well you have to be planning your use of mines and the missile and grenades all the time. I've always considered having to be planning as you play (setting up mines and grenades or keeping track of pikmin) to be harder to do than learning things (ie all of pt's movesets and who to use what pokemon against).

 

[Talazala]

I'm not going to bother with AT's. I'm sure we have more/ ours are better.
Toon Link has 2 recoverys. Chain and Up-B. Dertain angles and distances are needed for both.
Thats eggtoss thing, youd have to be an idiot to mess up on that and jump. Also, this is why people B-stick.

There are a handful of Yoshi mains that don't turn off tap tump, but I guess your right. It's not that hard. Toon-links Recovery is not harder though, and Yoshi has two pretty much inverted way of reovery, up B first and then 2nd jump or 2nd jump and then up B. Up B doesn't cover that much length and can't knock back people as much as most character upB's do. Also, he can use his up B recovery as many times as he wants, but only helps him the first 2 times. so you have to decide when would be best to use them.

Yoshi's D-smash out of shield? Heard of that? Been around since Melee. Nothing to complain about there.

Yes I have. He still can't jump out of his shield though, but I guess he doesn't really need the jump when he can just d-smash. I suppose my "Yoshi can't jump out of his shield" argument isn't as useful anymore.

Spiking.....Do I need to start?...alright fine. If you miss a spike with Toon Link, YOU DIE. Even at 10% even at 0%, you DIE. Oh, And you also have to sweetstop this attack. Yup, that risky. And the spiking frames are INCREDIBLY short compared to the rest of the move (which sends opponents up).Now, if someone airdodges yoshi's Spike(s), you can just return to the edge. I die if I miss one. Theres no chance of recovery. Unless your holding a bomb which is about to explode (VERY hard to setup). Meaning you have to have VERY good setups for this move. Most TL's use Bair chain to Dair. Smart? Maybe. You can airdodge the dair at the end. This is why I use projectiles to setup. And bomb -> Dair is hard if you don't really know how to do it. the bomb sends them either up-left, or up-right. if you don't know exactly which way its going to send them (which is VERY hard to know), you miss the Dair and die.

You got me there.

Also, unknown to most, Toon links bombs and Up-B are stagespikes. Yup. Think about that. Can Yoshi stagespike someone when they're at 0%? I don't think so.

I don't see how that adds to how complex Toon-link is but that does sound pretty useful

Yoshis eggtoss? Comparing them to one of the HARDEST moves to land in the game? PK thunder is 1000 times harder to hit with then eggtoss. Anyone will agree with me on this. Not even complex. About only a LITTLE more complex then Ness/Lucas's Up-B.
And Yoshi has ONE projectile. Toon Link has THREE. One that you can use before you hit the land to cut the lag from the move. One that goes in all variates of directions AND RETURNS. Not to mention if you know how to use it, GOES THROUGH THE LEVEL. And bombs? You can hold them. You can set them on the level. You can stagespike with them. You can place one or two on the level and grab the edge. Ultimate edge defense? Yup. Oh and something recent, bomb juggling at the edge.

1000? A little pushed but whatever. PK thunder is not that hard to hit with. You have control of where it goes, so left=left, right=right, etc. Yoshi's eggtoss isn't that hard, but takes practice if you want to hit people in the air, and practice for controlling how much power there is in the throw so it doesn't fly over the enemy's head.

I don't see how long-lasting superarmor frames make a charecter complex. That means its easy to avoid getting hit. Now short ones, I understand (Olimars down B anyone??)

I could argue this, but I would have to include ATs so my arguement would be invalid. Then again, Yoshi's super Armor frames are pretty hard to defined, because of the length of the jump and only half of the frames have armor. I'm pretty sure it's not constant either, so you have to time when your enemy hits, to the frames. Let's say he gets hit during frame 7, he gets hit and he's fine. Let's say he get's 25, he gets hit and takes knock-back.

And yet, Olimar is still more complicated.

But you've made so many valid points for Toon-link! When I compaired your stated ideas and compare them to the other ones about Olimar, TL looks a bit more complicated. All I'm hearing from the people saying Olimar is: It's hard to count pikman, and He has super armor in his downB. THATS IT. I will not accept Olimar is the most complex until I here more reasons.

My responses are in bold

Out of interest can some one tell me a few of Toon-link's ATs?

 

[boy7190]

As a lot of people have already stated: I think Olimar is th emost complex for me to play.

I don't know if this falls into being complex or not but I also find that he is one of those characters at least for me who's success varies greatly by the stage and other characters he's brawling against. I know you're probably like "duh. those factors affect every character" but what i mean by that is most characters you can take into any stage against any other character and feel generally equal but with Olimar I feel like he gains a huge advatage in some scenarios while he doesnt stand a chance in others.

I hope that makes sense, and obviously thats just what i've experienced while playing.

 

[Sosuke]

My responses are in bold

Out of interest can some one tell me a few of Toon-link's ATs?

AT's: (just the ones of the top of my head)
Short Hop Double Arrow,Short Hop Bomb Drop,Chain Cancel, Bomb juggling (working on that one), quickdraw, bombslide I guess, my WHOLE "edge game" thread, quickdraw, yada yada yada.


Yoshis Up-B doesn't have to do damage, its not intended to kill people. It's mostly meant to stop others from gimping your recovery (which it does well). Toon Links recovery isn't hard. He just has more options. Yoshis UP-B helps more then twice if you takes breaks between the uses. I'm surprised someone who mains Yoshi doesn't know that. Besides you make it back to the stage with your second jump alone like 90% of the time.

Not 100% But its freaking hard to land. It's slow/ laggy/ ********. Idk about other people, but I never found eggtoss hard to land. So what if it goes over their hear? throw another one. It's a fast move.

Yoshis super amour should be easy to define if you play as him/ play against him frequently.

Those two things are enough. The order of the Pikmen is enough.

I responded to whatever I fealt like responding to.

 

[ShaolinAce]

Olimar, Snake and Sonic. Aonic you have to be 2 moves ahead and always anticipate. Snake and and Olimar are nuff said.

 

[Tenki]

Sonic in my opinion. Why you ask? No priority barely any killing moves. Slight lag on moves. But mainly the priority. The hardest to recover for me is Ness or Lucas. Lol I never recover with those two

Horrible reason.

why exactly is sonic so complex? he seems basic and easy to play to me, and doesn't have any amazing ATs.

The playstyle is a bit complex in that (at least, at some level), you do feints or whatever to create openings. But that takes alot of matchup knowledge and a general sense for opponent reactions and reading.

That's about the complexity of it.

Then you take into account move cancels. Not very complex, but the Sonic playstyle is just a bunch of mindgames and reading.



Nah, Sonic's not too complex to play, compared to characters like Diddy, Snake (erm, grenade/stage control techniques), and IC's (not specifically in that order).

However, he's not a simple character to play as. It isn't just spindash into your opponent>aerial>???>profit lol.

 

[Talazala]

AT's: (just the ones of the top of my head)
Short Hop Double Arrow,Short Hop Bomb Drop,Chain Cancel, Bomb juggling (working on that one), quickdraw, bombslide I guess, my WHOLE "edge game" thread, quickdraw, yada yada yada.

Interesting. I suppose Toon-Link out ATs Yoshi. Yoshi only has Dragonic reverse, Egg lay foot stomp (not a very feasible move), Egg toss slide, edge cancel egg, a fairly new stage spike, and a chaingrab.

Yoshis Up-B doesn't have to do damage, its not intended to kill people. It's mostly meant to stop others from gimping your recovery (which it does well). Toon Links recovery isn't hard. He just has more options. Yoshis UP-B helps more then twice if you takes breaks between the uses. I'm surprised someone who mains Yoshi doesn't know that. Besides you make it back to the stage with your second jump alone like 90% of the time.

I know but only the first two are actually gonna help when recovering. The rest don't really give you enough of a boost to be usable. but you can still use them off course.

Not 100% But its freaking hard to land. It's slow/ laggy/ ********. Idk about other people, but I never found eggtoss hard to land. So what if it goes over their hear? throw another one. It's a fast move.

It's not very fast, and if it goes over their head it means they're already too close to pull off another one, unless they just stop moving altogether, And hitting characters that are in the air above you can be a bit hard.

Yoshis super amour should be easy to define if you play as him/ play against him frequently.

Fine. :\

Those two things are enough. The order of the Pikmen is enough.

Why is the order of pikman a big deal? I know red can take fire attacks, Yellow take electric attacks, Blue are lighter, purple are heavy and have greater knockback, and White poisin enemies and are fairly light. Is there a reason why there is such a big deal of getting the order of which they come out?

I responded but it's asking for 10char.

 

[Sosuke]

I responded but it's asking for 10char.

You basically agreed with the stuff I said so I needn't go on.

And yes, olimar is more complex for those reasons. And the whole trajectory thing.
I KNOW it's only a little, but those stupid little things are enough.
I'd like to say Toon Link, but I can't.

 

[Wafflez]

Link or Yoshi.

Link has a whole array of ATs to keep track of, and most people don't know how to really use him because he's a rather technical character. I'd say that's rather complex.

Yoshi, because for all intents and purposes, I can't begin to understand how you fight with him.

 

[Union of Darkness]

Ganondorf. Hurrrr

Seriously though, you want to know how precise you have to be with characters like Ganon or Bowser? Fo'get about it!

 

[Fatmanonice]

I'd personally say:

1. Ice Climbers (they are a completely different character when you know how to effectively chain grab with them. Without them, I'd personally say they'd be below average.)

2. Pokemon Trainer (Having to learn all three characters playstyles/matchups, dealing with fatique, and trying to create oppurtunities to switch them out is no easy task)

 

[PCHU]

Why does no one say Ike?
He's really hard to play with.
I mean, it's hard to make a hit connect with him, and when you do, it doesn't really matter simply because you're just going to have to hit them again.

But you have to be quick with Ike, and that's a small problem.
But I've found a way that involves quickdrawing almost everywhere to make him seem faster.
The problem is that sometimes the quickdraws connect, and I don't want them to.

 

[Talazala]

You basically agreed with the stuff I said so I needn't go on.

And yes, olimar is more complex for those reasons. And the whole trajectory thing.
I KNOW it's only a little, but those stupid little things are enough.
I'd like to say Toon Link, but I can't.

Dude why not. It sound to me like Toon Link is the most complex now. Until, that is, someone else comes along and posts another small wall of text explaining why another character is more complex.

Seeing Toon-link's ATs and such actually has me thinking of maining Toon Link... as well as Yoshi

 

[Adriel]

Pokeymon Trainer

It's like playing the actual pokemon game!

 

[AlphaZealot]

I laughed at this.

Way to go Alpha.

Having played Melee extensively....

Its true. Diddy Kong requires more tech skill than most Melee character, exceptions being: Fox/Falco/Samus/some Peachs (steam rolling)/Falcon/IC's/and maybe one or two more characters. Before you comment, go learn to play Diddy, whose "wavedash" ala dribbling, has one extra button push than Melees wavedash (4 buttons instead of 3) + control stick movement for pivoting that is hard/precise as hell (plus L-canceling on SideB's, rocket barrel canceling, stutter steps, double short hop airs (so just pretend the second press of the Cstick/A button is the same as pressing the L-button in Melee)).

 

[Snail]

Why is the order of pikman a big deal? I know red can take fire attacks, Yellow take electric attacks, Blue are lighter, purple are heavy and have greater knockback, and White poisin enemies and are fairly light. Is there a reason why there is such a big deal of getting the order of which they come out?

The order is a big deal because it is absolutely essential to Olimar's game. You have to keep track of your line constantly, and adapt your playstyle to it. Of course most pikmin can be used for most moves, but for optimal damage, knockback and survivability you will have to pay attention.

Did you know, for example, that Olimar's tether can stage spike only with purple and white pikmin at the end? This means you may have to whistle in the air to get one of those two pikmin at the end of your tether. To do this right, you'll have to know what position the white and purple pikmin are in, and adjust the number of whistles accordingly. Did you know you can chaingrab certain characters to about 30% but only with certain pikmin? Have a purple in line during an upthrow chaingrab and you're screwed.

Aside from the obvious elemental resistances, Pikmin also have different angles while thrown, different attack properties and other nifty things to them. Yellows have a ghost hitbox on aerials, for example. And you can't lose track of your line in a pinch, because an upsmash with a white is a wasted KO opportunity and it could be a while until you get another one. Do an upthrow with a blue pikmin because you thought a purple was up next and you'll have wasted another opportunity. You have to pay attention, constantly.

Because of the fact that you have to keep track of your opponent's movements and your pikmin line at the same time, Olimar is complex. However, I still feel the Ice Climbers are more complex due to the variety of chaingrabs, desyncs and manoeuvres they can perform and the fact that you have to worry about getting seperated all the time.

 

[TheDuplexDuo]

The most complex I would say are these, not in order btw;

1. Olimar
2. Ice Climbers
3. Pokemon Trainer
4. Shiek AND Zelda
5. Samus AND Zero Suit

Generally those with odd twists or duel movesets. People should really alternate between Zelda and Sheik. Also between Samus to Zamus, it's like an charater swap mid game, good for bad samus match ups.

Hmmmm... in fact I would say Samus is the most tricky. Rather technical even with Samus alone, and with Zamus you have to be very precise with the spacing.

 

[Hype]

What about falco.
t
1. Silent laser: I think you have like 1 frame to do it
2. chain grabbing: It's easy but, all the sheenanigans you can can do with it arent (revearse boost grab, Dash attack cancel etc.

 

[Snail]

What about falco.
t
1. Silent laser: I think you have like 1 frame to do it
2. chain grabbing: It's easy but, all the sheenanigans you can can do with it arent (revearse boost grab, Dash attack cancel etc.

I have no clue what a Silent Laser is, but anyway. I've never quite understood the point of all the nifty chaingrab tricks when you can just do the normal one and follow it up with a dair. It's easy as pie and very effective, screw reverse boost grabs. Dash attack cancels... I personally don't think they're hard really. You just gotta get used to the timing which takes about... one hour.

I admit, Falco is more technical than most characters in Brawl because of SHDLs, Laser Locks and stuff like that, but I wouldn't really call him the most complex character in Brawl.

 

[Sosuke]

Dude why not. It sound to me like Toon Link is the most complex now. Until, that is, someone else comes along and posts another small wall of text explaining why another character is more complex.

Seeing Toon-link's ATs and such actually has me thinking of maining Toon Link... as well as Yoshi

Well if someone who mains Olimar and actually knows stuff about him objects to me, I'll lose the argument.
And I don't like looking stupid.
But fine w/e Toon Link is most complicated.

 

[Diddy King]

I'm gonna be a homer here and pick Diddy. He's sort of an unorthodox character to use (the bananas).
Lucario and PT also.

 

[Snail]

Well if someone who mains Olimar and actually knows stuff about him objects to me, I'll lose the argument.
And I don't like looking stupid.
But fine w/e Toon Link is most complicated.

Olimar is more complicated. ._. But I still think IC are even more complex.

 

[TomTom]

I'm gonna be a homer here and pick Diddy. He's sort of an unorthodox character to use (the bananas).
Lucario and PT also.

Diddy is certainly more complex than he first appears. At good levels, players can really use the 'banana game' to their advantage and it can be a precise act to juggle. I've also heard the arguments for Pokemon Trainer before, but I'm interested as to why you put Lucario as one of the most complex characters. Can anyone back up this argument?

 

[Platformations]

Ganondorf is most complex.

Seriously... try to actually USE the fatty.

 

[smallwolf24]

I've been hearing ZSS is the most complex x_x

 

[da K.I.D.]

but I'm interested as to why you put Lucario as one of the most complex characters. Can anyone back up this argument?

as someone who plays lucario, i can honestly say... no.

but on the real, sonic is stupid difficult to use, i really think sonic has less really good players for him than any other character. you have to work for every hit you get with him. and getting a kill below 150% is nothign less than a godsend