Legend of Zelda The Milk Bar [Archived]

[Dragoon Fighter]

People actually consider this good game design?

Yes and no, on one hand the old games really did not have a choice in the matter and it can be outrageously annoying. On the other hand...admit it...think back to Alttp, you enjoyed running around aimlessly lost in the dark world trying to figure out what on earth to do next... It was fun... come on, you know you want to admit it!

 

[finalark]

On the other hand...admit it...think back to Alttp, you enjoyed running around aimlessly lost in the dark world trying to figure out what on earth to do next... It was fun... come on, you know you want to admit it!

No, I found it annoying and not fun. If I have to resort to Game FAQs just to figure out where the game wants me to go next we call that "bad game design." (Note that I didn't in ALLtP because I don't even think the site was around when I first played through it).

Aimless wondering should be optional for those of us who want to explore the world, but if you just want to get to the next dungeon then it shouldn't be a requirement. That's just a form of artificial game play lengthening.

 

[ZIO]

Like I said, it's all a matter of preference, and how the developer handles themselves.

I'm playing Dragon Quest 9 and loving every minute of it, and it really is much like an RPG of the SNES/PS1 era. Classic turn based battling, going from point A to point B, grinding if needed, and stocking up on items buying new equipment in the newest town. The team you play with are all your own.

And look at it. It's the top selling Dragon Quest game in NA. i think that VA, while a good addition, is not a requirement. There are still games today released without it and do well.

 

[finalark]

I'm playing Dragon Quest 9 and loving every minute of it, and it really is much like an RPG of the SNES/PS1 era. Classic turn based battling, going from point A to point B, grinding if needed, and stocking up on items buying new equipment in the newest town. The team you play with are all your own.

I actually like the DnD-esque style of old JRPGs in which you plan out long-term strategies for turn based battles and item stocking and all of the character customization in many of them. However, I didn't like DQ9 because of all of the grinding I had to do to get anywhere. To me, grinding is just a form of artificial game play lengthening. I didn't get very far, but maybe one of these days I'll give the game another chance.

And look at it. It's the top selling Dragon Quest game in NA. i think that VA, while a good addition, is not a requirement. There are still games today released without it and do well.

It's also the only DQ game in the US to come bundled with a demo for FFXII.

Seriously, how many people do you think bought the game for Dragon Quest? Or how many people bought Zone of the Enders not for the MGS2 demo? Or how about Crackdown and Halo 3?

And name me ten non-downloadable good games released within the past five years that weren't on handhelds that didn't have voice acting.

 

[ZIO]

The DQ game with the FF12 demo was DQ8, son.

The one I speak of was on the DS.

And many a game has some sort of "Gimmick" to lengthen a game. Side scrollers can have bad enemy placement, RPGs might require grinding, Platformers might throw in more impossible jumps, and playstation games can have LOADING TIMES.

Also - you limit me so with listing 10 games. Why not throw in the Wii while you are at it, since i can probably do so with that console, alone.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

No, I found it annoying and not fun. If I have to resort to Game FAQs just to figure out where the game wants me to go next we call that "bad game design." (Note that I didn't in ALLtP because I don't even think the site was around when I first played through it).

Aimless wondering should be optional for those of us who want to explore the world, but if you just want to get to the next dungeon then it shouldn't be a requirement. That's just a form of artificial game play lengthening.

I only used an FAQ for Alttp three-four times, once for that magic cane thing. Once after I defected ganon I wanted to know what I missed. And the Ice dungeon at the dark worlds lake, I forget the fourth time though (might of been another dark world dungeon, yes thoughts dark world dungeons are F****D up and that is why I love them they are not only are they awesome but fun because it is so rewarding when you go "YES I WON FINALLY AFTER TWO YEARS".) ahh...I love Alttp.

Admit hard puzzle games are fun.

 

[finalark]

The DQ game with the FF12 demo was DQ8, son.

The one I speak of was on the DS.

This only shows how little I know about DQ.

Okay, disregard everything I just said about DQ9.

And many a game has some sort of "Gimmick" to lengthen a game. Side scrollers can have bad enemy placement, RPGs might require grinding, Platformers might throw in more impossible jumps, and playstation games can have LOADING TIMES.

True, but that doesn't mean it's okay. The PlayStation one is pretty funny, though. Thank God you can install games on the PS3 to eliminate loading times.

Also - you limit me so with listing 10 games. Why not throw in the Wii while you are at it, since i can probably do so with that console, alone.

Go nuts, the only ones I can think of:

- Warioware Smooth Moves
- Twilight Princess
- Muramasa

.... yup. I'd say Mario Galaxy but that does have some (minor) VA in it. And I wasn't particularly impressed by NSMB Wii so... yeah.

Admit hard puzzle games are fun.

Difficulty is not always fun in my eyes.

 

[finalark]

EDIT: Ignore this post.

 

[ZIO]

Well, fortunately, the quality of a game isn't based solely on your opinion alone, and you really called out 4 of the 10 i was gonna say. You leave me at 6.

I'll do on another time because I must go to bed for work in the morning.

 

[SkylerOcon]

You say you don't want Zelda to be more cinematic but this is exactly what you're describing. Cutscenes take control away from the player, and force you to, in essence, watch a poor imitation of a movie for a couple minutes. How the characters talk is irrelevant to the gameplay. Personally, I'm baffled that people are looking forward to the story of Skyward Sword when it's clear that they are trying to revolutionize the gameplay.

Heyyy, look who's putting words in my mouth! I never said I wanted more cutscenes or that I wanted more story. I just want better cutscenes and a better story. Nintendo has no reason to cut corners and ignore what has become an industry standard because of tradition.

In fact, I'd even go as far to say that this heavy focus on cutscenes (that more or less started with Final Fantasy 7) is holding video games back as a medium. Video games can do something that no artistic medium can, and that is utilize player interactivity with the medium. By their very existence, pre-rendered cutscenes take this away, and instead try to ape other mediums like film.

I agree! Cutscenes are bad, but required in some cases. Sometimes, to tell the story, you need cutscenes. Ideally, every game should be going the Mass Effect route.

[QUOTE[Link isn't a typical fiction character. He's our avatar. Constructing a personality around him would make the series much like every other game that's out now. And often times that doesn't work. [/QUOTE]

So making the main character a character would make the series too much like every other game? I'm pretty sure there's a lot more things uniquely Zelda than just Link not talking. At least, I hope there is.

In Grand Theft Auto 4, the main character has this whole super serious plotline and characterization, where he is remorseful and hesitant about killing people. The cutscenes harp on this point over and over again. Then guess what? After the cutscenes are over, what do we do? Go on a rampage and murder hundreds of innocent civilians and cops. Oh no, now Niko's acting out of character! Do you see what I'm getting at?

GTA4 was overrated! Now where does this relate to Zelda or Nintendo again?

Besides, what kind of personality would Link really even need? He's the kid that saves the world. Why do you need more? Do you want him to have the angst and whininess of the Final Fantasy protagonists? Do you really need a couple of voice acted lines that confirm that, yes, he DOES want to save the world? The Zelda series is archetypal by nature, as a means to identify with everyone and to focus on gameplay over story.

I know it's archetypal by nature. I still want Link to actually be a character rather than an empty, green shell.

Which is what games are about...or they used to be. If games like Heavy Rain become the norm than I fear that true gaming is dead.

That was pretty much interactivity with the story at its best - yes, it was a glorified QTE at points, but it was great at others.

 

[Spire]

Well Skyler, Nintendo doesn't want Link to be a fully fleshed out character. Why? Because they want people of all ages to fill the void that is Link. If Link was given a specific personality, then it could (and would) alienate a certain demographic, be it the younger generation, the middle generation, or the older generation. Why the Zelda games continue to thrive so well is because Link is a void. The hero in green is an archetype for the player.

What they need to do is add the option to change Link's primary hand, gender (or maybe not because relationships with characters such as Zelda would change and dilute the story), and facial features so that it still feels like Link, but can be customized to the player's desire. That would further bond player and avatar to the world of Hyrule and give a great deal of replay value. Link does not drive the story, the other characters do. Voice acting wouldn't hurt the rest of the game, but leave Link alone, period. Bad voice acting greatly hurts a game, but on the rare occassion that good voice actors are used, it can certainly help a game. Dialog trees don't always work. While you're deciding what the player says, you're still limited and can't express your true feelings, thus creating a personality conflict between you and the protagonist. Even if you get to edit what they look like to your desire (as seen in Bioware's games), it doesn't save the fact that you can feel alienated by the limited choices in dialog. The fact that Link is all action and not dialog shows exactly what Nintendo cares about: gameplay. Don't fight it, accept it.

Also, a mass amount of dialog can ruin the mystery of the lore behind Zelda. That's part of the atmosphere in every game. There are little bits of unwritten history here and there throughout the series that is never fully explained through dialog because that would ruin it. Gamers would be stripped of their freedom to explore and analyze using their own intellect. On top of that, I'd feel robbed if they gave the characters in Zelda accents and voices that I didn't feel they deserved. If Link spoke and had a british accent, I'd cringe.

Actually, Link has spoken audibly in Wind Waker. He says, "come on!" to Medli and/or Makar in the Earth and Wind Temples.

 

[Kingdom Come]

Guys i"m not gay!!!!!!!!

BUT, no seriously.

I don't know why but this looks like a 50-50 thing. Link has no voice acting for now. Deal with it!

I don't know why it bothers you. If you had your dream choice, who would voice Link? This is the part that would piss people off more than anything.

 

[Luigitoilet]

Hey wow a no content nonsense post from Kingdom Come! What a surprise!

 

[SkylerOcon]

Uh, what?

 

[Lore]

Guys i"m not gay!!!!!!!!

Since you didn't explain yourself, I'll just assume that you're coming out of the closet and not making a joke about WW Link. Congratulations! ^_^

But seriously, try to add a bit more detail to your posts, lol.

I agree with basically everything that Spire has said so far, so just imagine me saying it with a british accent and more vivid adjectives.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I finished Spire's post, started to read Kingdom Come's post and got confused.

 

[StealthyGunnar]

ARgh, is it so hard to understand?

Link has never really had voice acting. Because of this, he has developed a 'personality', if you will. If Link were to have voice acting in Skyward Sword, it would shatter our idea/thoughts about Link. I just think it would ruin the game, personally.

 

[finalark]

Link has never really had voice acting. Because of this, he has developed a 'personality', if you will. If Link were to have voice acting in Skyward Sword, it would shatter our idea/thoughts about Link. I just think it would ruin the game, personally.

Link doesn't have any personality (baring WW Link), at all. If Nintendo were to implement a dialog tree in which we could choose his personality (think Mass Effect, Knights of the Old Republic, Jade Empire, ect.) then that would easily work.

It's not like Nintendo doesn't have the money to do it.

 

[Kingdom Come]

Why do we always bring up "Nintendo has the money"? Everybody knows this, it should go without even saying.

I really think every point possible has been made. So seriously why still argue about this unless your going to turn this into a debate thread where there are 2 sides and whoever can make the most valid argument wins. Oops, randomly typing leads to good idea.

Anyways, Link has the personality. Not in any of the 2d games though.

OoT, MM, WW, TP, PH, ST. Play through those games and tell me he doesn't have a personality and we can argue even harder than Spider and Scholar.

 

[StealthyGunnar]

Link doesn't have any personality (baring WW Link), at all. If Nintendo were to implement a dialog tree in which we could choose his personality (think Mass Effect, Knights of the Old Republic, Jade Empire, ect.) then that would easily work.

It's not like Nintendo doesn't have the money to do it.

The fact that Link doesn't talk is what makes the game worth playing. It's just, if he did start talking, he'd never be the same green hero that we'd come to know and love. If he was given voice acting, he would have a definite personality. The reason that no talking works in games is because the person playing it can give the hero whatever personality they want.

 

[Kingdom Come]

It's just, if he did start talking, he'd never be the same green hero that we'd come to know and love.

I LOL'D at this statement.

Oh, and according to your sig you like Chipotle.

Well guess what Freebirds > Chipotle. And, yes I have eaten a Super Monster Burrito. And yea, I felt like **** the rest of the day.

 

[StealthyGunnar]

I LOL'D at this statement.

Oh, and according to your sig you like Chipotle.

Well guess what Freebirds > Chipotle. And, yes I have eaten a Super Monster Burrito. And yea, I felt like **** the rest of the day.

**** off. CHipotle ftw. LOL all u want, u know im rite.

 

[Kingdom Come]

NEVAR!!!!!

Freebirds has more variety and more flavor than Chipotle. You know this!!!! Give in to temptation!!!!!

 

[Phantom7]

Anyway...

I agree with what Spire said. If you've ever played through OoT and named yourself by your actual name, it helps you understand why voice acting is unneeded in Zelda.

 

[Kingdom Come]

Did y'all know that song by Coldplay "Viva la Vida" was sorta inspired by Zelda?

 

[finalark]

OoT, MM, WW, TP, PH, ST. Play through those games and tell me he doesn't have a personality and we can argue even harder than Spider and Scholar.

In OoT and MM any and all personality is simply bare minimum, while he does have quite a bit in WW and it's spin-offs. TP though? Na.

I agree with what Spire said. If you've ever played through OoT and named yourself by your actual name, it helps you understand why voice acting is unneeded in Zelda.

I should try that, it's been a long time but I'm not going to say that a game from 1998 is going to make my change my mind about Zelda needing voice acting. I mean come on, it's an industry standard these days.

 

[Kingdom Come]

Yea TP. He seems to fall in love with Midna and that one chick at the beginning. He also like freaks out about Epona. And he is lazy when he turns wolf if memory serves me correctly.

 

[finalark]

Yea TP. He seems to fall in love with Midna and that one chick at the beginning. He also like freaks out about Epona. And he is lazy when he turns wolf if memory serves me correctly.

Falls in love with Midna? What game were you playing?

Anyway, that's, as I said, bare minimum and does not constitute a personality.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Falls in love with Midna? What game were you playing?

I am not going to speak for Kingdom come but I have a guess as to the game he could be playing... Legend of Zelda: Fan shipping... Do to illogical physiologically disturbing content this game is only for people 18 and older (Which is why it is not well known.)

 

[finalark]

Fan shipping

Oh yeah, shippers.



Those guys scare me.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Oh yeah, shippers.



Those guys scare me.

Why do they scare you? there not really all that scary.....

 

[finalark]

Why do they scare you? there not really all that scary.....

The insane ones that will tare you to pieces if you dare enjoy something for something other than wanting two of the characters to get together?

Or how about the vicious fangirls who will burn your soul if disagree with them?

 

[Kingdom Come]

No, once Midna turns into her true form. Link drops his jaw. Like ****......

Twilight Princess.

 

[finalark]

No, once Midna turns into her true form. Link drops his jaw. Like ****......

Thinking someone is "hawt" =/= falling in love.

To me, anyway.

 

[Creo]

Thinking someone is "hawt" =/= falling in love.

To me, anyway.

This is absolutely correct. Love is "to each his own", truly, but this is not. And if anyone thinks so, they need to do some soul searching.

Now, Midna and Link(Midna at the very least due to the ending)do "love" each other, it's just not in a passionate way I believe.

I honestly doubt Miyamoto will allow Link to talk, and at the best, it'll likely be something around the WW minimal for every character. Miyamoto clearly doesn't want/emphasize it in his game creations(I know Anouma is directory), and majority of fans on't either(yes, that does generally count).

Like I said before, I prefer RPG/Adventure style games with no VA'ing(this again), as I seem to enjoy those games less, so I'm with the majority on this one.

 

[finalark]

Now, Midna and Link(Midna at the very least due to the ending)do "love" each other, it's just not in a passionate way I believe.

I have to agree here. It's not a "I want to marry you" sort of love, but more of a "I would die to protect you" sort of love.

Like I said before, I prefer RPG/Adventure style games with no VA'ing(this again), as I seem to enjoy those games less, so I'm with the majority on this one.

I'm sick of this VA VS. no VA debate so I'll just say that using a game from 2001 that's by a completely different company as evidence is not a good argument. It's like saying that there shouldn't be any more 2D games because they'd all look like Pong.

But yeah, I will admit that Square's voice acting generally sucks, but this is also due to the fact that their writers can't write.

 

[Spire]

Since you didn't explain yourself, I'll just assume that you're coming out of the closet and not making a joke about WW Link. Congratulations! ^_^

But seriously, try to add a bit more detail to your posts, lol.

I agree with basically everything that Spire has said so far, so just imagine me saying it with a british accent and more vivid adjectives.

Hehe, yeah my grammar is sloppy in the wee hours of the night, and when I'm frustrated and ranting like so, it can end up being fairly limited

I LOL'D at this statement.

Oh, and according to your sig you like Chipotle.

Well guess what Freebirds > Chipotle. And, yes I have eaten a Super Monster Burrito. And yea, I felt like **** the rest of the day.

Dude.

Super Monster Burrito. Freebirds is so awesome, better than Chipotle and Mission Burrito put together.

In OoT and MM any and all personality is simply bare minimum, while he does have quite a bit in WW and it's spin-offs. TP though? Na.



I should try that, it's been a long time but I'm not going to say that a game from 1998 is going to make my change my mind about Zelda needing voice acting. I mean come on, it's an industry standard these days.

Dude, industry standard doesn't mean ****. HD graphics is an industry standard, but did Nintendo go that route? No. Instead they spent their cash on motion control and now they've made almost more in revenue than the PS3 and 360 combined. Nintendo has a different agenda than the typical standards. They set their own standards, which is what sets them apart. Rather than comparing Zelda to other adventure/puzzle/RPGs on competing systems, they compare it to other Nintendo games and/or games like Monster Hunter Tri.

 

[Kingdom Come]

I had everything on the Super Monster Burrito. I drank Water.

I didn't eat for the rest of the day..........

October 11th 2010. I'll be there again.

EDIT: The only thing that Chipotle has on Freebirds is that the Sour Cream and Guacamole doesn't cost $1.50 extra.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

The insane ones that will tare you to pieces if you dare enjoy something for something other than wanting two of the characters to get together?

Or how about the vicious fangirls who will burn your soul if disagree with them?

*gasp* How dare you say such horrible things! :flame: AS A RESULT, I SHALL BURN YOUR SOUL. :flame:

Joking aside they can not be all like that, that is only the extremist, right? Extremist in any thing is bad, right? RIGHT?

 

[Kingdom Come]

No.

10chars.