The "Metaknight should/will be banned" thread.

[Mmac]

Mew2King said himself that the Yoshi/Metaknight is 60/40 in Metaknight's favor

Yet you constantly ignore my statement that Yoshi's game against him has significantly improved since M2K Last fought Pride. He now has Triple the Kill Options he has on him, and Triple the Punishment out of an Release

 

[Yuna]

As I mentioned earlier, that's not the only problem though; there's also a ton who people who switch to Metaknight because of his freakishly small learning curve when they hit a snag with their own mains. Yeah, there are people like you and me who are trying to learn how to beat Metaknight with their respective characters but there are also a ton of people who don't even want to bother with it.

Yes, and?

NTSC Melee Sheik says "Hi". Melee's metagame tanked back in 2002, right?

1. As I mentioned earlier, if someone with as much range as Marth has like 70/30 match up against Metaknight, how on Earth could Wario be even? He wrecks most of Wario's approaches and doesn't have that much of a problem gimping him since shuttle loop can knock him off his bike. The only thing I'd say Wario really has a leg up on is that he can kill Wario with a half charged Waft at like 60% but that isn't exactly the easiest of Wario's moves to land.

Range is not everything.

2. His Dsmash is faster than Wolf's, can easily be chained together with other attacks, and doing it right after a spot dodge is amazing... What are YOU talking about?

"His Dsmash is faster than this other Dsmash". And? Since when can Meta-Knights Dsmash be chained into other attacks?

Anyway, I see his Dsmash was faster than I thought. It must be me maining Zelda and expericing the 1+ frame as something huge for some reason. I apologize.

Good job Fatmanonice, at least somebody here has the kindness to accept newcomers to the boards unlike the 3/5's of members here who will shun out 80% of the community if they have a 2008 registration. I know I have a 2008 sign-up also, but I've been playing smash since the 64 era along with Melee. I don't care what any of you say like, "Uh, you newb. Go find some other forum to pester because we don't want little scrubs like you bickering in our threads." Anyone who says anything remotely close to that is just as pathetic as any other "bully". Just thought I'd share my opinion.

I shun people if they say stupid stuff.

 

[Tahtah]

there is no reason 2 ban an character.

 

[Yuna]

Stuff

I'm sorry, is Sheik not one of the best characters in Melee? Does NTSC Melee Sheik not completely shut down a large portion of the entire cast? Does she not enjoy mostly 10-0 to 6-3 matchups with a few 5-5s and a few 5-4s (to her disadvantage) in there?

How is she not like Meta-Knight is at the moment? Years afterwards, she still is.

Doctor Mario, Ganondorf, Mario, and Captain Falcon could be chaingrabbed by Shiek, and they were all mid tier (with Captain Falcon borderline high).

How in the world was Captain Falcon chaingrabbable by Sheik? In what Alternate Universe?

Also, Doctor Mario, Mario and Ganondorf could all chaingrab Sheik.

Heck, Captain Falcon had bad matchups against Fox, Falco, Shiek, and Peach (and an even one with Marth according to most people)

Or not. Captain Falcon did just fine against Peach. And a lot of people disagree on that the matchup isn't even.

And yet he was still considered a tournament viable character, even regarded as high tier sometimes.

And this is an important point for this thread as well:
Just because you have a 5-4 or 6-3 matchup against the highest ranking characters does not mean you're unviable. Just because a character enjoys mostly advantageous matchups and even matchups does not mean they're unbeatable or even hard to beat.

Yes, Meta-Knight has an easier time winning than everyone else. But it's not even that hard to beat him. Just use Snake, one of his (debated) neutrals or someone with a 5-4 matchup. Because there will always be a character with the easiest time winning unless we ban everyone but one character.

 

[OrlanduEX]

Lot's of great stuff

You present some great arguments here on the issue of banning MK, but I think the short answer to the issue is that it is too soon.

The Brawl metagame is but 6 months old. If we are banning whole freaking (non-boss) characters this early, then Brawl is screwed for the future. We shouldn't get into the habit of banning things that seem insurmountable at the moment. Let's give the metagame at least a few more months, if not years to develop before we talk about permanently removing anything.

The truth of the matter is that we all realize now, partially thanks to threads like these, the threat that we all face in MK's sheer superiority. That means that most competitive Brawl players will be working specifically on finding ways around MK. If MK can be beaten consistently at all, we will find a way eventually and more likely sooner than later.

If not, however; if MK becomes the only character in every top 8 at every tournament then it will be clear to everyone that he is restricting the metagame the way Akuma did in Super Turbo and a ban will become necessary. We aren't even close to that yet.

At this point I think we don't know enough about Brawl in its entirety to jump to the conclusion that Mk is just too good to be overcome. We didn't give up on Melee because Sheik was "too good". We kept playing and realized eventually that Marth is almost as good and that Fox and Falco were actually better. I don't know if we'll get to that point with regard to MK, but we should at least wait and see.

 

[IShotLazer]

We know this. We are trying to prevent it but we think we MIGHT have to sometime in the future if it gets worse. We don't want to ban him because we don't like him. We want to ban him because if it keeps up like the way things are then the game is going to ruined.

 

[SwiftBass]

sonic wave you should get ur **** together a little better.

m2k shouldnt be banned just yet.

Im waiting for the time when MK iwll be like Sophitia from SC3 or Itachi in Naruto, or Akuma in ST.....then he'd warrant a ban(or maybe him covering top 3-5 @ every major). I mean I think hes getting there, but hes not quite yet. Am I right that DK has a good matchup against him and that snake can hang with him for the most part?

the game is going to get ruined.

lol too late son

 

[psykoplympton]

Doctor Mario, Ganondorf, Mario, and Captain Falcon could be chaingrabbed by Shiek, and they were all mid tier (with Captain Falcon borderline high).

But then again, I honestly think that matchups mattered a little less in melee's physics engine, because most of the characters had ways of dealing with each other. Hell, Ganondorf had a massive chaingrab on Shiek (not often that you got it, but **** that's something I'd expect Shiek to do). But oh well.

characters had ways of dealing with eacother because after 6 years you find things out. im not sure how much can be found in 6 months but i beleive its not a lot. were on the tip of the iceberg people. metaknight will be top teir until we learn how to properly deal with him. cant you see this has all happened before.

 

[Yuna]

Im waiting for the time when MK iwll be like Sophitia from SC3 or Itachi in Naruto, or Akuma in ST.....then he'd warrant a ban. I mean I think hes getting there, but hes not quite.?

Funny, neither of those character is banned. In fact, neither is even the best character of their respective games (those spots go to Xianghua and Kyuukyokyu Naruto respectively, if the Naruto game in question is GNT4).

 

[Tien2500]

I'm sorry, is Sheik not one of the best characters in Melee? Does NTSC Melee Sheik not completely shut down a large portion of the entire cast? Does she not enjoy mostly 10-0 to 6-3 matchups with a few 5-5s and a few 5-4s (to her disadvantage) in there?

How is she not like Meta-Knight is at the moment? Years afterwards, she still is.


How in the world was Captain Falcon chaingrabbable by Sheik? In what Alternate Universe?

Also, Doctor Mario, Mario and Ganondorf could all chaingrab Sheik.


Or not. Captain Falcon did just fine against Peach. And a lot of people disagree on that the matchup isn't even.


And this is an important point for this thread as well:
Just because you have a 5-4 or 6-3 matchup against the highest ranking characters does not mean you're unviable. Just because a character enjoys mostly advantageous matchups and even matchups does not mean they're unbeatable or even hard to beat.

Yes, Meta-Knight has an easier time winning than everyone else. But it's not even that hard to beat him. Just use Snake, one of his (debated) neutrals or someone with a 5-4 matchup. Because there will always be a character with the easiest time winning unless we ban everyone but one character.

I think the difference is that Sheik does have some bad matchups. Someone who mains MK really has nothing to fear at this point. If as you suggested people "just use Snake" then we just have Snake and MKs in the tournament.

Snake is pretty clearly the next most bannable character but he's not nearly as broken. D3, Falco, ROB, DK, Pikachu, Olimar, and Wolf do well against him. (Some of these are debatable.) And there are several characters have neutrals. So if MK were eliminated Snake would probably have the best chance of winning tournaments but his advantage wouldn't be so great to make him the only character worth choosing.

 

[Yuna]

I think the difference is that Sheik does have some bad matchups. Someone who mains MK really has nothing to fear at this point.

And we knew this back in 2002 how? We should've banned her!

Also, her "bad" matchups are, what, 5-4s? That's just a disadvantageous one, not a horribly bad matchup. MK has to fear his even matchups... and Snake. Sheik has, what, two-three matchups that are 5-4s? MK has a 6-4 against Snake (according to the Meta forums) and a few 5-5s.

If as you suggested people "just use Snake" then we just have Snake and MKs in the tournament.

How about the characters that have 5-5? Or even 5-4? A 5-4 is not some kind of unbeatable matchup. Captain Falcon suffered 6-4s and 5-4s against most of Top and High in Melee, yet he regularly placed pretty high and beat said characters.

MK is winning by a small margin. It's just that the more tournaments are held, the more tourneys are won by Metas, thus making it seem like he's really hard to beat. He isn't.

That's ignoring (like so many people have in this thread, even after I've pointed it out to them) the fact that there are tons of people using Meta-Knight at the moment and that many of the U.S. best Smashers are using him. Of course he'll dominate then!

Snake is pretty clearly the next most bannable character but he's not nearly as broken. D3, Falco, ROB, DK, Pikachu, Olimar, and Wolf do well against him. (Some of these are debatable.)

"Do well against" =/= "Have an advantageous matchup"

Also, MK has plenty of characters who "do well" against him.

And there are several characters have neutrals. So if MK were eliminated Snake would probably have the best chance of winning tournaments but his advantage wouldn't be so great to make him the only character worth choosing.

Neither is MK at the moment. Seriously, have some of you people even played the game? Since when does Meta have 7-3 to 10-0s against virtually every single character in the game?!

 

[Plairnkk]

Really the only Metaknight players dominating in the US are Mew2king, omni, myself, and dsf. Which of these players were amazing at melee? Oh wait, all of them. Also Chu, azen and chillin are all still dominating with *gasp* non metaknight characters and winning tournaments with lucario, falco, snake, kirby, etc.

 

[boom-man97]

its just too early to ban him
so stop spamming the whine button and just play the game.

 

[Tien2500]

And we knew this back in 2002 how? We should've banned her!

Also, her "bad" matchups are, what, 5-4s? That's just a disadvantageous one, not a horribly bad matchup. MK has to fear his even matchups... and Snake. Sheik has, what, two-three matchups that are 5-4s? MK has a 6-4 against Snake (according to the Meta forums) and a few 5-5s.


How about the characters that have 5-5? Or even 5-4? A 5-4 is not some kind of unbeatable matchup. Captain Falcon suffered 6-4s and 5-4s against most of Top and High in Melee, yet he regularly placed pretty high and beat said characters.

MK is winning by a small margin. It's just that the more tournaments are held, the more tourneys are won by Metas, thus making it seem like he's really hard to beat. He isn't.

That's ignoring (like so many people have in this thread, even after I've pointed it out to them) the fact that there are tons of people using Meta-Knight at the moment and that many of the U.S. best Smashers are using him. Of course he'll dominate then!


"Do well against" =/= "Have an advantageous matchup"

Also, MK has plenty of characters who "do well" against him.


Neither is MK at the moment. Seriously, have some of you people even played the game? Since when does Meta have 7-3 to 10-0s against virtually every single character in the game?!

Well the Brawl game we have today is more advanced than the Melee Metagame of 2002. But I wasn't really that into Melee so I won't discuss further.

Based on what I've read at the Snake boards ROB is a strong counter (7-3) and D3/Falco are at least 6-4. Some people also feel that DK is a 6-4 or even 7-3 matchup but its disputed. Pikachu is regarded as a 6-4. I'm getting this data from incomplete match up threads so there are probably quite a few I'm missing. But the point is that Snake isn't on the same level as MK.

At best people in this topic seem to be able to come up with a list of 5-7 characters who *might* have a neutral or slight advantage against MK and MK seems to be improving over time. At this point in the metagame it wouldn't be called for to ban him but depending on how things develop it might be worth considering in the near future. (by near future I mean after about another 6 months at least.)

 

[Plairnkk]

Uhh whoever is making those numbers in the snake matchup threads are idiots. Anyone who says ROB is a harder matchup for snake than D3 or Falco needs to learn to play this game. Also, dk? Really? Pitiful. Pikachu? Hhahahaha

People love to downplay their mains as not being as good as they are so they feel more talented as a player. I will however say MK is the best character, but no piece of **** brawl newbie is just going to come along and beat a talented player, no matter what character the person plays

 

[Yuna]

Stuff.

The character specific boards is full of BS. On the Snake boards, Meta-Knight is listed as one of Snake's hardest matchups, harder than any of the characters you just mentioned except one other character who's listed at the same difficulty.

According to the Meat-Knight boards, it's a 6-4 matchup in Snake's favour. Needless to say, take anything you read in the matchup threads with a grain of salt.

And, again, having no counters =/= Needs to be banned

 

[Tien2500]

Yeah I'm aware that the character boards are flawed. (Squirtle is listed as neutral against MK at the PT boards) but its still the best source of info I have not being a skilled Snake player. Having no counters doesn't necessarily warrant banning. But if MK becomes so dominant that only him and the few characters that have neutrals against him become viable then thats when banning should be considered. I'm not saying this happened yet but it could be a possibility in the future.

 

[Dark Sonic]

My bad on the Captain Falcon chaingrabbed by Shiek part. I must've had a mental lapse or something. But my point was that having a bad matchup against Shiek did not neccesarily make the character unviable, and that Shiek's chaingrab was not the primary reason that the low tier characters she beat were so low. As other people have said, most of the characters that Shiek countered also had bad matchups against the other high and top tiers, so banning her really would'nt have made a big difference.

Of course I'm not saying Metaknight should be banned, but it's understandable why people would say that he's in a different position than Shiek.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Uhh whoever is making those numbers in the snake matchup threads are idiots. Anyone who says ROB is a harder matchup for snake than D3 or Falco needs to learn to play this game. Also, dk? Really? Pitiful. Pikachu? Hhahahaha

People love to downplay their mains as not being as good as they are so they feel more talented as a player. I will however say MK is the best character, but no piece of **** brawl newbie is just going to come along and beat a talented player, no matter what character the person plays

Being a Pikachu mainer myself, I am curious as to why you laugh at the Pikachu-Snake matchup. Please explain, as it will help me greatly.

 

[Plairnkk]

Being a Pikachu mainer myself, I am curious as to why you laugh at the Pikachu-Snake matchup. Please explain, as it will help me greatly.

Pikachu does decently in comparison to some of the other cast because of his chaingrab and edgeguarding, but a decent snake is going to piss all over a good pikachu. It's just too hard for pikachu to get a kill on snake, he's too heavy. The thunder edgeguarding is only so effective, and even less effective against a snake who knows what he is doing

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Pikachu does decently in comparison to some of the other cast because of his chaingrab and edgeguarding, but a decent snake is going to piss all over a good pikachu. It's just too hard for pikachu to get a kill on snake, he's too heavy. The thunder edgeguarding is only so effective, and even less effective against a snake who knows what he is doing

I've noticed that. A good Pikachu can land A LOT of damage increasing moves though, in addition to chains and guards. So hypothetically, what if the Pikachu simply spammed and camped significantly more than is typical?

 

[Plairnkk]

It's possible, i'm not saying it's not. But it's an uphill battle for Pikachu for sure. He will spam and camp and build up all that damage, then get hit by 3 ftilts, a dash attack, then a utilt and die. Lol

 

[Fatmanonice]

Yes, and?

NTSC Melee Sheik says "Hi". Melee's metagame tanked back in 2002, right?

As several other people pointed out, Shiek had several counters. Metaknight has one but some are willing to say that Snake isn't even a true counter anymore.


Range is not everything.

When it comes to Wario's matchups it does mean a lot. Like I said, he's disadvantaged against Snake, Marth, and King Dedede because of it. Also Metaknight takes away a very important aspect of Wario's metagame, his offstage game. Wario relies on gimping more than most characters and, as we all know, Metaknight isn't exactly the easiest character to gimp considering he has 5 methods of recovery (glide, shuttle loop, drill, tornado, and dimenionsal cape for short distances) and 5 jumps. Shuttle loop, drill, and tornado pretty much shut down all of Wario's gimping options except the Waft when it's at least half way charged. Again, Wario also has a disadvantage against characters who can easily mess up his off stage game like King Dedede. Metaknight has the things I already mentioned while King Dedede can pretty much do a forced suicide using the inhale attack if Wario gets too close.


"His Dsmash is faster than this other Dsmash". And? Since when can Meta-Knights Dsmash be chained into other attacks?

Wolf's is like the third fasest Smash attack and can also be chained into other attacks at lower percentages like Metaknight's. Apparently, you believed that Metaknight's dsmash was comparable to Ike's so I thought it was nessecary to compare it to a smash attack that is commonly known as quick. Yes, from probably 0%- probably 60%, Metaknight's can easily be lead into other attacks depending on the percentage. Dsmash to chase to fair, dsmash to chase to tornado, dsmash to chase to nair, dsmash to running dthrow to fair, dsmash to drill, etc. Keep in mind that because of Metaknight's ground speed and overall attack speed, he can pull some of these off before his opponent really has any chance to recover or can be very easy for the Metaknight player to predict how their opponent will respond after being hit.

Anyway, I see his Dsmash was faster than I thought. It must be me maining Zelda and expericing the 1+ frame as something huge for some reason. I apologize for nothing.

Fixed to say what you really wanted to say.


I shun people if they say stupid stuff.

He was talking to me, not you... Honestly, why does everything written in a thread always have to pertain to you?

 

[Jellyfishn]

The only thing I see Meta Knight being banned for is when and if everyone starts having him as a main or secondary just so they won't lose, which probably won't happen. But at the rate things are going.....


I hate you sakurai.....

 

[Yuna]

As several other people pointed out, Shiek had several counters. Metaknight has one but some are willing to say that Snake isn't even a true counter anymore.

Name these numerous counters.

When it comes to Wario's matchups it does mean a lot. Like I said, he's disadvantaged against Snake, Marth, and King Dedede because of it. Also Metaknight takes away a very important aspect of Wario's metagame, his offstage game. Wario relies on gimping more than most characters and, as we all know, Metaknight isn't exactly the easiest character to gimp considering he has 5 methods of recovery (glide, shuttle loop, drill, tornado, and dimenionsal cape for short distances) and 5 jumps. Shuttle loop, drill, and tornado pretty much shut down all of Wario's gimping options except the Waft when it's at least half way charged. Again, Wario also has a disadvantage against characters who can easily mess up his off stage game like King Dedede. Metaknight has the things I already mentioned while King Dedede can pretty much do a forced suicide using the inhale attack if Wario gets too close.

Wow, King DeDeDe is impervious to edgeguarding, I guess! Force suicide! No really, you grasp on what makes a character viable seems a bit... off.

Wolf's is like the third fasest Smash attack and can also be chained into other attacks at lower percentages like Metaknight's. Apparently, you believed that Metaknight's dsmash was comparable to Ike's so I thought it was nessecary to compare it to a smash attack that is commonly known as quick. Yes, from probably 0%- probably 60%, Metaknight's can easily be lead into other attacks depending on the percentage. Dsmash to chase to fair, dsmash to chase to tornado, dsmash to chase to nair, dsmash to running dthrow to fair, dsmash to drill, etc. Keep in mind that because of Metaknight's ground speed and overall attack speed, he can pull some of these off before his opponent really has any chance to recover or can be very easy for the Metaknight player to predict how their opponent will respond after being hit.

I hate people who colour their text for no apparent reason. It requires them to first colour it, so I don't see why anyone would manually do that for every single post they make. It also is a hassle to multi-quote them.

Anyway, I never once claimed Meta-Knight's was Ike-speed. I just thought it was slower than the average 5 frame Dsmash. What the hell can Meta-Knight combo into from Dsmash? True combo, not a stupid "Oh, I predict how you airdodge, I can..." BS.

He was talking to me, not you... Honestly, why does everything written in a thread always have to pertain to you?

Yes, obviously, no one except the person one's currently talking to is allowed to challenge one's statements. The statement was that "many people auto-shun all users with recent join dates" (paraphrase). I merely stated the reasons why I (and many others) shun people.

 

[OrlanduEX]

I hate you sakurai.....

We all do, Jelly, we all do.

 

[SwiftBass]

Funny, neither of those character is banned. In fact, neither is even the best character of their respective games (those spots go to Xianghua and Kyuukyokyu Naruto respectively, if the Naruto game in question is GNT4).

i was referencing gnt3 sry about that

wow I had no idea about xianghua...looks like i should get my **** together

 

[Grunt]

I remember finding a tier list on SC2 and going, "wait X isn't top tier." then i realized it was from 2003, lol.

 

[BEES]

I think the main difference at this point is that the Melee top 5 tier characters had a kind of symmetry with each other. They each posed weak counters and even matchups in the same amounts, which led to an interesting dynamic between them. In Brawl, there is Metaknight. There doesn't appear to be any other character that has similar matchups to him that can fight him on even terms.

There are characters with similarly good matchups overall. Falco, Marth, and Game&Watch wreck a good chunk of the cast, but they all have an even to somewhat uphill battle against Metaknight. Snake and DK have a slight advantage, but they suffer from hard counters.

I can only see this eventually leading to some type of ban. I think a lot of people will not be content to fight metaknight 50% of the time competitively, and they will agree to axe him to mix things up more.

That said, things could settle differently. With some more development, the other high tiers might close the gap between themselves and Metaknight. It will be a while before we know for certain.

 

[PK-ow!]

Still against banning MK but I have to say this:

This is what I have learned. The reason why MK is so broken, is because even if you know what he is going to do, too many times out of 100, you are going to eat it anyway.

Not even prediction can give you something good to do about this guy. That's how messed up his moveset is. Shield? Oh well he shield pressures you then flies off to safety (with tornado), or he retreats while your drastically quickened shield drop still pales in alacrity to his laglessness! Dodge? Don't make me laugh. Roll? He has the most options right there. Attack? Into that priority? And say you've got a sword too. Spot dodge -> Dsmash. We've all seen it. It works.

How could the metagame evolve to beat a condition, where he has a repertoire so speedy and advantaged, that he has techniques - not even advanced ones - which trump mindgames?

 

[Yuna]

i was referencing gnt3 sry about that

wow I had no idea about xianghua...looks like i should get my **** together

Everyone (credible) feels that the GNT3 bans were totally scrubby. The banned 4 (Itachi, Akamaru, Karasu, Orochimaru) (sometimes extended to 5, if Sarutobi was banned) weren't good enough to be banned.

At the moment, the GNT community was still small and budding (in fact, it's always been small). It's just that people were a lot scrubbier back then. Karasu was bad. So what if he had super armour? He was still bad. Sarutobi didn't deserve to get banned at all, it was just that **** whatever-combo-into-d.X (or whatever the input was back then) that ticked people off. Orochimaru was good, but, his "bread and butter"-combo was still sidesteppable and jumpable and whatnotable.

Itachi? There was a lot more landing lag after aerials, so he couldn't really combo people from j.A. There were no cancels, which he desperately needs to do any real damage without dishing out tons of chakra (hello, Kawarimi no Jutsu) or, most of the time, any combos at all, and he was stuck with just two Kawarimi no Jutsus (one aerial and one grounded), both of which sucked and left him wide open. His BB-strings were all still highly unsafe so if he went past BB, chances were he was going to get punished. Other than BB, he doesn't really have any other safe approaches except projectile-based ones... which you can poke out of existence most of the time.

Akamaru was the only character that should've been banned.

Anyway, and what were we left with? Neji, Mr. f.BBBABBd.X -> Whatever, Zabuza Mr. j.A (no running sidestep made it infinitely better) into devastating tickthrow into combo and I think Kankurou was quite the force to be reckoned with since he's largely the same as in GNT4 (he doesn't rely on cancels) and we all know he's very good in GNT4.

Itachi wasn't even the best character in GNT3. So banning Itachi (and the others) was a classic example of a community panicking when they found seemingly unbeatable tactics and prematurely banned a slew of charactes only to later find out that they weren't at all unbeatable.

This has been a history lesson in the world of Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen 3.

This is what I have learned. The reason why MK is so broken, is because even if you know what he is going to do, too many times out of 100, you are going to eat it anyway.

or not.

Not even prediction can give you something good to do about this guy. That's how messed up his moveset is. Shield? Oh well he shield pressures you then flies off to safety (with tornado), or he retreats while your drastically quickened shield drop still pales in alacrity to his laglessness!

So do many other characters. It's called pressure for a reason.

There are characters with similarly good matchups overall. Falco, Marth, and Game&Watch wreck a good chunk of the cast, but they all have an even to somewhat uphill battle against Metaknight. Snake and DK have a slight advantage, but they suffer from hard counters.

Name Snake's "hard counters". Also, Snake is supposedly at an advantage against Meta-Knight. If Snake suffers from "counters", doesn't he, too, force you to play as them or lose? Also, G&W says "Hi".

I can only see this eventually leading to some type of ban. I think a lot of people will not be content to fight metaknight 50% of the time competitively, and they will agree to axe him to mix things up more.

We do not ban things for the sake of diversity. If everyone good started playing Lucario, would you whine about that?

Dodge? Don't make me laugh. Roll? He has the most options right there.

Yes, I'm sure he can keep up the pressure and pursue a well-timed roll at the same time. He's just that good.

Attack? Into that priority? And say you've got a sword too. Spot dodge -> Dsmash. We've all seen it. It works.

How about you just space it so that you don't get hit by his Dsmash? Or, say, use Nair or any other attack that has a hitbox that stays out for a long time.

 

[psykoplympton]

I think the main difference at this point is that the Melee top 5 tier characters had a kind of symmetry with each other. They each posed weak counters and even matchups in the same amounts, which led to an interesting dynamic between them. In Brawl, there is Metaknight. There doesn't appear to be any other character that has similar matchups to him that can fight him on even terms.

There are characters with similarly good matchups overall. Falco, Marth, and Game&Watch wreck a good chunk of the cast, but they all have an even to somewhat uphill battle against Metaknight. Snake and DK have a slight advantage, but they suffer from hard counters.

I can only see this eventually leading to some type of ban. I think a lot of people will not be content to fight metaknight 50% of the time competitively, and they will agree to axe him to mix things up more.

That said, things could settle differently. With some more development, the other high tiers might close the gap between themselves and Metaknight. It will be a while before we know for certain.

it took a good 6 years for those 5 melee chars to be like that with eachother. i cant stress it enough however that it hasent even been a year. we cant truthfully say which chars dominate others until a little time has passed. i agree with the last sentence.

 

[da K.I.D.]

brawl should be out for at least a year be4 we contemplate bans

 

[psykoplympton]

brawl should be out for at least a year be4 we contemplate bans

qft
besides we dont even know all the matchups
/thread

 

[betterthanbonds9]

I hate agreeing with yuna for the second straight time, but yuna's right.

Point is, shiek was amazing, later matchups evolved and the metagame started to really flourish. Metaknight will be evened out once players get used to them on an enormous scale.

Plus, anybody else notice that the best metaknights are players like M2K and other melee pros. There are melee pros like azen using non-top tier characters. Blame their skill, and then cry about it.

 

[aeghrur]

Hm, you'd think this thread would be over for now. =/ Give it time before resorting to bans... Let brawl develop.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

We do not ban things for the sake of diversity. If everyone good started playing Lucario, would you whine about that?

I would. Thankfully, it's a non-issue.

 

[OrlanduEX]

How could the metagame evolve to beat a condition, where he has a repertoire so speedy and advantaged, that he has techniques - not even advanced ones - which trump mindgames?

The idea that "mindgames always trump tech skill" was a construction made up by casual players to decry advanced techs which they perceive as "unintended, dishonorable, glitches" or some such.

It shouldn't come as a surprise that there are techs in the game so good that you can never fully get around them no matter how smart you are. That's what makes good characters good. If mind games beat tech skill always; if every tech could be utterly neutralized, the game would be boring like rock-paper-scissors. The extreme effectiveness of particular moves and particular characters in general gives the game variety and makes it interesting.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

The idea that "mindgames always trump tech skill" was a construction made up by casual players to decry advanced techs which they perceive as "unintended, dishonorable, glitches" or some such.

It shouldn't come as a surprise that there are techs in the game so good that you can never fully get around them no matter how smart you are. That's what makes good characters good. If mind games beat tech skill always; if every tech could be utterly neutralized, the game would be boring like rock-paper-scissors. The extreme effectiveness of particular moves and particular characters in general gives the game variety and makes it interesting.

I disagree with this too. While techs are nice and combos feel good to pull off, the best games for me are the ones which are all about out-witting your opponent. The game becomes a battle of wits over a battle of technical ability, and the winner is the one who can best analyze the other.

Incidently, I am a huge fan of pokemon as well, and have found shoddybattle entertaining, so it makes sence that I would like battles of wits best.

 

[Yuna]

I disagree with this too. While techs are nice and combos feel good to pull off, the best games for me are the ones which are all about out-witting your opponent. The game becomes a battle of wits over a battle of technical ability, and the winner is the one who can best analyze the other.

Then ban every single character except, like, Samus. Then it'll really be about who outwits the other the most.