The "Metaknight should/will be banned" thread.

[g2g4l]

So, now that the flamewars are over, How is MK overpowered exactly, and how is he not Overpowered exactly? And no Bias please, there has been too much of that already T_T.

From a non bias point I mean Metaknight does have a great mixture of things but to me he is not the best at any one thing he has speed but is no where close to the fastest({i'm not saying any of these characters are the best but they to me are better than MK in their area} sonic in speed) he has range but is is not the farthest reacher (donky kong for one) he has amazing! aerials but still not the best (Squirtle or ness) i mean we could go on with this forever but the point is that ever two characters in a 1v1 match up has plenty of things on each other like if one has speed over the other the other has power its just how you use what the character has over the other does that answer your question

 

[Yuna]

Just because someone is beatable does not necessarily mean that they shouldn't be banned. Akuma was technically beatable as well, he was just so much better then the rest of the cast that it was much more prudent to ban him.

There is no Metaknight counter. Metaknight is a counter to everyone.

Just because he has no counter does not mean he's overpowered. He's got plenty of even matchups. And then quite a few where his advantage isn't that large.

He is not a counter to everyone. Also, again, lacking counters =/= Should be banned. Yun, X and Eddie say "Hiiiiii!".

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Isn't it your job to tell us how he's overpowered?

I know this isn't directed at me, and I'm sure you have your answer from a previous post. However, since you asked -

MK is overpowered because he is really fast, has high priority on his attacks, and has incredibly fast, accurate kill moves. MK also has an excellent recovery, and he can gimp a lot of characters, but his up-b makes him pretty ungimpable.

EDIT: overpowered does not equal bannable.

 

[Yuna]

I know this isn't directed at me, and I'm sure you have your answer from a previous post. However, since you asked -

MK [...] has incredibly fast, accurate kill moves...

If you say so...

 

[SwastikaPyle]

I am also not in favor of Metaknight being banned, but I would like to see more Metaknight-free tourneys. It would give the rest of the cast a chance to shine.

 

[deepseadiva]

Just curious: I remember someone saying Sheik was the early "Top tier" character during Melee. How did things progress until Fox shot up?
Was that before the wavedash?

 

[Plairnkk]

Metaknights even - or close to even - matchups

Snake - Snake has a decent advantage on MK on the stage if he uses grenades correctly. He lives until much higher percents as a whole and should just trade damage and blow **** up til MK is at like 90% and then utilt. Obviously it's not as easy as it sounds, but that's the gameplan. Off of the stage MK DESTROYS snake, hands down.

Falco - The chaingrab works surprisingly well on MK, and the lasers go right through tornado and are certainly an annoyance. Usually falco as a lot of issues killing but because of how light MK is, usmash does wonders. Negatively MK can ledgecamp against falco really well, and also if he forces falco to up+b falco is in essence dead

Lucario - Lucario's moves all go through Mk's tornado which makes it difficult to approach since Lucario also has crazy range and disjointed hitboxes. Lucario's weight makes him slightly hard for MK to finish off, which is bad because it only makes Lucario stronger. However it is very easy for MK to edgeguard lucario.

Wario - Wario is probably still in MK's favor, but it's not that bad for Wario. Wario gets grab release ***** by most characters but MK can't do that. Mk also has a bit of trouble killing/edgeguarding a good wario, whereas wario can easily finish MK buy trading a fart/fsmash with attacks or a well placed uair.

MK - It's a ditto.

DDD/DK/Yoshi - Complete myths IMO, i think MK should **** them or they just dont know the matchup well enough.

Some people also say Diddy because of the whole NinjaLink/M2K thing, but i dont know about that, you just have to play smart against diddy. I 3 stocked ninjalink at like 50% in tourney, granted that was like a month and a half ago, lol

MK is really good and by far the best character, but it doesn't warrant banning. Marth/fox won all melee tournaments for god knows how long and nobody ever discussed banning them. So why all the talk about banning a character now? Because it's a new game and people are eager to hop on the ban-train rather than learning to fight a character.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

- Yuna

Well, MK's kill moves are a lot less accurate now then when Brawl first came out because everyone knows to avoid getting hit by them. My favorite of these moves are his d-smash and up-b, but they lost their effectiveness once everyone realized how good these attacks were (which was almost immediately).

 

[Revolutionary1804]

MK is overpowered... if u pick a good MK vs a good <insert character here> most times, the MK will win. the only reason ppl don't want to ban him right now is because noone wants to admit that he is just that godly and for that same reason i wouldnt ban him.
plus ROB is the metagame so there is always hope.

 

[iLink]

As much as I would love to ban MK and Snake for the sake of more variety in tournys, I don't think he is viable for a ban at this point in the game.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

Metaknights even - or close to even - matchups

Snake - Snake has a decent advantage on MK on the stage if he uses grenades correctly. He lives until much higher percents as a whole and should just trade damage and blow **** up til MK is at like 90% and then utilt. Obviously it's not as easy as it sounds, but that's the gameplan. Off of the stage MK DESTROYS snake, hands down.

Falco - The chaingrab works surprisingly well on MK, and the lasers go right through tornado and are certainly an annoyance. Usually falco as a lot of issues killing but because of how light MK is, usmash does wonders. Negatively MK can ledgecamp against falco really well, and also if he forces falco to up+b falco is in essence dead

Lucario - Lucario's moves all go through Mk's tornado which makes it difficult to approach since Lucario also has crazy range and disjointed hitboxes. Lucario's weight makes him slightly hard for MK to finish off, which is bad because it only makes Lucario stronger. However it is very easy for MK to edgeguard lucario.

Wario - Wario is probably still in MK's favor, but it's not that bad for Wario. Wario gets grab release ***** by most characters but MK can't do that. Mk also has a bit of trouble killing/edgeguarding a good wario, whereas wario can easily finish MK buy trading a fart/fsmash with attacks or a well placed uair.

MK - It's a ditto.

DDD/DK/Yoshi - Complete myths IMO, i think MK should **** them or they just dont know the matchup well enough.

Some people also say Diddy because of the whole NinjaLink/M2K thing, but i dont know about that, you just have to play smart against diddy. I 3 stocked ninjalink at like 50% in tourney, granted that was like a month and a half ago, lol

MK is really good and by far the best character, but it doesn't warrant banning. Marth/fox won all melee tournaments for god knows how long and nobody ever discussed banning them. So why all the talk about banning a character now? Because it's a new game and people are eager to hop on the ban-train rather than learning to fight a character.

I counterpick Diddy and it works pretty well for me, but maybe not as well as some of the others would. It's still a hard fight, just easier than it is with alot of others.

As for DeDeDe, yeah, it seems like he would lose pretty bad, and I'm not saying he's a counter or anything, but he does better than you would expect. You really have to know the matchup though. I think the key to it though is just that DDD has alot of really good vertical kills so that gives him a natural advantage against light floaty characters. He is big though, so he gets combo'd to hell and back. Not an unbearable match though.

As for dealing with some of his best moves, tornado can be inhaled in a similar fashion to Ike's forwardB, and he can be knocked out of it with dtilt, if its a grounded tornado. Ftilt outranges anything he has on the ground, and he is one of the few who can outprioritize some of his aerials. All around I'd say its even if not slightly in MK's favor.

 

[Grunt]

Just curious: I remember someone saying Sheik was the early "Top tier" character during Melee. How did things progress until Fox shot up?
Was that before the wavedash?

wavedash was very early in melee's life, so i don't think so.
Things tend to fluctuate based on newly discovered tactics, or a general rise in player:Character skill. The current Melee tier list is considered out of date. It has Marth in 4th under Sheik and the spacies. many believe Marth should take the top spot due to M2K's success with Marth. During the creation of the 06 tier list, this is when The spacies had their great shine (pun might have been intended). the MLG finals, Ken vs PC was Fox vs Falco, so it's no wonder they were top tier for this list.

 

[ArcPoint]

@ Plainrkk I think it's because there's a larger gap between Metaknight and the other characters, so people are starting to shout "Ban!"

Granted, he has VERY few flaws. Weight and a touch of lag on his ground game to name two.

Obviously the metagame hasn't devolved to "Pick Metaknight, or you lose, no exceptions" so it's not deserving a ban as of yet.

However I'm dieing to know what a Meta-less tourney would yield. Yuna has a theory that only GaW and Snake would be dominating now. But I'm not too sure, TL is a pretty bad matchup for Game and Watch, and as for Snake... well, he's more beatable than MK. Wario is a bad matchup for Snake and so on and so forth. However, since no one can see the future, no one knows for sure what would happen if we were to hold a MK-free Tourney.

I believe Yuna asked the question "How would holding a tourney without Metaknight improve the metagame?" Correct me if I'm wrong about the question. But here's my answer:
No one knows, if the results are consistently just Snakes and GaW, then Yuna would be right, if we get something inconsistent or some lower people placing in tourneys, we'd need to look into it further. So the "Point" to holding a tournament without MK would be simply for knowledge. If only the next best place well, then we can't say we didn't try =P

Also, this is a very... long thread, lots of people want to post in it >_> Everytime I read 2 pages, another page pops up. I almost don't want to go to bed -- God knows how many more pages are going to accumulate.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I don't think Metaknight should be banned but I do find it extremelly gay that a lot of people simply use him as a counterpick when they got their backs against the wall even when he isn't one of their mains simply because 1. he has a retardedly small learning curve (as I always explain, I used to main him myself) and 2. counters everyone except like 3 people (Game and Watch, Snake, and himself).

I also think the counter list someone posted earlier is bull. If someone as much range as Marth has a disadvantage against Metaknight, how on earth would Wario be even? Metaknight renders all of Wario's approachs borderline useless and since nearly all his attacks have disjointed hitboxes, he gives him trouble all around. It has to be 70/30 at least... Wario can kill Metaknight at like 60% with a half charged waft but that's the only major leg up I can think of that he has on him.

I think Diddy Kong is merely an opinion formed on impulse because someone recently won a big tournament with him. It's like how people used to believe Wolf and Ike were Metaknight counters if you ask me. Diddy Kong has problems with Peach because she can stay off the ground for decent periods of time and Metaknight's almost as good at doing the same thing. Metaknight also has a pretty easy time gimping Diddy too. Yeah, the banannas are annoying but there are ways to get around it and Metaknight has more options than most characters.

Yoshi is even simply because of a chain grab that can be done on some of the neutral stages? Come on guys... If the Ice Climber match up is like 70/30 when it's possible for them to infinite him on nearly every legal stage then Yoshi is definately NOT on par with Metaknight.

Why do I get the feeling that the chart someone posted is merely a list of the characters that have the easiest time getting past Metaknight's mach tornado? Regarding Falco, Lucario, and DK: I'm not that familar with the match ups but I'm pretty sure the tournament results would be a whole lot different if these characters were on par with Metaknight too.

add in:

Regarding the whole "scrub" arguement (yes, I've read all the posts in this thread), the word really wouldn't bother me so much if so many people here didn't use it in the same context that some people would use the word n****r or how a lot of people seem to have a "go die in a fire" additude towards people who (God forbid) actually play with items or play online here.

 

[Kizzu-kun]

...
...
...
...
...

Anyway, Kizzu-kun:
Wario
Falco
Diddy
Yoshi
Lucario
Donkey Kong
DeDeDe

If the MK boards are to be believed. Of course, one should take it with a grain of salt.

Thanks Yuna.


Could anyone been formulating why these matchups are even? (probably someone had done this when I were formulating this post, but well, this is the point of asking for the even matchups)
Because this is a better way to develop further this discussion than actually doing tests.
Obvious if you guys want to revert the situation here.

Also, about stages, they doesn't make these matchups more in MK's favor even considering the knockout system? So I ask, what is Metaknight worst stage scenario? And this scenario still bringing a even match for him?

Anyway, in my opinion, Metaknight will be ban-worth in future, if we do only counts what we theortically knows today. But anyway my worries doesn't stands about the game being reducing to Metaknight vs Metaknight, but much more of Metaknight usage being a necessity to winning sets.

Sorry for my english anyway, I'm feeling very sleepy to write or elaborate something better.

 

[Mmac]

Could anyone been formulating why these matchups are even? (probably someone had done this when I were formulating this post, but well, this is the point of asking for the even matchups)
Because this is a better way to develop further this discussion than actually doing tests.
Obvious if you guys want to revert the situation here.

Well there a huge discussion on why Yoshi = MetaKnight here: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=189969

He actually does really well against him, it's not a Myth at all

Not sure about the other characters, but you'll probably find them if you search their Character Board hard enough

Edit:

Yoshi is even simply because of a chain grab that can be done on some of the neutral stages? Come on guys... If the Ice Climber match up is like 70/30 when it's possible for them to infinite him on nearly every legal stage then Yoshi is definately NOT on par with Metaknight.

There's alot more to this Matchup than "Just a Chaingrab", especially since most MetaKnight counterpick a stage where it's impossible to do so.

 

[Plairnkk]

Metaknights even - or close to even - matchups

Snake - Snake has a decent advantage on MK on the stage if he uses grenades correctly. He lives until much higher percents as a whole and should just trade damage and blow **** up til MK is at like 90% and then utilt. Obviously it's not as easy as it sounds, but that's the gameplan. Off of the stage MK DESTROYS snake, hands down.

Falco - The chaingrab works surprisingly well on MK, and the lasers go right through tornado and are certainly an annoyance. Usually falco as a lot of issues killing but because of how light MK is, usmash does wonders. Negatively MK can ledgecamp against falco really well, and also if he forces falco to up+b falco is in essence dead

Lucario - Lucario's moves all go through Mk's tornado which makes it difficult to approach since Lucario also has crazy range and disjointed hitboxes. Lucario's weight makes him slightly hard for MK to finish off, which is bad because it only makes Lucario stronger. However it is very easy for MK to edgeguard lucario.

Wario - Wario is probably still in MK's favor, but it's not that bad for Wario. Wario gets grab release ***** by most characters but MK can't do that. Mk also has a bit of trouble killing/edgeguarding a good wario, whereas wario can easily finish MK buy trading a fart/fsmash with attacks or a well placed uair.

MK - It's a ditto.

DDD/DK/Yoshi - Complete myths IMO, i think MK should **** them or they just dont know the matchup well enough.

Some people also say Diddy because of the whole NinjaLink/M2K thing, but i dont know about that, you just have to play smart against diddy. I 3 stocked ninjalink at like 50% in tourney, granted that was like a month and a half ago, lol

MK is really good and by far the best character, but it doesn't warrant banning. Marth/fox won all melee tournaments for god knows how long and nobody ever discussed banning them. So why all the talk about banning a character now? Because it's a new game and people are eager to hop on the ban-train rather than learning to fight a character.

Kizzzu I kinda wrote the matchups out.... Also the worst MK level IMO is FD by far.

 

[Mew2King]

the problem with a lot of you guys opinions is that most of you don't know the matchups at high level, like yoshi vs mk. It's like 60/40 in mks favor, and i play with PRiDE.

 

[ShadowLink84]

One of the issues I think is that people get stuck on the tornado. yes the nado is good blah blah moves can break it yes.

But its not like its Mk's only approach method so even if he couldn't use the tornado its not going to automatically means that MK has a possible disadvantage.

Ah well no one ever listens to me T_T

 

[Mmac]

the problem with a lot of you guys opinions is that most of you don't know the matchups at high level, like yoshi vs mk. It's like 60/40 in mks favor, and i play with PRiDE.

I know You played with Pride, but that was before the Release Edge to Fair spike kill at 48%, Release To Eggroll 0-40 Combo, or Release on Ground to DownB kill at 96%. He is improving greatly against MetaKnight, and still is as we speek

 

[KernelColonel]

If Donkey Kong can F-smash the rapenado, then MK shouldn't be banned

I'm not sure what Donkey Kong has to do with it

But I'm certain the matchup isn't so bad :3

 

[Shining Blitz]

I was thinking something along the lines of a temporary ban on MK. At some point in the (hopefully) near future, I would like TOs to start banning meta-knight for, say, 6 weeks. This will allow other character's metagames to develop, as well as hone individual player's skills, so that when meta-knight returns, people will be better prepared to fight him.

If this is ineffective, I would suggest a 30% handicap on Meta-Knight.

If MK, after all this, continues to win tournaments, I think it merits a real ban. I think that the 30% handicap is fair and balanced at the moment, and though a 6-week metagame ban to increase other char's viability may help, it may not. Besides, some TOs might ban MK anyway, but the 30% handicap may convince them otherwise. Of course, such a handicap is somewhat controversial, but I think that it is reasonable in this one, game-breaking, extreme circumstance.

 

[Fatmanonice]

the problem with a lot of you guys opinions is that most of you don't know the matchups at high level, like yoshi vs mk. It's like 60/40 in mks favor, and i play with PRiDE.

*clasps hands together*

There you go folks, the best MK in the country just said that the Yoshi/MK is not even. If you don't mind me asking, what's your opinion on Falco and Lucario? (I'm fairly sure the DK thing is another tilted matchup based on yet another impulse and I'm pretty sure Metaknight has an advantage over King Dedede too.)

 

[Mmac]

*clasps hands together*

There you go folks, the best MK in the country just said that the Yoshi/MK is not even.

Yet, 48% Unavoidable Kills mean Nothing?

I'm not denying that M2K beat Pride, but Yoshi's game has greatly improved since M2K Played him.

 

[Matador]

MK isn't an unbeatable character...I don't even understand why banning him is even in discussion. MK doesn't forcefully limit the roster; competitive players voluntarily do. By adapting a "play to win" mentality, naturally MK would be the best selection. THAT's why he's so well represented, and that's why most of the tourney winners are MKs and Snakes; not because other characters stand no chance against MK. Top players could pick up nearly ANY character do play at professional levels because they have experience and practice; not because they use MK or Snake.

And for God's sake, the game is only a few months old. There are so many untapped potentials, unlearned skills or techniques, and plenty of time for matches to flip-flop 10 times over. Already M2K has provided ways to decrease effectiveness of MK's tornado (angle your shield up to prevent shield poking...or something). Give the game time instead of trying to rush judgement over a clearly beatable character. He's the best, sure, but this helpless "He needs a ban" status is pitiful.

This thread is a perfect example! Just look at the OP! This thread's just a rattle Samurai Panda gave the babbies so they'd quit crying all over Tactical discussion.

Edit: you people type too fast..

Edit edit @ Mmac: Quit now Mmac. He has leagues more experience than you. You've already proven that Yoshi's better than most thought, but no point in trying to argue here.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Yet, 48% Unavoidable Kills mean Nothing?

I'm not denying that M2K beat Pride, but Yoshi's game has greatly improved since M2K Played him.

How much have these things been tested, for one, and ,second, wouldn't Yoshi's standings be better if this was the case? Also, whatever happened to meteor canceling (or whatever the technical term now is)?

 

[Kizzu-kun]

Yet, 48% Unavoidable Kills mean Nothing?

I'm not denying that M2K beat Pride, but Yoshi's game has greatly improved since M2K Played him.

Hmm where did you get these infos about releasing into Forward Aerial?

I hope that weren't in Training Mode;
In the Marth Boards we had tested excessively the Release Grab against Metaknight, and is impossible to chain a Release to a UpSmash, but the training mode does commutes Consecutive Hits.

/off-topic/ M2K, did the Touhou games worked in your PC? (I know that we talked about this waaay ago, but anyway).

 

[Excellence]

This is a pool of pathetic. Why are people complaining so much about Meta Knight? He's hard? Get over it and get better.

 

[Mmac]

How much have these things been tested, for one, and ,second, wouldn't Yoshi's standings be better if this was the case? Also, whatever happened to meteor canceling (or whatever the technical term now is)?

1. They have been tested fully, they do indeed work.

2. You would think so, but no. It doesn't help the fact Yoshi is just a naturally unpopular character, and really only about 20 people really give a **** on what he does.

3. I could never get this so called "Meteor Cancelling" to work with MetaKnight, and I tried for a good couple of hours!

 

[Mmac]

I hope that weren't in Training Mode;
In the Marth Boards we had tested excessively the Release Grab against Metaknight, and is impossible to chain a Release to a UpSmash, but the training mode does commutes Consecutive Hits.

I tested it with real people in standard verses, and it does indeed work.

Edit: Crap, I would have expected someone to post in between, coming from the overall activeness of the thread

Do you mean against a CPU MetaKnight, or a Controlled MetaKnight?

I never test with CPU's

 

[NinjaFoxX]

an IC can beat meta no problem is they can CG perfect every time

IC wouldnt ever attack MK,scince MK out prioritizes them,this is where they would rely solely on grabs.

MK=no ban,but a soft ban wouldnt be that bad either

 

[Vulcan55]

I was going to respond to a post Yuna made earlier about comparing MK to X, Eddie, and Yun, and how I think that it's not a very good comparison, but I decided not to since that was, like, 6 hours ago. (unless, that is, someone really wants me to)

Also, Yuna may be egotistical, but at least he is correct.
All Meta-less tourneys will do is make it "seem" that more characters are flourishing, when really, not practicing against an MK is hurting you.

 

[adumbrodeus]

This is a pool of pathetic. Why are people complaining so much about Meta Knight? He's hard? Get over it and get better.

Obviously you haven't read a single argument here.

It isn't that MK is too hard that's being argued, it's that he's destructive to the metagame.

 

[Shining Blitz]

Why has no one replied to my post? I have also made a seperate thread in tournament disscussion for it. I think that this is a very real and possibly effective means of helping to balance brawl. I mean the 30% handicap, by the way.

 

[Rh1thmz]

Once i get tired of losing I'll main him.
...oh wait.

To quote Overswarm: "Metaknight is a plague."

[^^^] Amen!

This is why I don't like to discuss this topic...

 

[Yuna]

I know You played with Pride, but that was before the Release Edge to Fair spike kill at 48%, Release To Eggroll 0-40 Combo, or Release on Ground to DownB kill at 96%. He is improving greatly against MetaKnight, and still is as we speek

5 jumps and Up B Meteor Cancel.

3. I could never get this so called "Meteor Cancelling" to work with MetaKnight, and I tried for a good couple of hours!

It works as everyone. There's no such thing as a character who cannot Meteor Cancel.

It isn't that MK is too hard that's being argued, it's that he's destructive to the metagame.

Eddie in 3 different incarnations of GGXX, X in SCII and SCIII, Yun in 3S, Magneto, Storm and those other two in MvC2 (sorry, I don't play it).

Many games have definite Top Tiers who often do well or win tournaments. Many games have characters with no disadvantageous matchups. They're "destructive to the metagame". So? And how destructive are they, really?

No one has yet addressed the fact that Meta-Knight's prowess is carried out by a small number of elite Meta-Knight players and that there are still plenty of players who win using characters other than Meta-Knight. Or that he's only winning by a small margin a lot of the time.

He's the best character in the game, get over it. He's only winning over the rest by a small margin. So what?

Why has no one replied to my post? I have also made a seperate thread in tournament disscussion for it. I think that this is a very real and possibly effective means of helping to balance brawl. I mean the 30% handicap, by the way.

No, we do not give out handicaps in Competitive play. There.

 

[GofG]

But... there's no meteor canceling in brawl.

 

[Yuna]

But... there's no meteor canceling in brawl.

There is. It's just different.

 

[Blad01]

The thing is : Metaknight is the most powerful character in the game. Ok. But he's also the quickest to learn... That destroys the metagame.

 

[Yuna]

The thing is : Metaknight is the most powerful character in the game. Ok. But he's also the quickest to learn... That destroys the metagame.

How easy a character is to play technically is inconsequential and irrelevant.