The Marth Matchup Ratio Thread (V2)

[Nike.]

Marth BBR Matchup Chart Thread

-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:

-4: (close to) unwinnable
-3: large disadvantage/hard countered
-2: medium disadvantage
-1: small disadvantage
0: even
+1: small advantage
+2: medium advantage
+3: large advantage/hard counter
+4: (close to) unloseable

Discrepancies from the Marth boards

Spoiler

Anaky
+1:
+2:


Raziek
+1:


Nike
-2:
±0:
1:


Gheb
-1/-2:
-1:
±0:


Laem
±0:


C.J.
±0:
1:


Rei-Gun
-2:
±0:
1:


S.F.H.
±0:


Future
1:
2:

 

[Dopl-G]

Reserved!?

 

[Trio3!]

I agree, then again i would agree duh.

 

[Nike.]

I think Kadaj had a part in the project as well.

Shouldn't it be listed in the +1, 0, -1 format instead of 45-55, 50-50, 55-45?

As for what I disagree with and think should be changed:

-2
-2
+1
0
0
+1

I keep flipping back and forth with Diddy. It's weird for me to list him as -2, yet it feels like he beats us as hard as Metaknight and DDD.

With the exception of what I listed, I agree with everything else. From what Shaya pointed out in the social, marth's first draft was already perfect and then the other characters argued it enough to get it changed.

 

[Trio3!]

Theres a few i would change as well, but Wario would be the only Major change, i can settle for the rest.

The ratios are just better and more understandable.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah... trying to convert 0 to +3 into just 50:50-65:35 seems wrong.

I would consider some of our +1s still feasibly 60:40 in the old style of thinking. Some of our "50:50s" may even tip towards our favour slightly in a 55:45 fashion.

 

[PEACE7]

Loving this we should do Diddy next.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Wait what? lol

I think the list is for the most part very spot on. And Marth only has slight disadv. vs the 3 listed.

Thing only thing I'd have changed would be ROB/DK mus to slightly favor us but I'm biased towards those two mus

 

[Freezewish]

Thing only thing I'd have changed would be ROB/DK mus to slightly favor us but I'm biased towards those two mus

Marth vs those 2 seem like a slight disadvantage. I'm surprised you still think Marth does well/beats ROB. Share your secrets <.<

 

[Shaya]

IMO, against ROB, it's pretty simple.

We outdisjoint him.
He can't touch the ground.

 

[Mr-R]

tbh I dissagree with this list XD

link should be 65:35
toon link 55:45
falco 55:45
diddy 50:50

and quite a few more

 

[Nike.]

Gluttony hasn't convinced you that falco is even yet?

I wanna play in EU. Instead of striking Smashville and then effing banning it like *****s, they play entire sets on it <333

 

[Shaya]

Please show the ratios like the BBR. The way you've shown them is kinda stupid.

It's not official.
It's not an accurate representation of the BBR match up chart.

Please change it or discard the thread.

 

[Trio3!]

Almost every person is gonna disagree with one of these matchups so that really isnt the case atm.

Also -1, +3, 0 etc is pretty much the same as 45:55, 65:35, 50:50 etc. But i think it'd be a good idea to put them both on.

Maybe with certain matchups, it can be like:

Metaknight
Slight Disadvantage [-1] (45:55) {Arguably -2/40:60}

Makes sense to everyone then. And also ratios dont have to be like that all the time, obviously players get better and we see matchups at higher level of player which leads to discussions on new ratios, hence why this thread is a matchup thread, we needed a new one, and this guy is willing to do it, just needs confirmation from people first, before anything goes to waste.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

this list sucks and is innaccurate

 

[Trio3!]

this list sucks and is innaccurate

It is for 2009 players.

 

[clowsui]

this list sucks and is innaccurate

actually i'd like to see your opinion on some of these, as you haven't said anything about MUs in ages

 

[VibeSlyph]

I'm kinda iffy on a lot of this. Somehow I knew that Marth's MUs wouldn't stay at 60/40 forever, but this is just a rip-off.

I've always felt confident that we had an advantage over Diddy, and a STRONG advantage over Pikachu and Falco.

I mean, if I can beat Pikapika's Pikachu with my **** Marth, and make him have to switch to Meta [He two stocked me both games after, so not trying to gloat.], then I think it's pretty strong in our favor.

Falco. Falco just gets styled on imo. lol.

I also agree with Kadaj that R.O.B. is in our favor slightly.

Sbeik, Ike, Fox, and Olimar, are all definite 60/40's as well.

So what the hell happened Marth players? We're apparently getting destroyed by 2011 metagame, either that or we just need to STEP IT THE **** UP, AND TAKE SOME MONEY FROM SOME PEOPLE.

 

[Shaya]

Vibe.
The way that the match ups are shown is wrong.
+1 does not equal 55:45.

also, I argued pika as +2... but.... ESAM........ ......

 

[Tagxy]

That can't be placed entirely on ESAM. While he may have singularly prevented a +2 its far from an uncommon opinion. I doubt youll find any high level pikachu who believes the MU is +2, and it's increasingly rare for midlevels as well.

And while I personally don't mind +1, ESAM certainly isnt the only high level pika to have believed the MU was even. Anther felt it was even as well and in his heyday had results to support it (as does ESAM currently).

 

[Trio3!]

Changed due to

Plz sticky thread, this will be a succesful thread.

 

[VibeSlyph]

Vibe.
The way that the match ups are shown is wrong.
+1 does not equal 55:45.

also, I argued pika as +2... but.... ESAM........ ......

Then what? 60/40?

and then 0 is anywhere between 55-45 and 45-55?

 

[Steam]

We're getting rid of the number system. ignore it.

+1 slight advantage
+2 medium Advantage
+ 3 strong advantage
+ 4 Lol

I also think marth is overrated on this chart. that is all.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Overrated? Get out of here lol

 

[Steam]

if you consider +1 as 55-45 I guess it's okay...

But in reality he needs more zeros :/

 

[_Kadaj_]

We aren't lucario lmao

 

[Steam]

then they'd all be -1s

tho he should have a 0 with marth IMO

 

[Reizilla]

MK and DDD = -2
TL and Falco = +1
ZSS, Lucario and Snake = 0

All this +/- nonsense is too ambiguous. Match-ups were bad enough before.

 

[Nike.]

I never felt the Lucario MU to be even. Even after losing to Trela a few times, it seemed like he just outplayed me.

Marth's BBR MU's aren't nearly as bad as other characters. Alot of the ones we disagree with are just minor changes and not obvious "THAT'S WRONG".

Did Pierce have any particitation in this in all honesty? He completely dissapeared during the past few months and came back after Pound5.

 

[Shaya]

He gave his initial opinion on match ups, and that was all.

 

[Steam]

I never felt the Lucario MU to be even. Even after losing to Trela a few times, it seemed like he just outplayed me.

I do think that it's still a very slight marth favor due to marth just having more reliable options to fall back on. But I think it's even enough for a 0 on the new scale.

 

[Pierce7d]

I never felt the Lucario MU to be even. Even after losing to Trela a few times, it seemed like he just outplayed me.

This is exactly how I feel as well. I played a bunch of matches against him, and he went slightly above even, but I feel like it's because Trela is just rusty, and I certainly feel like if I was regularly practiced in the MU like I used to be, where I consistently SDIed Dair and avoided getting hit, etc, then I would've done even better than that. I strongly, STRONGLY believe Marth has advantage in this MU, although now I believe it's +1 whereas before I believed it was +2 because Lucario players have developed their movement, and are starting to utilize their mobility better.

Did Pierce have any particitation in this in all honesty? He completely dissapeared during the past few months and came back after Pound5.

No, not really. I was away.

 

[VibeSlyph]

Marth overrated

I like how this is coming from the guy who used to sub Wolf to counter Marth.

Also this +1/-1 business is pretty terrible, gotta admit. I've never really liked MU threads though, I've always had my personal MUs and never really cared about outside opinion, but it really does pain me to see Diddy anywhere below 55/45 Marth.

 

[Steam]

I think both D3 and Snake are both overrated on the tier list to a degree and they're lucario's worst two matchups.

besides, what I did over a year ago doesn't matter. that was before I learned to not jump.

 

[Ykana]

Imo i think you have a clear advantage on us.

 

[xxmoosexx]

Can I ask why you guys opted for this -1/+1 shenanigan?

Why not stick to being absolutely normal and go with the regular and mainstream and excruciatingly painful use of XX/XX format?

I honestly feel like we have had always had an advantage over diddy around 60/40. Where did this crap come from where we are now losing to that piece of ****? Marth definitely has a fairly easier time getting control of diddy's bananas than most of the cast. Marth has the speed, mobility, and moves to gain control of diddy's bananas and then procede to **** on him once the bananas are under his control.

I've always felt like we had atleast an advantage of 60/40 on pikachu. Yea ESAM and Anther but it seems to me like the smash community in general is producing players that are transcendent of match ups and can't necessarily use them, kind of like an outlier.

I've always felt we've had a pretty hard disadvantage from both MK and D3 of atleast 40/60. But thats just me. So now I will leave you to taking offense to my post and completely shut down any thoughts I had while doing it in a negative tone.


EDIT: Wow, I wasted my 1,000th post on the marth boards when EL wasn't even here. godammit.

 

[Raziek]

It's primarily because every board seems to have a different definition of what "60/40" is. So we circumvented the pre-established standards and went with something simpler.

I can't really offer specific personal opinions when it comes to Diddy, since there are no good Diddy players around here. However, that one didn't come up as a discrepancy, so I'm pretty sure the panels both independently agreed on -1 Marth, and left it at that.

As for Pikachu, you should honestly be happy with +1, because ESAM tried to argue it as even. >_>

We said MK was -2, but conceded that when they all said it was +1 for them.

D3 we just straight up agreed to -1, no discrepancy came up.

 

[xxmoosexx]

Well...whatev's this list doesn't affect anything about me.

What was the point of this thing again?

I guess those are really my only discrepancies.

I do feel like I need to go into my opinions deeper though.

Concerning Diddy~ The only thing he has is his fair and bananas. The whole match revolves around gaining control of his bananas. Marth can't play like he usually does. He first must get control of the bananas. For marth this is pretty easy with his aerial mobility, speed, and his sword. Not hard to deal with diddy at all without a banana, Marth can play as aggressive as he wants to. All he has to watch out for is his fair and any sneaky grabs. Retreating fair beats any variant of his fair. Sneaky grabs? Zoning, Spacing, Momentum, Reaction...those are your tools.

So TL;DR - The reason I feel marth has an advantage is because he has an easy time controlling bananas(not necessarily using them), and without bananas diddy gets ***** by offensive/pressure marth.

Pikachu~ Simply because Marth outranges many of his options. Of course I didn't get to listen ESAM so Im not as concrete as I am about diddy. When I've played Pikachu it just seems like we wall him out. He probably does have options to get past Marth. I need experience. I'd actually like to hear ESAM's thoughts on the MU. Pikachu can gimp us if we let him.

D3~ His massive grab which punishes even spaced fairs, (im not even sure if retreating fairs are safe from his grab), his ftilt which outranges all of our reasonable options. He can gimp us if we get predictable. Our fair is nullified. Dtilt isn't long enough. DB is only there to punish in this MU. Full Hop Fairs are reasonable but D3 can abuse us being above him with his monstrous Utilt, long lasting aerials, his smashes, and if he feels like it he could just grab us on our decent.

MK~ We don't have options. His range is better than ours. Gimps like no tomorrow. DB is the only reason we have a chance. If the MK's would learn how to space like every other character has to then he wouldn't have such a hard time. IMO MK should play the match with zoning in mind.

Thats all I can think of.

 

[Kuro~]

Nairs own D3 imo. lol.

 

[LooftWaffles]

MK~ We don't have options. His range is better than ours. Gimps like no tomorrow. DB is the only reason we have a chance. If the MK's would learn how to space like every other character has to then he wouldn't have such a hard time. IMO MK should play the match with zoning in mind.

No. Just no. Debateable whether his range is better than ours, we beat him in the air rangewise. MKs range is also a blessing..... hes going to willingly operate around our tipper range.


Have you ever tried standing still against MK? Pivot grab beats every grounded apporach; its hilarious. If he apporoaches with an aerial, DS beats it. Nado? Loses to pivot grab, fsmash, DB and DS. Id argue that from a neutral position, the MU is either even or slightly in Marths favor.

Offstage? Different story entirely.