The Mario Rediscussion Thread. Currently Rediscussing: Diddy Kong

[Veggi]

I almost wish roll dodging wasn't in this game.

 

[Big-Omar]

Lol roll dodge. Lucarios abuse it and Marios dont benefit from it

 

[hippiedude92]

so mario has to look for small platform stages and camp throughout the whole match? and he cant fulyl combo lucario

fml

 

[Kanzaki]

I've played FlameWaveK once in tourney.. My Luigi first, I was winning until he camped out last stock and I got impatient :[ Then my Fox beat him.. then he went Kirby and beat my Fox :[


Other than that, I've played FlameWaveK like 4 or 5 times in doubles, and I usually go all Mario there, still haven't lost a doubles match yet :D

 

[phi1ny3]

hehe Lucario sux in doubles most of the time (unless they're doing that "Anubis" strategy, then he's awesome)

His multiplier counts everyone's stocks in the game, and decreasers don't go away when the opponent dies D:

Which reminds me of another point: Lucario's aura also gets buffed/debuffed depending on how many stocks ahead/behind he is v. his opponent's. He gets about a x1.2 if he's behind, and x.8 if he's ahead, and x1.4 if he's two behind, etc. It miffs his high aura, but at that point he's **** anyways, but it does help if he's behind because it helps him get some at least some reasonable KO power earlier so that he doesn't suck entirely from getting behind in the game.

 

[Veggi]

Anubis strategy?

*eyes glitter*

 

[phi1ny3]

Basically you get a meta gay/some good camper/planker on your team and make lucario fight 2 v 1, the MK will come in and pick on one of them if they decide to do the grab release shenanigans or basically whenever Lucario gets in trouble. Lucario gets them up to about 50% or so before he dies, and when he respawns, the aura boost stacks up for all the opponents, but most importantly, your teammate's as being higher than his, and he basically gets to become super saiyan for the rest of the match as long as the partner doesn't die before you do. It sounds stupid, but it works really well lol.

Oh yeah, for those who don't know, Force Palm CG isn't a true CG, you can mash out of the grab like a normal one, but you have to be really fast.

 

[Big-Omar]

We need a ratio lol.

 

[A2ZOMG]

55/45 or 6/4 Lucario's favor.

Seems accurate enough honestly. I think the ratio should actually be between those two values personally. like 57/43 lol.

 

[junebug]

Aight, I haven't played boss IRL in some while (or any mario IRL besides P~S, who doesn't even play mario xD...I think?). I'll try my input though, don't hurt me if im wrong:

Lucario just seems hard to kill for mario. Correct me if im wrong, but you're probably only getting a kill through a mindgame -> fsmash or upsmash, amirite? Or maybe some jab -> dsmash shiz? Yeah, good lucarios are gonna have no trouble living to ridiculously high percents. And most matchups that lucario gets to live to high percents, he wins.

Also lucario can kinda throw out his hitboxes and **** most of mario's approaches. If mario gets inside, he can cause some damage with uairs, nairs, that sexy dair, etc. Getting inside a lucarios wall of fairs, fsmashes, ftilts dairs, and other random a$$ hitboxes is really hard. For some reason, marios that just camp with bairs and fireballs seem to do better against lucario in general. Of course, lucario can camp harder and better but in general the mario will need to camp.

Mario won't get gimped hardcore by lucario if he's smart, at least in my opinion. It'll be hard to land those few fairs to gimp him if he's recovering right. If i knock a mario far away and attempt to gimp him with fairs, i'll usually fail. fair gimps with lucario will probably happen when the mario is reasonably close to the ledge (either above or below) and the lucario just reads his position and WoPs him away. But theres always that risk that the Lucario lands a fsmash when mario is on the ledge, hits you with no jump, or some other situation where your recovery is limited that you won't be able to get back. So the mario has to be really careful with his jumps + ledge game.

Um, did i miss anything? I'll add stuff if i know it and you guys ask for it. Sorry if i did this wrong.

 

[Big-Omar]

Seems right to me, junebug. Wanna talk about which stages Lucario will do bad/good on?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Jab D-smash is in fact legit though keep in mind. Now if only it killed a little earlier...

 

[Veggi]

FLUDD Lucario away when he tries to edgeguard you. I'm going to keep repeating this until I see other Marios use FLUDD as an anti-edgeguard tool.

 

[Big-Omar]

FLUDD Lucario away when he tries to edgeguard you. I'm going to keep repeating this until I see other Marios use FLUDD as an anti-edgeguard tool.

I will. LOL

 

[Matador]

FLUDD Lucario away when he tries to edgeguard you. I'm going to keep repeating this until I see other Marios use FLUDD as an anti-edgeguard tool.

I have yet to be punished for this.

By any character. Marth, MK, G&W and D3 included.

The only time I've seen this backfire is if I misjudge the distance of the Fludd pushback and can't reach the ledge...and the more I do it...the less this happens.

Edit @ June: Perfect overview dude. Thanks for the input. We need to play XD

 

[Big-Omar]

I wanna say this Ratio is 50:50 cus Im Bias lol. But it does seem 55:45 Lucario's favor.

 

[Veggi]

I feel so humiliated when I misjudge the distance I can recover after using FLUDD.

 

[Big-Omar]

I feel so humiliated when I misjudge the distance I can recover after using FLUDD.

And THAT is why i save my double jump

 

[Matt07]

I've actually never really tried using FLUDD as an anti-edgeguard tool...

Good suggestions, I'll start implementing that into my game .

Also, saving your DJ is a good idea, but I always use it to cancel momentum.

 

[junebug]

Yeah, stages, mario is gonna want platforms to camp on+ early kills and Lucario is gonna want flat stages and gimping edges. Lucario: FD, frigate, etc. Mario: halberd, BF, etc.

And FLUDD is pretty good against lucario's recovery, since cape won't do anything.

Thanks matador. :D

I'm thinking 60:40 or 55:45 lucario right now. I might be wrong though.

 

[Matador]

Actually, Mario can cape Lucario's recovery, you just can't do it during start-up. You can only cape him while he's moving.

It can be difficult to time perfectly, but it turns him around similar to Fox or Falco's illusion; usually an insta-gimp. Either way, it's best to Fludd first...

Fludd is too good at anti-edgeguarding.

 

[Big-Omar]

FLUDD is too pro.

 

[Veggi]

I know it's possible to cape Lucario in the middle of his up b, but on time I caped him a bit before he got to the edge and he just grabbed it anyway. It made me cry.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I want to make a statement on the Bowser matchup. Anyone up for hearing me out?

 

[Matador]

Go for it dude.

*opens can of soda* *pops popcorn*

 

[mars16]

Cool.... pass the popcorn

 

[Inferno3044]

On the Lucario MU, we really got on it and didn't do any *****ing. My opinion with all the facts in place is that it's not even. We all know that. On the other hand I don't think Lucario wins per se. I definitely think Mario can win, but it's a bit hard since our kill power isn't that good making him able to do more damage to us as we rack damage. I do not think it's 60:40 Lucario, but I'll agree with either 55:45 or 57:43.

As for Bowser, I want to hear.

 

[Big-Omar]

Mario ***** bowser. nuff said man just uair his fat A$$

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, I have this theory that Mario outzones Bowser harder than I've ever expected (on top of still winning due to how easily he gimps Bowser). I'm suspecting that Mario wins vs Bowser 6/4 to 65/35 on all stages.

I only tried this strategy on wifi, so I need other opinions of it. What I think Mario can do to Bowser is just repeatedly poke with fireballs and B-airs, and whenever Bowser tries to approach past those pokes, you just Up-B. This strategy in particular works especially well on Battlefield, which is one of Bowser's best stages. While Bowser usually likes using platforms defensively, Mario has his own twist on platform abuse by using them to mix up his landing in case he whiffs an Up-B (which ideally should be very infrequent as you should be observing when Bowser is approaching with attacks).

In theory, I really don't think Bowser has a legitimate counter to the strategy I used if Mario properly Up-Bs on reaction to whatever approach Bowser tries. Bowser is such a huge target that if you see him jump, and he does not airdodge, he WILL get hit by Up-B. With this strategy shutting down most of Bowser's viable strategies and keeping him in a disadvantageous position, you will have a lot more freedom to mix up other forms of offense once you get the rhythm established. Oh and to make things harder for Bowser, his F-tilt is pretty easy to punish with reverse F-smashes.

Next question is how well this strategy works against Donkey Kong. Donkey Kong's approach is also pretty predictable, and he's a huge target.

 

[Inferno3044]

Yeah, I have this theory that Mario outzones Bowser harder than I've ever expected (on top of still winning due to how easily he gimps Bowser). I'm suspecting that Mario wins vs Bowser 6/4 to 65/35 on all stages.

I only tried this strategy on wifi, so I need other opinions of it. What I think Mario can do to Bowser is just repeatedly poke with fireballs and B-airs, and whenever Bowser tries to approach past those pokes, you just Up-B. This strategy in particular works especially well on Battlefield, which is one of Bowser's best stages. While Bowser usually likes using platforms defensively, Mario has his own twist on platform abuse by using them to mix up his landing in case he whiffs an Up-B (which ideally should be very infrequent as you should be observing when Bowser is approaching with attacks).

In theory, I really don't think Bowser has a legitimate counter to the strategy I used if Mario properly Up-Bs on reaction to whatever approach Bowser tries. Bowser is such a huge target that if you see him jump, and he does not airdodge, he WILL get hit by Up-B. With this strategy shutting down most of Bowser's viable strategies and keeping him in a disadvantageous position, you will have a lot more freedom to mix up other forms of offense once you get the rhythm established. Oh and to make things harder for Bowser, his F-tilt is pretty easy to punish with reverse F-smashes.

Next question is how well this strategy works against Donkey Kong. Donkey Kong's approach is also pretty predictable, and he's a huge target.

Well we can discuss Bowser now if you want to assuming Lucario's done. As for DK, if this does work, it won't work as well. His bair is a very reliable approach and DK has a lot of range. Btw, who was the original person who said Mario beat Bowser 60:40? Me. If this is true, then this is the icing on the cake.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I initially assumed Bowser beat Mario slightly on BF due to the fact it's harder to gimp him and can be harder to approach him consistently if he knows how to abuse platforms, although this was kinda ignoring Mario's poke options. If you space really carefully, and implement good vertical spacing on his huge frame, it's pretty hard for him to punish you.

Either way, BF is definitely Bowser's best stage, but this strategy I have intends to take full advantage of BF and Bowser's general weaknesses, since the idea is that Bowser lacks the tools to hit Mario feasibly if you are doing this strategy correctly, and platforms minimize punishment in the event you whiff. I used it with great success on wifi (where I usually think a character like Mario is worse, and Bowser is better), so all that remains is opinion of its use in a practical match. If this means Mario wins on all stages, then this matchup definitely is anywhere from 6/4 to 65/35 in Mario's favor.

And of course, Mario is too good for low tiers. But we all knew that anyway.

 

[Veggi]

Mario jumps. Bowser punches him in the face with ftilt. Spacing against Bowser is harder than it sounds. I don't think you guys are giving Bowser enough credit. If Bowser can't punish Mario's psuedo-approach camp shenanigans, I really don't think other characters can either. Bowser's firebreath extends past Mario's baiting distance which makes it a threat. Bowser's up b is also a beast punishing move, so if this aggressive camping stuff we do on other characters doesn't wreck them, I don't see how it would wreck Bowser. Keep in mind that fireballs from a distance farther than a Wario player baits from are not a threat. Those can be easily power shielded or even just normally shielded without the Mario player being able to capitilize on it.

Not all of Bowser's advances can be up b'd out of shield. Grabbing, Koopa Klawing, and firebreath are all viable tactics against an up b happy Mario. I'm not sure if there are other Bowser (one of my secondaries) users who use this, but when recovering I use Bowser's firebreath while I'm moving torward the stage to prevent people from edgeguarding me. There is also the option of using Whirling Fortress earlier than the Mario wants so that Bowser lands on the stage in free fall (preferably on a platform) to avoid being edgeguarded. Obviously, there are still chances to edgeguard Bowser, but I can't see gimping him become consistent when he has options to mix up his recovery.

About DK, that strategy just won't work at all. First off, I think DK's retreating bair is safe on Mario's shield. Second, he has many methods of approach that are vastly different than each other including bair, down b, or up b with superarmor as the most major ones. Mario's psuedo-aggressive game is also not set in stone against DK because of DK's giant ftilt, super armor up b, and bair.

 

[hippiedude92]

Vex should have a good say in this... Kirin has fought him alot in low tier events a couple of times

 

[Inferno3044]

Can we get back to Lucario unless you guys think we are done?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario jumps. Bowser punches him in the face with ftilt. Spacing against Bowser is harder than it sounds. I don't think you guys are giving Bowser enough credit. If Bowser can't punish Mario's psuedo-approach camp shenanigans, I really don't think other characters can either.

Indeed, that is what I believe, since Bowser is just terrible.

Bowser's firebreath extends past Mario's baiting distance which makes it a threat.

SDI -> U-air every time.

Bowser's up b is also a beast punishing move, so if this aggressive camping stuff we do on other characters doesn't wreck them, I don't see how it would wreck Bowser. Keep in mind that fireballs from a distance farther than a Wario player baits from are not a threat. Those can be easily power shielded or even just normally shielded without the Mario player being able to capitilize on it.

Learn your spacing (vertical spacing in particular works really well here due to Bowser being HUGE) and you should really be rarely getting sweetspot Up-Bed out of shield. He has to be on top of you basically for him to sweetspot that move, and if he doesn't, it only does 2% basically.

Not all of Bowser's advances can be up b'd out of shield. Grabbing, Koopa Klawing, and firebreath are all viable tactics against an up b happy Mario.

Says who I was Up-Bing out of shield? I'm just blatantly Up-Bing when I see Bowser jump. His ground game is massively punishable by reverse F-smashes, so I don't care about it.

I'm not sure if there are other Bowser (one of my secondaries) users who use this, but when recovering I use Bowser's firebreath while I'm moving torward the stage to prevent people from edgeguarding me.

Been there and done that before since I also second Bowser, it is not that good. Firebreath has pretty massive ending lag.

There is also the option of using Whirling Fortress earlier than the Mario wants so that Bowser lands on the stage in free fall (preferably on a platform) to avoid being edgeguarded. Obviously, there are still chances to edgeguard Bowser, but I can't see gimping him become consistent when he has options to mix up his recovery.

this is only good on battlefield, all he's doing if he tries to Up-B early on any other stage without amazing platform layout is ****** himself and giving his opponent a free hit that either kills or resets the situation.

 

[Veggi]

Alright, I agree then and I'll just trust your information about Bowser's ground game being punishable by a pivot smash OOS, which sounds kind of wonky but I'll take it. I believe Bowser is a less than decent character, but not terrible. I remember Bowser's non sweetspot up b doing 4%, but it's not that important. Becuase of Bowser's up b it makes cross ups on his shield less useful because he can just up b Mario. It also makes landing in front of Bowser in general very dangerous.

Bowser's firebreath isn't punishable with uair unless he keeps it going long enough for Mario to get to him. The landing lag of offstage firebreath isn't relevant because he has more than enough time to end it below the edge and make it back up and the firebreath did its job at not letting people edgeguard Bowser.

Bowser can block Mario's approaches just like Mario can block his. Jab and ftilt stop sh approaches (mainly because of Mario's low and non-disjointed range) well.

Up-b'ing Bowser when he jumps is not set in stone either, he can bait people and not commit to approaches in the same way Mario can, if Mario up b's a Bowser that isn't vulnerable to it, the Mario is going to get punished hard for missing.

The extent of punishing Bowser for up b'ing early while recovering is completely percent based. Depending on the percent, he won't be put into the same position. At higher percents at least Bowser can DI the inevitable Mario backthrow or bair to make him harder to edgeguard again.

Sorry about not quoting you, I'm not sure why I didn't. I'll do it next time to make it easier to read.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Alright, I agree then and I'll just trust your information about Bowser's ground game being punishable by a pivot smash OOS, which sounds kind of wonky but I'll take it.

It doesn't have to be out of shield, if he just whiffs in general, and your reaction is good, you can just reverse F-smash and it has more range.

Although his F-tilt is in fact punishable by F-smash out of shield.

I believe Bowser is a less than decent character, but not terrible. I remember Bowser's non sweetspot up b doing 4%, but it's not that important. Becuase of Bowser's up b it makes cross ups on his shield less useful because he can just up b Mario. It also makes landing in front of Bowser in general very dangerous.

Well you don't need to cross him up. Fullhop B-airs shouldn't get Up-Bed out of shield.

Bowser's firebreath isn't punishable with uair unless he keeps it going long enough for Mario to get to him. The landing lag of offstage firebreath isn't relevant because he has more than enough time to end it below the edge and make it back up and the firebreath did its job at not letting people edgeguard Bowser.

I think you underestimate how powerful proper SDI is and how his firebreath is just horribly laggy in general. If he ends Firebreath below the edge, you should be caping him. Otherwise if he's ending it earlier, just hit him with U-air or B-air and he'll be further offstage.

Bowser can block Mario's approaches just like Mario can block his. Jab and ftilt stop sh approaches (mainly because of Mario's low and non-disjointed range) well.

While it is true that shieldcamping is applicable to everyone, Mario has superior poke and zoning options that make it harder for him to be punished if you know what you're doing. Bowser's game is much more limited since he has very few viable poke options.

Up-b'ing Bowser when he jumps is not set in stone either, he can bait people and not commit to approaches in the same way Mario can, if Mario up b's a Bowser that isn't vulnerable to it, the Mario is going to get punished hard for missing.

This is why this strategy is so good on Battlefield. The platform layout makes it MUCH harder for Mario to be punished if he whiffs. If Bowser jumps and he does not airdodge, Up-B WILL hit him. You can angle Up-B to essentially travel at a 45 degree angle, and this covers the entire space between the left and fight platform of BF. He's just too big a target to avoid it easily, and his aerials are too slow and lack the priority to properly deal with Mario's Up-B.

The extent of punishing Bowser for up b'ing early while recovering is completely percent based. Depending on the percent, he won't be put into the same position. At higher percents at least Bowser can DI the inevitable Mario backthrow or bair to make him harder to edgeguard again.

Alternatively, at high percents, you can also Up-smash him for the KO, especially he continues relying on platforms for recovery. And if he doesn't land on a platform, a Sliding Up-smash will kill him at about 130%.

 

[Inferno3044]

I'm assuming we are now discussing Bowser? I'll move on if you guys want. I'll put it as 57:43 Lucario unless anybody objects.

 

[Big-Omar]

55:45
Lucario CANNOT have more of an advantage than 55:45.

 

[Veggi]

I think you might be right, A2ZOMG. I don't think Mario's advantages are large enough to warrant a 65-35 or 60-40 though.

Is it alright if we play on wifi for you to show me how the matchup is supposed to be handled? You play Mario, I'll play Bowser. We'll do some friendlies, obviously not for win ratio because it's wifi and it will just end in being angry at eachother. My disc has some problems with Bowser and gives me a disc error at times if I don't choose Bowser quickly enough and move to the match (it's wierd) so if I leave I'll get back on wifi quickly and try again. If it still doesn't work I'll play around with DK.