Big-Omar
Smash Journeyman
LOL, one whole discussion into one post
i agree with you on everything you said, and Peach gets ***** on RC.
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The Mario Rediscussion Thread. Currently Rediscussing: Diddy Kong
- Thread starter Inferno3044
- Start date
i agree with you on everything you said, and Peach gets ***** on RC.
Inferno3044
Smash Master
Peach is probably one of my worst MU's but I refuse to rediscuss her. Go on the Original MU thread and you'll see why. Let's choose a different character.
Big-Omar
Smash Journeyman
Why haven't we discussed Metaknight yet? >___>
Thats what i wanna know
Thats what i wanna know
Inferno3044
Smash Master
hippiedude92
Smash Hero
Let's try Lucario?
jajajja?
jajajja?
Big-Omar
Smash Journeyman
Yea, maybe we should rediscuss Lucario. I dont believe its 55:45 Lucario. More like 55.45 Mario >_>
Inferno3044
Smash Master
I'm cool with that. Lucario I think is a threat and there's definitely some good ones (Zucco).
Big-Omar
Smash Journeyman
Never had any good lucario experience, but from what i see, you gotta be careful around them. You can't just combo them. You gotta make sure you finish them off fast, or they'll kill you with an aura sphere and the lucario is at 150+ damage. But if you do combo him, hes gonna break your uair chains with dair or use his double team attack. What I do is dthrow, sheild his dair, then grab him again. Also, hes floaty like ****, so he'll be easily jab canceled and his doesnt weigh that much either, i think. So he will die pretty fast if you know what you are doing. just be careful to knock him out before he knocks out you with a fsmash or aura sphere at 150+ damage.
Inferno3044
Smash Master
You shouldn't be getting hit by Aura Sphere often. It is true that his dair is a very good combo breaker, but they won't use Double Team against you. He really doesn't die fast. Although he's floaty, he's upper mid weight (heavier than Mario) Also, he definitely doesn't need to be at that high percents to kill. There's something very important you didn't say: his range. It's really disjointed and really good. His damage does more if he has more damage he has on him and if he's at a stock disadvantage. Also, Fsmash isn't his only kill move. His air is as good as ours, if not better I believe. Fireballs > Aura Sphere so we can camp him better.
Big-Omar
Smash Journeyman
Well, i did say I never had any good Lucario experience. Lol...
But now that you did mention his range, his fsmash can decieve you. Very disjointed.
And for some reason, IMO, Lucario is easy to edge hog cus his B up doesnt flinch you if he "attacks" you with it.
But now that you did mention his range, his fsmash can decieve you. Very disjointed.
And for some reason, IMO, Lucario is easy to edge hog cus his B up doesnt flinch you if he "attacks" you with it.
hippiedude92
Smash Hero
you'd be surprised the stuff that comes after aura sphere lol.
expect this match to be usually 6 mins~ long each against a good lucario, you'll need to bait his stuff out and be very patient in analyzing his gay rolling habits.
on the ledge, lucario has good ledge traps on mario since he outranges him and from what ive seen and experienced, lucario lands their fsmash kos at high %s just simply spamming that crap, don't always ledgedrop against lucario, instead just bait him into trying him getting offstage trying to gimp you, he's terrible at that point
of course when you dthrow them, they'll probably dair you, you can either shield it, or do what kirin does, and go for dthrow and hit them to the side with bair or something.
walking is your best approach here, you have all your options open and you can actually PS many of his moves from simply walking.
also before landing, you should throw a cape stall, it usually throws off some lucario's momentum sometimes.
ledge trapping and gimping lucario is what you should be looking for, edge hogs, spiking, caping, fludding making a huge wall for lucario so he wont get back on stage,
oh and camp the **** outta him he's really dumb.
expect this match to be usually 6 mins~ long each against a good lucario, you'll need to bait his stuff out and be very patient in analyzing his gay rolling habits.
on the ledge, lucario has good ledge traps on mario since he outranges him and from what ive seen and experienced, lucario lands their fsmash kos at high %s just simply spamming that crap, don't always ledgedrop against lucario, instead just bait him into trying him getting offstage trying to gimp you, he's terrible at that point
of course when you dthrow them, they'll probably dair you, you can either shield it, or do what kirin does, and go for dthrow and hit them to the side with bair or something.
walking is your best approach here, you have all your options open and you can actually PS many of his moves from simply walking.
also before landing, you should throw a cape stall, it usually throws off some lucario's momentum sometimes.
ledge trapping and gimping lucario is what you should be looking for, edge hogs, spiking, caping, fludding making a huge wall for lucario so he wont get back on stage,
oh and camp the **** outta him he's really dumb.
Big-Omar
Smash Journeyman
Lol, I dont see how this match up is 55:45 Lucario if lucario is, by hippie says, "really dumb"
Should be 55:45 Mario
Should be 55:45 Mario
DtJ XeroXen
The biggest fraud
Noooo, it's defiantly in Lucario's favor. By "really dumb" he means "Lucario is ****ing gay"
Big-Omar
Smash Journeyman
Sorry, im noob man lol
I play wifi scrubs and all that ****
I play wifi scrubs and all that ****
Veggi
Smash Champion
I cape Lucario's up b and it does nothing. wtf.
Big-Omar
Smash Journeyman
Yea Veggi, Lucario is ghey like that. Just edgehog him. he cant stage spike you cus his Up B wont even make you flinch.
Inferno3044
Smash Master
I've definitely caped a Lucario. I know this very well because that was my a cape gimp on a Lucario was my very first tourney kill. Then again, he thought he could go right past me. Funny that it was Zucco.
Big-Omar
Smash Journeyman
Maybe you caped him before he executed the Up B. i think veggi is talking about caping Lucario DURING the Up B.
Inferno3044
Smash Master
It was during. He tried to go right past me and I replied with "taste my pimp hand!" Let's move on to a different aspect of the MU.
Big-Omar
Smash Journeyman
Hmmm....
How do we deal with the ghey Dair that breaks our combos?
I just bait his Dair, like uair, jump away, then punish his dair with nair and such. Also, i like dthrow then sheilding his dair.
How do we deal with the ghey Dair that breaks our combos?
I just bait his Dair, like uair, jump away, then punish his dair with nair and such. Also, i like dthrow then sheilding his dair.
A2ZOMG
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Peach I think is even...you can camp her a lot and F-smash outranges her. You have a superior out of shield game and can punish her offensive stuff, and she really has a ton of trouble scoring KOs easily without lucky Bombombs. Jab D-smash also ***** her.
Fighting Lucario is like G&W, except he's a lot more campy and rarely ever approaches, and you can gimp him. He has a ton of super safe stuff that has very low ending lag, so actually hitting him with a KO move is very hard. But then again, you can gimp him. Just be extremely patient, and he'll have a hard time actually killing you. His F-smash is powershieldable on reaction if you want to go for that (try actually punishing it though...You have Jab, F-tilt, and D-smash for that basically). His Aura Sphere for the most part should be an annoyance at most. This matchup will last a long time if you do it right.
Fighting Lucario is like G&W, except he's a lot more campy and rarely ever approaches, and you can gimp him. He has a ton of super safe stuff that has very low ending lag, so actually hitting him with a KO move is very hard. But then again, you can gimp him. Just be extremely patient, and he'll have a hard time actually killing you. His F-smash is powershieldable on reaction if you want to go for that (try actually punishing it though...You have Jab, F-tilt, and D-smash for that basically). His Aura Sphere for the most part should be an annoyance at most. This matchup will last a long time if you do it right.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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The only time people powershield Fsmash on reaction is when the Lucario player spams it predictable and/or uses it wrong.
You can cape Lucario's UpB, that is the truth.
I'll comment more later.
You can cape Lucario's UpB, that is the truth.
I'll comment more later.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Just for the record, Lucario will probably either try to recover high to avoid gimping and expend his great offstage options like dair stall and floaty second jump, or a little trick they'll try to do is aim extreme speed straight up if they suspect a cape because that tends to still give them a chance to float (albeit in that crappy freefall mode) by not having to worry about getting caped the other way.
Lucario can and can't outcamp mario. Fireballs get outprioritized by Fully charged AS at about the high 30% iirc, so at that point be ready to do less fireballing because commiting frames to that could hurt you and be ready to zone to leave cape room to counter AS.
Someone mentioned range, which is definitely one of Lucario's features, but there's more to it that makes it different from someone like Marth for instance. Lucario is kind of the furry fiery version of MK, because he gets what's called "transcendent priority", meaning priority that cannot be canceled by another attack. The biggest problem is, that while the aura "bursts" are transcendent, his arms/legs aren't. That being said, this is why you get those weird lolsmash moments at high percents. Another thing that compliments his "safe" game is low endlag and aura's effects on his attacks. As everyone knows, aura increases damage, priority (on the limbs since other attacks need to become stronger to cancel his), and knockback (no, he doesn't get a boost in range, except the hitbox on his AS does increase). What most don't know is that aura also increases shieldstun from Lucario's attacks, making them safer on block the higher in damage he gets.
People are saying that they should be careful about Lucario at about 150%+. The truth is, he gets viable kill power as early as the 70% range. I would say you will definitely want to start getting Lucario to die from actually the 100% range, if you are aggressive you can tack on a lot of damage from punishes pulled off, and you have a solid killset that's decent at punishing bad moves too. The thing that's going for you is definitely that most Lucarios don't know this MU, but even at high levels of play Lucario has to be very careful with his attack pool.
If he dairs, a good one'll usually do it after the uair from dthrow, mario being on the ground means that Lucario only resets his situation. Basically it's a giant guessing game that neither player really benenfits from.
Lucario's gonna wall you, make sure you kill him by baiting fsmash or dair and retaliating with bair or your own fsmash (from the lean back it can punish fsmash most of the time) Lucario's endlag is what really sets him apart from many cast members, although startup is a bit on the slow side. Make sure you capitalize on every misspacing, Lucarios generally get a little lazy with this, and Mario needs every opportunity to tack onto him onstage.
Lucario's really good at keeping safe against lower tiers, so naturally he's going to use fair and it's mixups for taking the offensive if he has to (I don't think he'll have to at most points of the game) or bair/fair and nair walling defensively.
Lucario's zoning is really good fullhopped, make sure you're patient in punishing one that decides to go aggro. A good Lucario will play this MU more defensively though for the most part.
upB oos iirc is another tactic marios will use, and that's decent for misspaced things, but really risky overall.
FLUDD and cape will work if he's being dumb offstage like sapping his jump immediately, but if he dair stalls, fairs and saves his second jump for when he really needs it he can make it pretty confidently, imo Lucario's recovering options are really underrated, merely because his really strong options for clearing are offset by a mediocre upB. Lucario can also do some pretty nasty things to recoveries like Mario's, although I always say that gimping/edgeguarding with anyone besides MK is pretty hard to pull off correctly.
45:55/40:60 Lucario's favor imo, especially with stage pick. Lucario's going to have a holiday with stages like frigate, FD, YI, Castle Siege (lol FWK is going to post on this one obv.), and Brinstar (which I think is great in this MU for lucario), among some others.
Edit: Red's right, lucario fsmash and dair are habitual in nature, but good Lucarios know when to use them to make them much harder to take advantage of. Fsmash can be strutterstepped/slightly charged to make PSing/retaliating tough, and lucario has other options besides dair to take care of aggressive juggling patterns, like fair and b-reversal.
Lucario can and can't outcamp mario. Fireballs get outprioritized by Fully charged AS at about the high 30% iirc, so at that point be ready to do less fireballing because commiting frames to that could hurt you and be ready to zone to leave cape room to counter AS.
Someone mentioned range, which is definitely one of Lucario's features, but there's more to it that makes it different from someone like Marth for instance. Lucario is kind of the furry fiery version of MK, because he gets what's called "transcendent priority", meaning priority that cannot be canceled by another attack. The biggest problem is, that while the aura "bursts" are transcendent, his arms/legs aren't. That being said, this is why you get those weird lolsmash moments at high percents. Another thing that compliments his "safe" game is low endlag and aura's effects on his attacks. As everyone knows, aura increases damage, priority (on the limbs since other attacks need to become stronger to cancel his), and knockback (no, he doesn't get a boost in range, except the hitbox on his AS does increase). What most don't know is that aura also increases shieldstun from Lucario's attacks, making them safer on block the higher in damage he gets.
People are saying that they should be careful about Lucario at about 150%+. The truth is, he gets viable kill power as early as the 70% range. I would say you will definitely want to start getting Lucario to die from actually the 100% range, if you are aggressive you can tack on a lot of damage from punishes pulled off, and you have a solid killset that's decent at punishing bad moves too. The thing that's going for you is definitely that most Lucarios don't know this MU, but even at high levels of play Lucario has to be very careful with his attack pool.
If he dairs, a good one'll usually do it after the uair from dthrow, mario being on the ground means that Lucario only resets his situation. Basically it's a giant guessing game that neither player really benenfits from.
Lucario's gonna wall you, make sure you kill him by baiting fsmash or dair and retaliating with bair or your own fsmash (from the lean back it can punish fsmash most of the time) Lucario's endlag is what really sets him apart from many cast members, although startup is a bit on the slow side. Make sure you capitalize on every misspacing, Lucarios generally get a little lazy with this, and Mario needs every opportunity to tack onto him onstage.
Lucario's really good at keeping safe against lower tiers, so naturally he's going to use fair and it's mixups for taking the offensive if he has to (I don't think he'll have to at most points of the game) or bair/fair and nair walling defensively.
Lucario's zoning is really good fullhopped, make sure you're patient in punishing one that decides to go aggro. A good Lucario will play this MU more defensively though for the most part.
upB oos iirc is another tactic marios will use, and that's decent for misspaced things, but really risky overall.
FLUDD and cape will work if he's being dumb offstage like sapping his jump immediately, but if he dair stalls, fairs and saves his second jump for when he really needs it he can make it pretty confidently, imo Lucario's recovering options are really underrated, merely because his really strong options for clearing are offset by a mediocre upB. Lucario can also do some pretty nasty things to recoveries like Mario's, although I always say that gimping/edgeguarding with anyone besides MK is pretty hard to pull off correctly.
45:55/40:60 Lucario's favor imo, especially with stage pick. Lucario's going to have a holiday with stages like frigate, FD, YI, Castle Siege (lol FWK is going to post on this one obv.), and Brinstar (which I think is great in this MU for lucario), among some others.
Edit: Red's right, lucario fsmash and dair are habitual in nature, but good Lucarios know when to use them to make them much harder to take advantage of. Fsmash can be strutterstepped/slightly charged to make PSing/retaliating tough, and lucario has other options besides dair to take care of aggressive juggling patterns, like fair and b-reversal.
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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If you're just watching for it, it's not hard to powershield at all, since the charge release is pretty bad. Doesn't stop it from being really good, since it's almost safe on powershield. =/
Also I did mention in the other matchup thread that Jab D-smash is unblockable against Lucario.
culexus・wau
Purchased premium only to change name ><
Its Lucario Favor.
dunno if its 55-45 or 60-40 but its definitely our favor but its not worse then that for sure.
We beat you on the ground and Air slightly but Dsmash gets annoying and its dumb when fair and bair trade hits >< don't ever be afraid to trade hits with fair lol.
Your Dsmash sets us in a very compromising position to edgeguard btw.
[mid %, not at really high unless I'm DIing wrong]
We either have to waste our jump or recover from below and cape is gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay so <<
If the Lucario rolls a lot Dsmash is pretty good. Lucario is like the only character in brawl that is allowed to use his roll as a cross-up lol.
Mario has a REALLY Hard time killing Lucario and you kindaaaaaaaaaaa outcamp us but barely [Fireballs are really Easy to Powershield and Fair just swats through them so it doesn't really matter much]
Imo Mario has to be really campy and take every oppurtunity to edgeguard after a dsmash.
Learn the timing for caping us, its like close to Space Animals except we can curve it and we have no hitbox lol.
thats all I can think of for now.
oh wait.
Up-B more.
its Marios best tool VS Lucario other then fireballs.
but not banworthy.
Just ban FD as its really our best stage.
uhhhhhhhhhh how does Mario do on japes, its really good for us.
EDIT: ALMOST FORGOT
Fludd is stupid VS our hitboxes seriously
I once whiffed a Dair and got fludded and the mario had enough time to charge fsmash and hit me
dunno if its 55-45 or 60-40 but its definitely our favor but its not worse then that for sure.
We beat you on the ground and Air slightly but Dsmash gets annoying and its dumb when fair and bair trade hits >< don't ever be afraid to trade hits with fair lol.
Your Dsmash sets us in a very compromising position to edgeguard btw.
[mid %, not at really high unless I'm DIing wrong]
We either have to waste our jump or recover from below and cape is gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay so <<
If the Lucario rolls a lot Dsmash is pretty good. Lucario is like the only character in brawl that is allowed to use his roll as a cross-up lol.
Mario has a REALLY Hard time killing Lucario and you kindaaaaaaaaaaa outcamp us but barely [Fireballs are really Easy to Powershield and Fair just swats through them so it doesn't really matter much]
Imo Mario has to be really campy and take every oppurtunity to edgeguard after a dsmash.
Learn the timing for caping us, its like close to Space Animals except we can curve it and we have no hitbox lol.
thats all I can think of for now.
oh wait.
Up-B more.
its Marios best tool VS Lucario other then fireballs.
Castle Siege is amazing for Lucario <3 [dunno bout mario but I can share stage tricksies if you guys want (;]
but not banworthy.
Just ban FD as its really our best stage.
uhhhhhhhhhh how does Mario do on japes, its really good for us.
EDIT: ALMOST FORGOT
Fludd is stupid VS our hitboxes seriously
I once whiffed a Dair and got fludded and the mario had enough time to charge fsmash and hit me
HeroMystic
Legacy of the Mario
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Hmmmmm...EDIT: ALMOST FORGOT
Fludd is stupid VS our hitboxes seriously
I once whiffed a Dair and got fludded and the mario had enough time to charge fsmash and hit me
If you expect the Dair (which will almost always happen), just bait it, then hit Lucario with a bair or something from the side. If you try to follow under him, you will most likely get dair'd.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Yeah Lucario dair is pretty addictive, especially for bad Lucarios, it's like cocaine, except it comes with twice the amount of kicks (c wut I ded thar?)
Can you guys contact Junebug? He's played Boss a ton and my Mario a few times. I could try to find him on AIM and see what he thinks...but on the off chance I can't reach him....
Edit: I think it can be 55:45 in either direction. I can't agree with 60:40 Lucario adv though, it's not that bad.
Edit: I think it can be 55:45 in either direction. I can't agree with 60:40 Lucario adv though, it's not that bad.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
^I'll try, but he really doesn't like Smashboards lol.
Inferno3044
Smash Master
I'm gonna tell you guys now that Castle Siege is not a good Mario stage iirc. I'll give you FD and as well because it doesn't help Mario that much and Frigate might be a good choice, but the lack of an edge can help us edgeguard. YI and Brinstar on the other hand are very good Mario stages. I wouldn't CP there. What are bad Lucario stages though?
@Phi1ny3 - I'm a bit confused. You said that the aura extensions are transcendent but his actual limbs are not. Can't you technically not clash because the aura will still hit you?
@Phi1ny3 - I'm a bit confused. You said that the aura extensions are transcendent but his actual limbs are not. Can't you technically not clash because the aura will still hit you?
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Yes, and no
If you try hitting the aura, it won't clank and will still hit you.
However, when he does moves like fsmash, his arms stick out, and that can clank, it's a lulzy effect, sometimes the hitbox will still come out after the move clanks, but other times it will just cancel both of the attacks.
The reason why we like Frigate is that it messes with many character's ground oriented camping games, and lucario is able to wallcling with some protection of the platform above him on the first transformation, and doesn't have to aim to land on the stage, which helps him more often than it does others. Essentially Lucario is most often better at recovering on the right side than most of the cast, but against characters like Wario and MK this is negligible.
That and every transformation iirc has enough of a ledge wall where even if the opponent edgehogs Lucario can wallcling on the same ledge, which helps his recovery options.
That and Lucario is very good at controlling the vital parts on the stage.
If you try hitting the aura, it won't clank and will still hit you.
However, when he does moves like fsmash, his arms stick out, and that can clank, it's a lulzy effect, sometimes the hitbox will still come out after the move clanks, but other times it will just cancel both of the attacks.
The reason why we like Frigate is that it messes with many character's ground oriented camping games, and lucario is able to wallcling with some protection of the platform above him on the first transformation, and doesn't have to aim to land on the stage, which helps him more often than it does others. Essentially Lucario is most often better at recovering on the right side than most of the cast, but against characters like Wario and MK this is negligible.
That and every transformation iirc has enough of a ledge wall where even if the opponent edgehogs Lucario can wallcling on the same ledge, which helps his recovery options.
That and Lucario is very good at controlling the vital parts on the stage.
Veggi
Smash Champion
Lack of grabbable edges are pretty bad for Mario because of how dependent he is on them. Frgate's wall is pretty good for wall jumping though.
Big-Omar
Smash Journeyman
What about BF? Would that be a viable CP for Mario?
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Bad as in, Mario will CP a place like Norfair? Or bad as in he hates edges? I'm sure you mean the former from what I've experienced in the MU.
And yes, I think BF is one of Mario's best neutrals v. Lucario, Mario has better platform control with more low lag aerials and nice ability to hold the center (imo the most important part of the stage).
Veggi
Smash Champion
He only needs one, I mean. If there are no grabbable edges it takes down his recovery by a large notch because a lot of the distance he gets from his up b is from grabbing the edge. Mario has a very large ledge sweetspot on his up b.
Kanzaki
Smash Champion
I hate fighting Lucarios :[
Big-Omar
Smash Journeyman
Lol Lucarios are fun to fight.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Good Lucarios are fun to fight
One's born from wifi are the scourge of the Devil (jk <3 them too, but they're still dumb)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLNS9hmh8cg#t=3m07s
Yes, this is an old video lol.
One's born from wifi are the scourge of the Devil (jk <3 them too, but they're still dumb)
This man's right, I want to get the video that shows the ledgesnap length.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLNS9hmh8cg#t=3m07s
Yes, this is an old video lol.