The Mario Rediscussion Thread. Currently Rediscussing: Diddy Kong

[Veggi]

I say 60-40. Grenades, tilts, and weight are stupid. Don't feel like going in depth with this.

 

[Javon89]

Is Delfino Plaza a good stage pick?

 

[Inferno3044]

Is Delfino Plaza a good stage pick?

I highly doubt it. I don't think it's even a good Mario stage. It's one of my least favorite stages imo. I'm gonna put this as 60:40 Snake. It seems that most people say that.

Speaking of Snake, Ally hit ADHD with his taunt twice in a row. Too good!

Anyways, we can move on to another character. I'm not sure who you guys wanna talk about but my vote is on Olimar.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Olimar is ok, Diddy seems like a threat to Mario. I wonder how it's 50/50 cuz I don't see it. Mario vs Diddy looks like its 55/45 Diddy's favor. I mean his naners gives Mario so much pressure, he's very agile and aggressive.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Olimar imo is harder than Diddy, since he kills earlier, and you have to be a lot more patient against him in general. Neither matchup is bad for Mario. I can see both matchups very feasibly being neutral.

Against Diddy Kong, you'll survive to higher percents in general, and he has to be really careful before committing to Banana tosses which can be shut down by your Cape. Caping lasts a long time and reflects his Bananas, and aerial Capes can both do this and give you an option to reset yourself in case he does nothing. Diddy Kong in short really doesn't **** Mario, and has to actually worry about Mario surviving longer since Mario isn't exactly lightweight. Mario's glidetoss isn't amazing, but it's also overlooked as it's quite useful for comboing into KO moves or spacing. Watch Flameleon do the matchup anyhow.

Vs Olimar...I really don't have enough experience in the matchup as Mario, so I personally find it hard just because my approach strategies aren't solid enough. What I do know is that Mario can avoid getting shieldgrabbed very easily by fastfalling aerials and Jabbing. Jab cancel D-smash ***** Olimar, and so do Cape and FLUDD gimps. N-air -> Jab -> D-smash at low percents does 28-30% (depending on whether or not you use Jab2) and is basically guaranteed as long as you can sweetspot the Jab out of N-air (N-air to Jab true combos anyhow).

 

[Inferno3044]

I actually think that Olimar is even. I will explain later if you guys wanna discuss him. Lil G wants to discuss Diddy though. Choose one of them and they're next.

 

[Matador]

I actually think that Olimar is even. I will explain later if you guys wanna discuss him. Lil G wants to discuss Diddy though. Choose one of them and they're next.

AIM me. I hate this matchup and need assistance.

Diddy is pretty easy if you're not playing ADHD.

 

[vato_break]

i have a olimar in my crew and i have to say olimar is not 50/50 not at all. What you want to do is get olimar in the air and juggle and try your best to gimp him. Olimar probably won't allow himself to be juggled since our air game is better he won't go to the air he'll hide in his sheild so you'll either want to grab him or dair him(more recommended).Dair won't always sheild poke so you'll need to put alot of pressure on his sheild so dair>nair works wonders if you happen to land in front of him, doing this alot of the time might mean eacapeing grabs. Avoid getting grabed at low percents this is how olimars will rack up their damage,if you do happened to get grabed try to escape or not land if they grab you they might read and ****.You can camp with FH fireballs effectively ,you can reflect(with backwardcape) his pikman blah blah olimar will outcamp you unless you gain hieght over him.also the lineup of his pikemin can determine if you win or lose aswell. i see this as 55:45 olimar's favor or 60:40 olimar ..olimars ground game is just that good.Get him in the air thats where he's biggest weekness and edgehog his upB,sometimes even if you just stay on the edge and take the hit of his upB he won't come back..but becareful some pikmin can stage spike hard.

 

[Javon89]

Olimar 55:45 or 6:4, how many purples he gets favours on how much he can **** you.

 

[Inferno3044]

should we discuss Olimar?

 

[Matt07]

Yea, let's do Oleemar.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

I don't have any experience w/ the Mario vs Olimar matchup, I'll listen to y'all opinions about the Mario vs Olimar matchup.

 

[Inferno3044]

Well anyways, Olimar is can be extremely campy. They have an annoying pikmin toss and a stupidly good grab range with some of the pikmin. The purple pikmin can still at low percents, but its range is pretty bad. Yellow pikmin have a bigger hit box than all the others and have an electric property, which can stun you for a bit longer. The red ones are good for aerials and have fire property. Blue pikmin last longer than the others and survive in water. White pikmin are weak as hell, but you don't want these guys latching on to you with throw, it's a lot of damage. Also, white's grab range and pummel damage is really good. His edgeguarding is poor though and he can't do much off stage. Just a random thing about him, the forms of the pikmin (leaf, bud, flower) mean absolutely nothing. It's just a little thing the programmers put in.

Mario has quick aerials to combo Olimar. It's easy to combo Olimar once youre in. He doesn't really have a combo breaker. The best he can do is whistle which won't hurt you, but give him super armor. His pikmin and be reflected with a reverse cape or you can hit them off with dair. The white ones will die from one hit of just about anything. Keep note of what pikmin is up next. It will help you a lot in two ways. It will help you see what he will do to an extent and what to watch out for. Olimar is easy to gimp. Just edgeguard him and block the ledge. Olimar's recovery won't work if something is in the way between him and the ledge. When edgeguarding, bait the air dodge or whistle and punish. Olimar is light weight so he will die early even if you don't gimp him. I think we kill him with our Usmash not to much later than he does with a fresh purple Usmash. We can kill him early with our Fsmash, about 100% kinda near the edge. We have a very good off stage game and it should be used. Jab > Dsmash is amazing because he can't do anything as long as he is hit by the jab. If you hit his shield, remember to land behind him because it's an easy grab for him if you don't. Take the offense in this MU and once you combo him, keep going. Don't give him any breath space.

I know a bit because my brother uses Olimar. I think it's pretty even.

 

[Zori]

fireballs is a legit approach and you guys can pressure our shield very well but other then that its out favor

 

[Inferno3044]

fireballs is a legit approach and you guys can pressure our shield very well but other then that its out favor

It's definitely not your favor for everything except that have have shield pressure and that fireballs are a good projectile. We have quite a bit going for us. *points to previous post i wrote* The thing with Olimar is that there is some luck in him. Whatever pikmin you pluck can make or break him per se. It's makes a big difference if you have 1 purple or if you have 3.

 

[hippiedude92]

6/4 olimar imo

oli has no grab armor so approaching full hop / sh fireballs is sometimes good so if they grab and get hit by fireball u'll have enough time to followup an attack

dair on his shield is fun, cape stalling/nair are your friends in this matchup

**** him if hes on the ledge and offstage and should be a stock down for him

if mario is on the ledge, hes options are greatly reduced since olimar's ledge traps are super gay (ex look at fsmash)

 

[Inferno3044]

6/4 Olimar? I've never seen Olimar as a threat. Sure he's annoying if you don't know Oli well, but once I got to know his playstyle it's become much easier. I highly disagree with that ratio.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Olimar is just a hard matchup to learn...Mario has the options to win it though.

He's like Yoshi but better in that he's tedious to approach, but can do little to directly threaten you if you play a careful stage control game. Olimar unlike Yoshi is quite good at scoring kills and racking damage fast, so he's a much more significant threat. Oh and his grab and shield is better in general, although you can still pressure him a lot.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

55/45 Olimar. (I believe Hilt agrees with this ratio, from when we last talked about it.)

I've played Hilt quite a bit, what you want to do is get inside and basically get him into the air and off the stage, and what Olimar wants to do is... whatever he usually does. (Except he has to work a little harder to not get gimped because the whistle doesn't work on the cape!)

Camping doesn't work at all here, don't try it.

 

[BoTastic!]

why does it still say snake if we're discussing Olimar? You guys are lazy

 

[hippiedude92]

6/4 Olimar? I've never seen Olimar as a threat. Sure he's annoying if you don't know Oli well, but once I got to know his playstyle it's become much easier. I highly disagree with that ratio.

its just a ratio as if 5 points makes the end of the world difference

we already know it's in most likely in olimar's favor anyways

unless its changed due to a stage or w/e

 

[Inferno3044]

why does it still say snake if we're discussing Olimar? You guys are lazy

I just noticed that I forgot to do it. It's changed now

its just a ratio as if 5 points makes the end of the world difference

we already know it's in most likely in olimar's favor anyways

unless its changed due to a stage or w/e

55:45 means a slight advantage, definitely winnable by both sides

60:40 means one character has a significant advantage and the person with the disadvantage has to really outplay the other person to win.

That's how I see each of those ratios. I just don't see Olimar with a significant advantage over Mario. I guess there might be a slight advantage, but nothing that bad. It's not like I'm saying that Mario beats Olimar. That just isn't true. I'm giving an honest opinion that I think it's even or 55:45 Olimar.

 

[vato_break]

post vids please i want to see this, i play a olimar regularly and i don't usually win.

 

[Matt07]

6/4 Oleemar.

Pivot Grabs, Side-B galor's make this such an awesome match-up!

 

[Inferno3044]

What if we camped him? Vato and I were discussing this and we think it's possible it outcamp him. His side-b is definitely beatable and we can reverse cape to reflect the pikmin back at him. When he's low on pikmin or has some on him, take advantage of it. If he has some on him, he will probably whistle them off which makes sense. I'm pretty sure that you can grab olimar while he is getting his pikmin off of him or attempting to pluck more pikmin. Fireballs also make a solid approach against him and will stop a pikmin unless it's a red one.

Btw, I learned that I lied. Jab > Dsmash is not guarenteed, but it still is very effective against Olimar. It's a good way to send him off stage and edgeguard him.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Don't ... even... attempt it. (The outcamping, that is) A smart Olimar is smarter than that.

 

[Javon89]

What if we camped him? Vato and I were discussing this and we think it's possible it outcamp him. His side-b is definitely beatable and we can reverse cape to reflect the pikmin back at him. When he's low on pikmin or has some on him, take advantage of it. If he has some on him, he will probably whistle them off which makes sense. I'm pretty sure that you can grab olimar while he is getting his pikmin off of him or attempting to pluck more pikmin. Fireballs also make a solid approach against him and will stop a pikmin unless it's a red one.

Btw, I learned that I lied. Jab > Dsmash is not guarenteed, but it still is very effective against Olimar. It's a good way to send him off stage and edgeguard him.

Using dthrow, utilt and Usmash to get Olimar in the air are better options our aerial game is better than his (I think).

 

[BSP]

Using dthrow, utilt and Usmash to get Olimar in the air are better options our aerial game is better than his (I think).

Yes, mario's air game is better, and gives him more options. At least when mario is under him.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Ugh, outcamping sux on Olimar, Olimar players is not that dumb when u try to outcamp dem.

 

[hippiedude92]

outcamping olimar is just plain outright dumbbb

it's ****ing olimar lol, his aggro camping is beast

 

[A2ZOMG]

Btw, I learned that I lied. Jab > Dsmash is not guarenteed, but it still is very effective against Olimar. It's a good way to send him off stage and edgeguard him.

Jab D-smash IS guaranteed as a matter of a fact. I've tested this EXTENSIVELY.

Of course, I'm assuming that you know how to sweetspot Mario's Jab, but that isn't unreasonably hard to do. Jab D-smash is completely legit on Olimar, and you have a LOT of leeway to land the D-smash.

 

[BSP]

Jab D-smash IS guaranteed as a matter of a fact. I've tested this EXTENSIVELY.

Of course, I'm assuming that you know how to sweetspot Mario's Jab, but that isn't unreasonably hard to do. Jab D-smash is completely legit on Olimar, and you have a LOT of leeway to land the D-smash.

The sweetspot is mario's fist right? It makes people bounce up like...luigi's whole arm...not fair >_>.

60 : 40 olimar sounds kind of stretched. Like inferno said, I don't see the significant advantage oli has over mario. Sure, he has the grond, but mario has the air and offstage.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, it's kinda gay. Luigi's sweetspot is dominant over his sourspot, meaning that as long as his fist overlaps a hurtbox, he gets a sweetspot.

Mario's sourspot is dominant, which is really annoying yeah, but honestly it's not hard to figure out.

N-air -> Jab -> D-smash does 28% and if you land the N-air, the entire thing is unblockable.

 

[Inferno3044]

Yeah, it's kinda gay. Luigi's sweetspot is dominant over his sourspot, meaning that as long as his fist overlaps a hurtbox, he gets a sweetspot.

Mario's sourspot is dominant, which is really annoying yeah, but honestly it's not hard to figure out.

N-air -> Jab -> D-smash does 28% and if you land the N-air, the entire thing is unblockable.

I'm assuming the nair should not be sweet spotted for the combo because there's less knockback. Btw guarenteed 28% is amazing. That's definitely over 25% of damage needed to kill with Fsmash.

About jab > Dsmash, I either didn't sweetspot it or I wasn't quick enough. I'm working on speeding it up.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm assuming the nair should not be sweet spotted for the combo because there's less knockback. Btw guarenteed 28% is amazing. That's definitely over 25% of damage needed to kill with Fsmash.

About jab > Dsmash, I either didn't sweetspot it or I wasn't quick enough. I'm working on speeding it up.

Do the math...N-air has to be sweetspotted. 10 + 3 + 15 = 28.

It's a low percent combo, I think it should work at like 20% maybe.

You can do even more damage with B-air, or by landing Jab2 in addition to Jab1. B-air -> Jab is a little harder to space properly imo, but if you can land B-air -> Jab1+2 -> D-smash, that will do 32%.

 

[bobson]

Nair will go through every single one of his Pikmin attacks except up-B and the first part of fsmash, even with purples. Have fun with that.

 

[HeroMystic]

U-air also breaks through N-air, but I broke through every one of Olimar's attacks F-Smash included.

 

[Matador]

If Oli abuses grab...spacing Fsmash is pretty impossible. Save Usmash for kills if you can.

Gimp where you can, use fireball -> Nair to approach. DO NOT BE PREDICTABLE. He can punish everything you do with a simple pivot grab.

 

[hippiedude92]

fireball nair is def your best approach, fireball to zone the ground, while nair's hitbox in the air...

just don't get grabbed or end up in the edge (****ing hate fsmash camping -.-)

 

[Veggi]

Bair him in the face and jump away. Don't bair him in the chest.