The Mario Rediscussion Thread. Currently Rediscussing: Diddy Kong

[Inferno3044]

If Oli abuses grab...spacing Fsmash is pretty impossible. Save Usmash for kills if you can.

I wouldn't use Fsmash too much in this MU unless you see them attempt a move like Usmash and use it to punish. Dsmash is helpful to get them away/offstage and Usmash is good for kills. Also when Olimar grabs, he doesn't have grab armor. The pikmin does. Take advantage of this by doing cape jump to avoid the grab and punish with an easy aerial.

Btw what I meant about camping wasn't really hardcore camping. Just wait till you see an opening and take the aggressive. Taking the offensive and gaining momentum will help you a lot.

 

[hippiedude92]

thats called aggro camping

lol

 

[Inferno3044]

thats called aggro camping

lol

Wasn't sure. After I took my SAT's, I forgot like all of my vocabulary.

 

[JUDGE]

so guys what are your ratiosß^^

 

[Matador]

On paper, this actually DOES seem like a 50:50...Mario has some pretty viable options here that I didn't know about.

I just have yet to see it in practice, nor can I test it myself. I rarely see Logic (An Olimar in my region) since I don't go to tourneys as often as I want to...so I don't even really know the matchup very well.

Anyone have vids?

 

[vato_break]

heres a pools match vs a crew member this is one of the few times i win btw : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RA-GkBH2fc


Olimar is very had, i think i have him figured out..i think we should avoid getting grabed at low percents because you can get from 0-50% in the matter of 3-4 moves so i think we should camp and knowing olimar he will camp back,yes he can camp harder than us but, we can cape back EVERY pikmin he throws at us.Just something to keep in mind.so for our "camping" we should be useing reverse cape more than fireballs,his pikmin stop those.

 

[Fire!]

I have an Olimar in my region so I'll see if I can play him a couple of rounds today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExcDIH2vZ_Y

 

[vato_break]

i also play richbrown quite alot ...i'm telling you guys this is not even, mario is sooo limited in this matchup where he has a few options that can easily get punished/predicted

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

i also play richbrown quite alot ...i'm telling you guys this is not even, mario is sooo limited in this matchup where he has a few options that can easily get punished/predicted

I know RichBrown is too freakin' gud w/ Olimar, some MKs couldn't handle him but the pro MKs can. lol

 

[Inferno3044]

i also play richbrown quite alot ...i'm telling you guys this is not even, mario is sooo limited in this matchup where he has a few options that can easily get punished/predicted

No offense, but it might just be that he's a better player than you. I'm not saying you're bad, but he might be significantly better than you. Trust me on this. Pierce can beat me with Ganon and Link because he's a much better player than me. Maybe richbrown is you're skill level, but according to other posts, his Olimar is really freaking good.

 

[hippiedude92]

lol that olimar vato played didnt do enough pivot grabs and didnt do the 0-30%? grab strings vato was just playing it correctly really but still at least olimars adv imo just imo

 

[Kanzaki]

Olimar > Mario. Enough said.


However, Luigi > Olimar :D

 

[Inferno3044]

So what do you guys say? Still 55:45 Oli?

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I think Hilt is gonna come in here and post his opinions, he also thinks its 55:45 from what he's said during our conversations.

 

[Inferno3044]

I wish I knew an Olimar around my level. The only Olimar other than my brother I've met was Blackwaltz and that guy is way above me.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Richbrown is one of the best players in SoCal. He takes on guys like LeePuff and Fiction very competently.

He's kicked my *** before in tournament too lol. I swear one day I'll get him back with my G&W though.

 

[Inferno3044]

I think the ratio should be unchanged. 55:45 Olimar.

 

[Inferno3044]

Do you guys wanna call it 55:45 Oli and move on to a different person? I think Diddy or G&W were characters people wanted to rediscuss.

 

[vato_break]

55:45 olimar, lets discuss GaW

 

[Matt07]

60:40 Olimar.

Let's move on to...Game and Watch, I think this is a pretty heavily discussed ratio between a lot of us.

 

[Inferno3044]

Is there a semi-easy way of getting through his fsmash edgeguard? This'll affect my opinion a bit.

EDIT: I'll keep it unchanged. G&W starts now.

 

[A2ZOMG]

G&W, I think it's 65/35 G&W.

His D-tilt is mad gay to work around, he's almost impossible to F-smash, and he can kill you at 40% with the Bucket if you fireball camp badly. His Smashes are all safe moves that can kill you at like 90%. Don't get predictable with B-airs because he can punish SH B-airs with Up-smash.

His D-air and F-air also **** you offstage. imo one of Mario's hardest matchups.

U-air juggles work well as long as he doesn't have space to D-air, Jab Jab D-smash and F-tilt out of shield are lifesavers in close range, and save Up-smash til 110% for kills.

 

[Big-Omar]

I agree. It does seem 65:35 GaW. He has too much priority in Nair and Bair and there's nothing we can do about that >.>

Camping vs GaW is actually pretty smart but risky. If you can get him to bucket a fire ball around 110%, you can easily punish him for the kill cus of the lag. Also, I find it funny how if you fill his bucket and you start camping like crazy, doesnt seem like GaW can do anything about fire balls and cant get through unless he uses Fireman and then Dair from above (unless im playing bad GaWs lol)

 

[BSP]

I would say 65 : 35 G and W as well. He easily outprioritizes your attacks, outranges you, has tons of ko power (you're in danger at about 90%), and you have to work really hard just to get close to him. He can bucket fireballs for a great ko move, but if you use them smartly, you might be able to bait a bucket and get a move in. Mario should save usmash in this matchup since it'll kill gandw at 110% or so. FIHL can help a little, but don't rely on it too much.

 

[Inferno3044]

Also, I find it funny how if you fill his bucket and you start camping like crazy, doesnt seem like GaW can do anything about fire balls and cant get through unless he uses Fireman and then Dair from above (unless im playing bad GaWs lol)

Fireballs are easily powershielded. Only a really bad player would be unable to get around. Also, dair isn't the safest of moves because we can dodge and punish. If I predict one or see it coming, I'll dodge and punish (normally with stutter stepped Fsmash if they are within kill percents).

I'm gonna straight up honest now. I have never played a G&W main offline. There is no G&W main in I've played Pierce as G&W and wifi G&W. It's like what Matador said about Olimar. Theoretically, you can say that MU is even but in real gameplay it's not like that. G&W and MK have the same ratios. MK is definitely harder than G&W and I say this from experience. Also, G&W isn't as difficult as theory would put it. OK so he outranges us by a significant amount. So does D3, MK, Marth, DK, Well over half the cast outranges Mario. The theory of "well we can space better than them because we have more range and because of that we win because we can just keep them out" isn't true. If this was true, Squirtle would be pretty bad because his range is crap. Squirtle would be S or A tier if he wasn't attached to Ivysaur and Charizard. Basically what I'm saying is that the theory makes it sound harder for Mario then it actually is. It's not like I have a ton of trouble racking damage on him. It's that his low lag moves aren't easy to get around.

 

[Calebyte]

In my very minimal experience, I've played a few G&W mains. I'm a rookie and could be totally wrong, but I'd say the the ratio is 60:40, not 65:35. To win this MU, you've got to bait him.

One thing I do is bait the bucket with a fireball. He's vulnerable for a good second or so with his bucket out. I usually just grab>d-throw>u-air. Usually works, but it's not smart tot use that often. Gets predictable.

I also try to bait his d-air, shield, and punish with d-smash.

Not Mario's toughest MU, IMO. But still pretty hard.

 

[Big-Omar]

Calebyte, you just said this match up should be 60:40, yet you say "Not Mario's toughest MU, IMO. But still pretty hard." You're confusing me man.

 

[Inferno3044]

Calebyte, you just said this match up should be 60:40, yet you say "Not Mario's toughest MU, IMO. But still pretty hard." You're confusing me man.

He's saying it's hard, but not his worst MU.

 

[Big-Omar]

Sorry, im mexican. YO NO HABLA ENGLES.

But yea GaW is hard.

 

[A2ZOMG]

In my very minimal experience, I've played a few G&W mains. I'm a rookie and could be totally wrong, but I'd say the the ratio is 60:40, not 65:35. To win this MU, you've got to bait him.

This matchup is exactly the same as Mario vs Melee Marth. You have to run away the entire time and call spacing mistakes.

One thing I do is bait the bucket with a fireball. He's vulnerable for a good second or so with his bucket out. I usually just grab>d-throw>u-air. Usually works, but it's not smart tot use that often. Gets predictable.

Never do this unless he's at a KO percent. Please, he kills you at 40% if he has a full Bucket. You can't do that much damage to him from a throw unless he screws up.

I only fireball when he's at KO percents, or if I KNOW he's going to attack and I can aim it at his head.

The real trouble of this matchup is that his D-tilt is gay, it's nearly impossible to land F-smash on him, and he edgeguards you extremely well.

 

[vato_break]

i just upsmash him and use fsmash to rack damage,gaw is pretty gay im pretty defensive in this matchup now =/

 

[JUDGE]

In my very minimal experience, I've played a few G&W mains. I'm a rookie and could be totally wrong, but I'd say the the ratio is 60:40, not 65:35. To win this MU, you've got to bait him.

One thing I do is bait the bucket with a fireball. He's vulnerable for a good second or so with his bucket out. I usually just grab>d-throw>u-air. Usually works, but it's not smart tot use that often. Gets predictable.

I also try to bait his d-air, shield, and punish with d-smash.

Not Mario's toughest MU, IMO. But still pretty hard.

oh holy cow you should NEVER do that
don't let him fill his bucket, its EXTREMLY strong!!
and dthrow=>upair doesn't work against even an amateur player
just airdodge and that's that
in this MU you should abuse fireballs but don't get predictable with that (usally just for approaches)
bair,dtilt,fair offstage,dthrow=> tech chasing is broken though

i played f!re the best mgw in germany and our matches were pretty even
this MU is a 60:40 arguable 65:35

 

[Calebyte]

Alrighty, so bucket baiting is out. It makes sense. Thanks for the input guys.

 

[Inferno3044]

I want some input from G&W mains. Maybe there's something we don't know.

 

[Matador]

Boss and I both fill the bucket 2/3rds...free hit both times.

I fill it all the way. No bucket braking, and they become maaaaad predictable more often than not. They're constantly thinking "oilpanic free stock! Oil panic, free stock!", so I use that by making false approaches and forcing them to move how I want to.

Also, free reign on fireballs once it's full. Of course, I don't recommend this unless you're ridiculously amazing, or irreversibly insane.

Edit @ Inferno: G&W is entirely too simple for us to not know something about the match-up at this point..."I've got priority, here have some!" is their gameplan. That's why Marth and MK **** his ****.

 

[Big-Omar]

Boss and I both fill the bucket 2/3rds...free hit both times.

I fill it all the way. No bucket braking, and they become maaaaad predictable more often than not. They're constantly thinking "oilpanic free stock! Oil panic, free stock!", so I use that by making false approaches and forcing them to move how I want to.

Also, free reign on fireballs once it's full. Of course, I don't recommend this unless you're ridiculously amazing, or irreversibly insane.

Edit @ Inferno: G&W is entirely too simple for us to not know something about the match-up at this point..."I've got priority, here have some!" is their gameplan. That's why Marth and MK **** his ****.

Lol, by what you said, I MUST be insane as ****. XD

 

[Inferno3044]

Lol, by what you said, I MUST be insane as ****. XD

You are XD.

 

[Big-Omar]

Yes I am Inferno. I be camping vs GaWs on purpose cus I love fire balls. I beat a GaW before by camping and he johned. He said this: "Luigi-Dude_LZS: Spam enough Fireballs buddy? There had to be about 150 right?"

I lol'd so hard.

 

[Matt07]

Alright, I guess I'll bring up general issues on the match-up (my experiences ), and get opinions on how you handle them.

GnW has always given me trouble on WiFi. I haven't played a Game and Watch offline yet.

But ya, I'm agreeing with A2 on this match-up. You really have to watch his spacing mistakes, which...is pretty hard for a Game and Watch to do. Just the effort you have to put in to punish his mistakes, and bait him with K.O moves is ridiculous!

Offstage, it's hell. He can just f-air you, and your toast if you recover from too low. Your only options are to airdodge, or Cape it on reaction, and both of those can still put you in a bad spot because his f-air will still sourspot you. Always, always keep your second jump, recover high. If he sour spots dsmash us, well for one it sends in a horrible trajectory, forcing us to use our double jump. And unless the Game and Watch makes a really bad mistake we'll make it on.

Second spacing issues...Okay umm all he has to do is b-air, and we're screwed. Unless if we're really close inside of him then our aerials outspeed his, but however he can just always up B, and reset the situation. And keep on using b-air to keep us out, that's also the reason why we can't follow up with anything, or use any strings on him. It's really painful to wrack up damage in this match-up. You'll most likely trade hits with him, but he'll take the least amount of damage.

And here comes the KO'ing part. Well...Game and Watch has plenty of options to K.O us. Fsmash our RCO lag, Up Smash: This move goes through everything we have, is the biggest hitbox I've ever seen in my entire life (Yea...bigger then Snake's u-tilt get @ me!) and it's easy as pie to land. Oh and then there's d-smash. Oh where would I be without it? Well firstly this goes through all of our aerials ROFL! Sends us in a bad trajectory as stated above if sourspotted and kills us at like...90%...very quick, lagless, can spam multiple times. When in doubt GnW, just dsmash us. For us? Well...we could dsmash too but it's fairly easy for him to bucket break, and you will rarely rarely land an fsmash unless he makes a big bobo and whiffs an aerial.

You guys may have already covered some of these points, but I'm just explaining my opinion on why I think Game and Watch is 65:35 or worse for us.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Boss and I both fill the bucket 2/3rds...free hit both times.

I fill it all the way. No bucket braking, and they become maaaaad predictable more often than not. They're constantly thinking "oilpanic free stock! Oil panic, free stock!", so I use that by making false approaches and forcing them to move how I want to.

You don't want to play my G&W. I don't fall for that mentality. ^_^

What I do is I run away and Bucket in places where you will have an extremely difficult time at best punishing this. Never fireball if I can just run offstage. That is the dumbest thing you can do.

Also, free reign on fireballs once it's full. Of course, I don't recommend this unless you're ridiculously amazing, or irreversibly insane.

True statement. Never whiff anything in front of him and don't let him observe a dodge. Basically impossible to do if he's really good.

Edit @ Inferno: G&W is entirely too simple for us to not know something about the match-up at this point..."I've got priority, here have some!" is their gameplan. That's why Marth and MK **** his ****.

My gameplan is different. I zone your *** off by rushing your down with F-airs and D-tilt and going for the gimp, and I never spam the same move twice in a row, and I punish you whenever you try to F-smash.

Metaknight still is a *****, but Marth really doesn't **** G&W tbh.