The Mario Rediscussion Thread. Currently Rediscussing: Diddy Kong

[HeroMystic]

This probably isn't accurate, but just me throwing out fireballs in short hops and full hops were enough to keep damage equal with MK when I dealt with D-air Campers.
I have -never- fought a patient MK, so I can't give any advice for that.

I personally do my best on Final Destination, but I constantly hear Yoshi's Island is MK's worst stage. Overall, you'll want to CP with FD, Yoshi's, and Smashville. Counterpick Stage-wise, your best bets are Norfair (lots of space) and Halberd (Star KOs). If it's possible, Pirate Ship is a great CP stage too as gimping is impossible for the most part.

Avoid Lylat Cruise and Pokemon Stadium. LC gives Metaknight a boost in his edgeguard abilities and PS's alternate stages really screw up your camping and spacing. Avoid Frigate like the devil, and I personally never tried Rainbow Cruise, so I can't say for sure on that stage. I can see benefits for both though.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Avoid Rainbow Cruise and Delfino Plaza. Final Destination is the best choice and other neutrals as well.

 

[Inferno3044]

Don't get gimped and camp him a lot. The matchup is pretty simple and obviously in Metaknight's favor. I like F-smash baiting him a lot since Mario's F-smash happens to be able to outrange all of MK's ground moves and usually won't get punished by a kill move. It's pretty much essential to save U-smash for the kill.

Don't get gimped is SOOOOOO much easier said than done. It's so stupidly simple for him. FLUDD can help but won't always work because it won't always be charged. If you don't have FLUDD, save your 2nd jump for as long as you can. Once you use it, all he needs to do is hit you with dair and its goodbye stock.

Fsmash outranging everything MK has is a lie. The third slash of his Ftilt has much stupidly good range. His Fsmash also outranges ours and is safe on block might I add. Saving Usmash is a good idea. I do that a lot vs. MK.

If MK tries to edgeguard you just supersoak him. Recovering from a low shot is another story.

Only possibly safe thing to do.

I space Bair alot on MK. And if I grab him, the only throw I use is My Bthrow cus Dthrow gets me tempted to starting combos. Plus, Bthrow can Kill mk at around 140 probably if you are near the edge.

MK should definitely have something to outrange bair. It is a very good idea though. I'd fireball and shield camp a lot.

Ha...thanks for the analysis. I guess I can agree to 35:65, though I still think 40:60 is more reasonable (save 35:65 for GW). If you factor in mind games (MK is fairly predictable) and typical experience (again, most MK players don't know Mario), the match up becomes much more even.

Rainbow Cruise, though...BAN THAT STAGE.

I gotta tell you this right now. G&W is not a 35:65 disadvantage. Over time, we have revealed weaknesses and have made him beatable. Plus we discussed it and a majority said 40:60 G&W. He is probably either the 3rd or 4th hardest MU for us though. Top 5 hardest MUs for Mario in order (imo)

1. MK
2. Marth
3. D3
4. G&W
5. Snake/ICs

I've never played a legit ICs so I don't know which is harder for Mario. Also D3 and Marth can be interchangeable. I used to think Marth wasn't so bad but that's only because I play Pierce normally on a weekly basis so I have a lot of experience. Only time I played the MU stupidly was against this guy named RizMF at a smashfest where I was being stupidly aggressive. If I camped him like I should have I probable would've won.

Back to MK. MK can shut down most if not all of Mario's options with something. MK has a solution for almost everything Mario has if not everything. He can tornado through fireballs easily unless you bullseye him. It's hard to make a good offensive move on him as well. On the other hand, it's a winnable MU but very hard. You gotta camp him with fireballs. They're so good against MK. They keep it from having it a 30:70. You gotta play campy and get in when you can. Do not go offstage on him. It's just not smart because you probably won't gimp him unless you're lucky by caping a shuttle loop or they recover with an unsafe drill rush. I'd keep it at 35:65l

 

[A2ZOMG]

Don't get gimped is SOOOOOO much easier said than done. It's so stupidly simple for him. FLUDD can help but won't always work because it won't always be charged. If you don't have FLUDD, save your 2nd jump for as long as you can. Once you use it, all he needs to do is hit you with dair and its goodbye stock.

You shouldn't get gimped in general if you DI well. That's basically the main challenge of recovering with Mario. He will usually make it back as long as you DI hits correctly and don't fall for Shuttle Loop gimp shenanigans, and saving Mario's midair jump is just the routine.

I mean yeah, he can gimp you hard, but that's usually only if your DI is quite sloppy.

Fsmash outranging everything MK has is a lie. The third slash of his Ftilt has much stupidly good range. His Fsmash also outranges ours and is safe on block might I add. Saving Usmash is a good idea. I do that a lot vs. MK.

F-smash leanback allows you to outdistance all of his ground moves, and reverse F-smashes of course have more range. He isn't G&W where his attacks last forever and scrape you before your attack comes out. If you know the spacing, charging F-smash while he F-smashes is an epic punish option.

Also, the ICs are not that bad of a matchup technically. Lucario or ZSS imo are slightly worse matchups that leave Mario with fewer options.

 

[manofgames4555]

Honestly, I have beaten some pretty good metaknight players. The surprising thing is I do fight them off stage. Mario can bait the heck out of Metaknight only in the scenario of metaknight being off stage and you on stage with two jumps. Fire ball and threaten with cape and airiels. Anticipate a move past you and chase correctly with a fireball to grab/smash or D-air. I really don't do too bad but, when I lose it's 1 stock with about 30% damage on meta. When I win it's the same for Mario. Sometimes two stock. Mario is too incredible in the air. Sheild camp with fireball mix up. neutral jump to cape to create a false opening under you and down air him and cape his ariels or just jump out of the way. Metaknight is definelty no more than 60/40 with excellent spacing. Make sure you use your "A" combo (sometimes you can "A" combo to fireball it's hilarious)

PS. Walnut (A Mario main in a metaknight world)

 

[Matador]

I haven't seen any character actually deal with the Fludd anti-edgeguard effectively. If they know it's coming, they can space accordingly to reach the ledge before you do after Fludd ends, but as far as protection from gimping, it's invaluable.

Even vs D3, it causes FIHL on his Bair when he goes out to gimp. I suggest at least trying it out vs the next MK you fight if you haven't already.

Another thing Walnut mentioned that I nearly forgot about...jab is your best friend vs MK. Same with G&W. It's what allows you to keep up with and outdo MK in CQC.

 

[Big-Omar]

I make Mario vs MK match up seem 50:50........























On Wi-Fi ;D

 

[Veggi]

Mindgaming F-Smash is pretty much the only way you're gonna land it. I tend to camp Metaknight into F-Smashes, which seems to work well for me.

How would you camp him into fsmashes? I don't get it.

For the most part yes, Mario should be getting in quick hits and then creating distance between himself and Metaknight. I don't bother with Cape in this matchup for the most part. It's start-up is too long for it to be useful unless you wanna cape the Tornado, which I never tried.

Cape when used for stalling purposes and baiting works the same way as in other matchups, just saying. When MK approaches the edge, it's worth caping him just to disorient him and fool around with the amount of jumps he has. Also remember that as long as it's possible to make him run out of jumps, it's possible to cape all of his recoveries bar gliding (if he glide attacks our cape, which if he's too far offstage he can't do, but it's rather trivial), which we can at least attack his blind spot with attacks that reset edgeguarding such as uair. I don't have much of a problem gimping good MK players. That's actually a lot of my hope for winning matches against them.

You can legitmately counter tornados when it's grounded by just shooting a fireball. Priority seems to be different when it goes from grounded to aerial. When the Tornado goes into the air you can't do much about it. D-air only breaks through Tornado on the -last- hit, which demands timing and just the right spacing. Though, IIRC I also believe that Mario if below the Tornado can U-Smash to clank with it, and you can also Pivot grab Metaknight out of the Tornado though again you need the correct spacing.
And of course, you can use Up-B OOS.

A ground tornado can be beaten by pretty much everything and the priority of an aerial tornado is much higher. Any grounded attack that does 10% or higher will beat the tornado. IMO, Mario's best option on the ground is to up smash MK's tornado from below, this will beat it. MK's aerial tornado does not clank. In the air, a well aimed fireball can break it and cause the MK to accidently Drill Rush if he's not ready for it. Nairing the top of it is another good aerial option. Mario can also footstool the tornado repeatedly if he has no other options. Fair'ing the tornado is epic and will win, but not suggested.

I want to try ducking under the tornado with Mario later. : P

Mario is personally at the mercy of Metaknight offstage as the only thing he can do against reverse shuttle loops is air dodge. D-air also causes gimps if you screw up on DI and are forced to recover low. It is very important to save your double jump and have FLUDD ready as an Anti-edgeguard. Fireballs help too.

Mario can also nair because Shuttle Loop isn't disjointed.

MK can Powershield F-Smash if D-Smash is blocked.

I'm not talking about OOS. I mean if Mario is actually out of range of MK's down smash or any other move for that matter.

so what do you do against a dair camping MK? and a patient MK (which most pros should be doing and you'll be losing lol),

If he's dair camping above you, use one of the appropriate up b types. (reverse, vertical, normal, forward)

To actually nail him out of it, you have to actually watch and up b him right when his dair ends. It only does like 4%, but it's annoying and as long as the MK gets consistently punished for it, there isn't much of a reason to continue dair camping.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

I make Mario vs MK match up seem 50:50........























On Wi-Fi ;D

lol wut, MK ***** Mario offline and online, u was just jokin' about that, Big-O? lul

 

[Javon89]

Good spacing is a good element to facing MK cause of hard hitting Nairs. I guess you could approach with Usmash or a running shield to possibly get a grab.

I don't have much MU experience Mario vs. MK I just ditto them, so correct me if I'm horribly wrong.

EDIT:

1. MK
2. D3
3. Marth
4. G&W
5. Snake/ICs

Fixed.

Oh, and one more thing don't try to edgeguard him often because he has lots or priorty on the ledge, and Dair ***** Mario's recovery.

 

[Big-Omar]

Yes and No? Lol. I have had too much Wi-Fi Metaknight experience to be honest.

 

[Matador]

Edgeguarding is fine if you just do it safely. Fireballs, Fludd and ledgetricks. If you go after him, do it at your own risk.

 

[Big-Omar]

I find the Fire Ball to Fair Spike combo to be an effective edgegaurd if you can aim the fire ball right.


But thats just stupid me.

 

[mars16]

I find the match to be easy For mario

I don't know what hius weaknesses are but I bet alot of MK'S easily

Maybe because there hepless after using a specail in the air or when recovering

 

[vato_break]

come to socal mars, you will think otherwise.

 

[Calebyte]

What's the best way to deal with MK's tornado? I've played a few MK's that do nothing but spam tornado, and really wrecks me. I've heard fireball and dair can counter it. Any other techniques or strategies?

 

[hippiedude92]

according to A2z on aim : upb fludd upsmash cape fsmash (nair+fireball off the top of nado) but like, you need to like quadruple read, since good mks will mix up the nado, like how far it is, if its touching your shield, when it's going to come out ahead of time, where will they land their nado, factoring riskvsreward to punish it , and other stuff like that.

oh iirc, i think west coast (specifically norcal/socal maybe?) have the most mks/snakes roaming, while idk about midwest, but ec is def diverse and it isn't too crazy MK oriented (at least not anymore, unlike 08 lol).

how can fludd apply to this matchup???? treat it like gaw?

 

[vato_break]

Sheild and point up and punish. If he lands away from you theres nothing you can do except maybe fireball. One of the best things you can do imo is fludd it since you can punish mk the hardest since the nado is pushed high. If they recover with nado cape it on the upper part of it .UPsmash will also go through the bottem.Dair isn't a very vaible but, i guess it should be taken into consideration. Also you can airdodge,Footstool,or SDI out if you are caught.Once in you can sometimes break out by dair the top of it but, it's hard...

 

[HeroMystic]

How would you camp him into fsmashes? I don't get it.

You'd be surprised how many Metaknights run into F-Smash once they get annoyed by fireball camping.

Cape when used for stalling purposes and baiting works the same way as in other matchups, just saying. When MK approaches the edge, it's worth caping him just to disorient him and fool around with the amount of jumps he has. Also remember that as long as it's possible to make him run out of jumps, it's possible to cape all of his recoveries bar gliding (if he glide attacks our cape, which if he's too far offstage he can't do, but it's rather trivial), which we can at least attack his blind spot with attacks that reset edgeguarding such as uair. I don't have much of a problem gimping good MK players. That's actually a lot of my hope for winning matches against them.

Baiting/Stalling purposes is meh. I suppose baiting with cape works. I personally never tried it since I prefer keeping my distance.

If Metaknight is approaching the edge low, either Mario did something epic, or MK's DI sucks. He has 5(?) jumps, a Glide, and Shuttle Loop as a 2nd glide. There honestly should be no reason why Metaknight should be approaching low, unless N-air or B-air hits Metaknight while he's at a decently high percentage.

I'd like to know how you can consistently gimp Metaknight, which means you're not allowing them to recover high.

A ground tornado can be beaten by pretty much everything and the priority of an aerial tornado is much higher. Any grounded attack that does 10% or higher will beat the tornado. IMO, Mario's best option on the ground is to up smash MK's tornado from below, this will beat it.

Useful information here.

MK's aerial tornado does not clank.

It does clank. Aerial Tornado does not have transcended priority. It just has a large blindspot at the top and bottom of the tornado.

Mario can also nair because Shuttle Loop isn't disjointed.

Success rate?

I'm not talking about OOS. I mean if Mario is actually out of range of MK's down smash or any other move for that matter.

>.> Okay.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

I find the match to be easy For mario

I don't know what hius weaknesses are but I bet alot of MK'S easily

Maybe because there hepless after using a specail in the air or when recovering

Play better MK players, this MU ain't easy, dude.

 

[BSP]

I find the match to be easy For mario

I don't know what hius weaknesses are but I bet alot of MK'S easily

Maybe because there hepless after using a specail in the air or when recovering

This is not an easy matchup at all. Play some good MK's, it's pretty tough.

IDK how mario's going to be gimping MK unless he's recovering low, which will almost never happen.

 

[Javon89]

Yoshi's Island 2 a good stage-pick?

 

[Matt07]

I find this match-up pretty **** fun, not gonna lie, lol. About the Tornado do you think FLUDD'ing them up, then using up smash would work, unless this has already been mentioned, then my bad.

Not really much more to add, Fireball's are your best trick in this match-up, when he's near the ledge don't try anything foolish, you'll eat a f-air or a Shuttle Loop. Just let him do his sheninigans and back off. Bo's helped me a lot, and I tend to d-air their shield a lot.

Try to avoid hitting their shield however, because n-air will just rack up damage so quick.

If their at a stock lead and stalling...Fireball'ing near the ledge is your safest option...

I'd like to see this at a 60:40, however, see it being 65:35.

 

[Big-Omar]

YI works well IMO. Nice high ceiling so you wont die as fast, but then you cant use Usmash to your advantage.

 

[Javon89]

Plus no under-stage recovery, but that dumb ghost may come once in a while.

Enough fooling around, I guess mostly you'll have to work really hard for this match. The things you can try on him depends on how aggressive MK is and how gay he plays.

 

[hippiedude92]

in my experience of mms/tourney sets, i never really found YI that good or maybe bad not sure. l dont really like the stage in general because, shy guys (although dont make a significant difference) they can make you lag some moves and block your fireballs (same for mk) and the curved edge, let's mk spam his dtilt like a ***.

not to mention SO many stage sheriginans there lol, the ghost platform, the ceilings might be too high for upsmash but blast zones i think are okies, for fsmash.

i find halberd to better cp esp in 2nd transformation.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Now if I can just find a way to beat DSF...

 

[Veggi]

If Metaknight is approaching the edge low, either Mario did something epic, or MK's DI sucks. He has 5(?) jumps, a Glide, and Shuttle Loop as a 2nd glide. There honestly should be no reason why Metaknight should be approaching low, unless N-air or B-air hits Metaknight while he's at a decently high percentage.

MK's air speed is really bad, so he has to waste jumps to get to where he wants. If he uses glide, his options become extremely limited because of the few things MK can do from a glide. Once he gets knocked out of the glide he's free for edgeguarding. It's not like MK wastes all of his jumps to go as high as he can before he recovers because the lack of jumps take away his options significantly.

Nair or bair hitting him offstage at a high percent is very common, down smash as well.

It does clank. Aerial Tornado does not have transcended priority. It just has a large blindspot at the top and bottom of the tornado.

In what situations would tornado clank? I know that the individual hits of the tornado can clank, but I've never seen something stop the tornado without doing damage to MK.

Success rate?

I can't remember, honestly. Although I have no memory of being knocked out of my nair. I know that fire fox outprioritizes MK's shuttle loop though, which is pretty pathetic. I rarely get hit by aerial shuttle loops as Mario. I get tons of them handed to me as DK though.

 

[Sleek Media]

In what situations would tornado clank? I know that the individual hits of the tornado can clank, but I've never seen something stop the tornado without doing damage to MK.

Can't help you with your other questions, but if I use dAir and hit tornado from the side, they cancel each other out. MK seems to recover immediately, so it's not advantageous to stop it that way most of the time. I could be wrong, though.

 

[vato_break]

fireballs also stop the tornado by clanking sometimes but, can someone tell me why it does this? i'm not sure.

 

[Veggi]

@ Sleek

It actually stopped MK from doing the move or you stopped the individual hits.

@ Vato

Was it on the ground?

 

[JUDGE]

ok guys it's JUDGE time nao
i have fought many really good mk's offline and online such as GALE 14, analboy,staco, xDD-master
the only high ranked mk in germany i havn't fought yet is reaper...gonna get that fight soon though^^

leave this MU to me guys, i am already working on a guide which is completley focused on mk since it's one of marios baddest MU's and is one of the most used chars in tourneys...
in this guide,i listed advantages,disadvantages,strategies,counter options etc etc.^^
i have spend really much time in this guide so leave this to me and we can skip to the next char

only thing i have to mention nao is: you need to have really much experience fighting against mk's


@vato
i analysed this too and it only happens when he is at close range and is approaching you on the ground

like i said guys, leave this to me

 

[Veggi]

I look forward to it.

 

[Inferno3044]

For me, what do do against a tornado depends on his placement. If he is too close, I'll just shield it. I personally don't feel confident enough to fireball the top of it so I don't do it. If he does it from a distance, I'll attempt to dodge it and follow him when he's retreating and punish it. If I have a distance and I have FLUDD charged, I'll use it and it will put him too high in the air to hit me and punish him.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

FLUDD his tornado to push him off stage so he can lose his recovery and take off his stock.

 

[Veggi]

I don't have any memory of the tornado going much if any distance horixontally when being hit by FLUDD sprays. I just know the thing sky rockets.

 

[Matador]

Fludd has weird mechanics with nado. It never consistently does what I want when I spray it. Sometimes it'll go up though, which is always a desired effect...

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think it depends on which part of the nado you hit with, but I'd suggest aiming for the top.

 

[mars16]

I'd rather just avoid and wait for the opening

 

[HeroMystic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdXvPIoWtRU <--- 4:11