The Luigi Social Thread

[CR4SH]

Luigi Cyclone is to Brawl what angel sex is to your face.

I just caught that. And I love that.

<3<3<3 <-angel ballsacks

 

[ALiAsVee]

@Elheber, KoSa! uses a gamecube controller, I play friendlies with him all the time. Idk why he just doesn't ask me ._.""

 

[A2ZOMG]

Anyone in any matchup can bait a response and punish, therefore a better player can win anything. But when we're talking MATCHUPS, we're talking even playing field. On an even playing field, marth ****S LUIGI UP. Take up a kong.

Marth in particular is especially vulnerable to baiting due to light weight and existent lag time between individual moves (meaning that the opening for landing powerful moves on him is there if you know exactly what to look for). Marth also is one of the weaker characters at the ledge and when he's above characters. This is one reason why Marth has a high learning curve.

That being said...good Marth's are the ones that bait you instead.

I'd suggest saving B-throw for KOs in this matchup since edgeguarding him is usually risky and counterproductive, but fresh B-throw KOs reliably at 140% (maybe earlier since he's a lightweight). If you can somehow land a D-air on him offstage, he's done for, but timing that especially as he Up-Bs is a daunting task. Luigi's N-air would be a great edgeguarding tool...if it sent people sideways instead of vertically (hits Marth out of Up-B all the time seriously. It's something I do more with Mario however.).

Oh and although Jab cancels have risk against him, Jab is a godsend in this matchup regardless. It has the most range of Luigi's ground moves, and nearly as much range as Marth's Jab if I recall.

 

[hippiedude92]

but his jab is disjointed

and he has a sword

lol.

 

[elheber]

Luigi's recovery is predictable...

No.

Perhaps YOUR Luigi's recovery is predictable. I'll also agree that many Luigi mainer's recoveries are predictable. But saying Luigi's recovery is predictable is like blaming a bullet for a murder. You need to improve on and mix up your recoveries if that's what you think. Falling cyclones, stalling cyclones from above, stalling cyclones from below, purposely missing sweetspots from above or below, delaying your recovery, JRCs, saving your jump, and whatnot, are all different recoveries that Luigi mainers fail to use, and thus people get the misconception that Luigi's recovery is predictable. They only fight Luigi mainers who GM to JERC to SJP in that order.

There aren't many characters with the amount of options he has.

 

[LuigiKing]

Our wifi matches were super serious hippie :O

 

[zhao_guang]

No.

Perhaps YOUR Luigi's recovery is predictable. I'll also agree that many Luigi mainer's recoveries are predictable. But saying Luigi's recovery is predictable is like blaming a bullet for a murder. You need to improve on and mix up your recoveries if that's what you think. Falling cyclones, stalling cyclones from above, stalling cyclones from below, purposely missing sweetspots from above or below, delaying your recovery, JRCs, saving your jump, and whatnot, are all different recoveries that Luigi mainers fail to use, and thus people get the misconception that Luigi's recovery is predictable. They only fight Luigi mainers who GM to JERC to SJP in that order.

There aren't many characters with the amount of options he has.

You have to be kidding if you think I recover the same ways each time. Do you honestly think after getting gimped by good Marths for hours on end, I would recover the same way? Of course I mix it up, that's the only way I can stay in the game! I agree, there are some ways to recover that avoid getting gimped at lower percents, but if the Marth uses split second reactions, he can still get you with a move and rack up some damage. All the options Luigi has to recover still go hand in hand with one another and can still be read and punished with great reactions.

I hardly ever get gimped by any characters except for Marth and MK. (unless the person I'm playing is flat out better than me) Clearly they can do something to me off the edge that makes it extremely hard for me to get on.

EDIT: My problem before was that my double jump was predictable. I fixed that, but as they say, when one door closes, another one opens. They can find something else to predict and punish.

 

[hippiedude92]

you really need to look up marth's zoning lol. usually marths dont go offstage, but at higher level, they'll know when its right to offstage.

i mean srsly its not that hard to reduce luigis options offstage, he can have 10 options to recovery, but it wont be able to beat a simple Marths Fair. it's what marth specializes tbh. ledgetraps, reducing your options what not, split second reactions, thats why they **** offline not online lol.

marths fair > luigis tornado, upb, green missile, sometimes second jump and fireball lol.

 

[Locuan]

After a randomly humiliating tropical depression Ana, Locuan in PR had a great idea, take a super hurricane like Bill and make it miss Puerto Rico which sits like a rock in the middle of the Caribbean and slingshot it towards Canada in Zhao's direction.

Seriously CANADA WTF hurricane Bill?

 

[zhao_guang]

After a randomly humiliating tropical depression Ana, Locuan in PR had a great idea, take a super hurricane like Bill and make it miss Puerto Rico which sits like a rock in the middle of the Caribbean and slingshot it towards Canada in Zhao's direction.

Seriously CANADA WTF hurricane Bill?

The week before the big Nova Scotia regional tournament too.

**** me.

 

[CRASHiC]

Every Bill I have ever met is a huge pot head. This Bill is no different.

 

[hippiedude92]

i told zhao i'd keep him in his prayers by using his tag and using puigi too LOL

ill do same for u locuan =D

 

[A2ZOMG]

but his jab is disjointed

and he has a sword

lol.

What else are you gonna do to punish him when you get it?

Be glad you have a 2 frame Jab. That **** is awesome.

 

[AGuyNamedRaf]

What else are you gonna do to punish him when you get it?

Be glad you have a 2 frame Jab. That **** is awesome.

2 frame jab is2gud... unless it's Marth. Then it's hard to hit that ****.

 

[hippiedude92]

Not really hard to land it, majority of the time, it'll be your move that you land often aside from bair. Sliding jabs, jab cancels, jab mindgames, luigi is pretty garbage tbh if he doesn't have the frame 2 jab lol.

 

[ALiAsVee]

No.

Perhaps YOUR Luigi's recovery is predictable. I'll also agree that many Luigi mainer's recoveries are predictable. But saying Luigi's recovery is predictable is like blaming a bullet for a murder. You need to improve on and mix up your recoveries if that's what you think. Falling cyclones, stalling cyclones from above, stalling cyclones from below, purposely missing sweetspots from above or below, delaying your recovery, JRCs, saving your jump, and whatnot, are all different recoveries that Luigi mainers fail to use, and thus people get the misconception that Luigi's recovery is predictable. They only fight Luigi mainers who GM to JERC to SJP in that order.

There aren't many characters with the amount of options he has.

Even if there are multiple means of recovery, which I have to agree with you on, characters with the objective downair or fair like MK or Marth don't really care how you're getting back to the stage, because no matter what you do, you'll plow right through.

If we're talking high level gameplay, which we usually are, if at anytime you get knocked off stage by certain characters, like Marth, the only way you're making it back on stage is if your opponent fouls up. Granted, Marth typically won't pursue you off stage, but once you hit the ledge your dramatic off stage options turns to a relatively dismal amount of ledge options. Even if you out wit your opponent off stage, it's imperative that you make it back to the stage first to reset the phase in battle.

But, if we're talking Marth, why bother chasing you offstage? I believe Zhao was implying the end result of an off stage Luigi vs a Marth was predictable because it takes little effort for Marth to position himself to take advantage of Luigi. He'll force you to the ledge, and I don't think it can be argued that Luigi has just as many feasible ledge techs as he does off stage techs, especially against a spacy Marth.

Recovery in my eyes should be defined as the process of getting back to a position where you either reset the situation in battle to neutral, or change it to your favor. All these off stage techniques are moot points if the Marth game is forcing you on edge, rather than beating you off stage.

I'm just reiterating my view that Luigi does have a predictable recovery, as per what my definition of recovery. A majority of Luigi's off stage techs do little to nothing to actually change the tide in battle off stage, so the opponent typically can go to attack you with a fairly High Reward to little risk.. Cyclone techniques in particular are easily read and countered, and even if we can manipulate the speed and heighr of the move, inevitably it's always going to go Up and Down. Luigi's torpedo is the same, but lateral, and is hopeless against almost any projectile.

Saving your jump is a mainstay to the Luigi off stage game that can score counters through footstools, or at the very least get you a safe distance away to an ALiAs "recovery". It's a situational tactic that finds applications based on the experience of the user.

Missing sweetspots or changing up when and where you use the UpB is in the same boat as saving your jump. I have gimped people with the UpB, and I have tricked people by messing up the sweetspot. For the most part, it is a neutral recovery that merits little threat from opponents. Even then, I can think of several examples where the opponent either predicts the intention of Luigi, or altogether positions himself in such a manner than it really doesn't matter where you land the UpB.

I haven't dabbled with JRCs too much yet to give an opinion on that. Can you explain what GM and JERC stand for you lost me there. xD.

In short, I believe Luigi has multiple options in offstage recovery that become moot points in the wake of someone looking to keep you on the ledge or off stage by sheer fact that his techniques are not able to counter the opponent and punish their behavior. Luigi recovery requires a lot more work than it does to counter him, and the world predictable might just be a conclusion to the things I've said.

I haven't written a counterpoint on the Luigi Metagame in a long time o_O.

 

[yoshq]

Even if there are multiple means of recovery, which I have to agree with you on, characters with the objective downair or fair like MK or Marth don't really care how you're getting back to the stage, because no matter what you do, you'll plow right through.

If we're talking high level gameplay, which we usually are, if at anytime you get knocked off stage by certain characters, like Marth, the only way you're making it back on stage is if your opponent fouls up. Granted, Marth typically won't pursue you off stage, but once you hit the ledge your dramatic off stage options turns to a relatively dismal amount of ledge options. Even if you out wit your opponent off stage, it's imperative that you make it back to the stage first to reset the phase in battle.

But, if we're talking Marth, why bother chasing you offstage? I believe Zhao was implying the end result of an off stage Luigi vs a Marth was predictable because it takes little effort for Marth to position himself to take advantage of Luigi. He'll force you to the ledge, and I don't think it can be argued that Luigi has just as many feasible ledge techs as he does off stage techs, especially against a spacy Marth.

Recovery in my eyes should be defined as the process of getting back to a position where you either reset the situation in battle to neutral, or change it to your favor. All these off stage techniques are moot points if the Marth game is forcing you on edge, rather than beating you off stage.

I'm just reiterating my view that Luigi does have a predictable recovery, as per what my definition of recovery. A majority of Luigi's off stage techs do little to nothing to actually change the tide in battle off stage, so the opponent typically can go to attack you with a fairly High Reward to little risk.. Cyclone techniques in particular are easily read and countered, and even if we can manipulate the speed and heighr of the move, inevitably it's always going to go Up and Down. Luigi's torpedo is the same, but lateral, and is hopeless against almost any projectile.

Saving your jump is a mainstay to the Luigi off stage game that can score counters through footstools, or at the very least get you a safe distance away to an ALiAs "recovery". It's a situational tactic that finds applications based on the experience of the user.

Missing sweetspots or changing up when and where you use the UpB is in the same boat as saving your jump. I have gimped people with the UpB, and I have tricked people by messing up the sweetspot. For the most part, it is a neutral recovery that merits little threat from opponents. Even then, I can think of several examples where the opponent either predicts the intention of Luigi, or altogether positions himself in such a manner than it really doesn't matter where you land the UpB.

I haven't dabbled with JRCs too much yet to give an opinion on that. Can you explain what GM and JERC stand for you lost me there. xD.

In short, I believe Luigi has multiple options in offstage recovery that become moot points in the wake of someone looking to keep you on the ledge or off stage by sheer fact that his techniques are not able to counter the opponent and punish their behavior. Luigi recovery requires a lot more work than it does to counter him, and the world predictable might just be a conclusion to the things I've said.

I haven't written a counterpoint on the Luigi Metagame in a long time o_O.

WOW save that essay writing for school. you guys are taking this way too seriously.

 

[ALiAsVee]

WOW save that essay writing for school. you guys are taking this way too seriously.

Buddy you haven't seen my other stuff. I'm an independent writer that gets bored on weeknights.

 

[hippiedude92]

tl;dr he means, marths fair will wreck no matter what option or mixup luigi will use if hes recovering, yay still 6/4 or 65:35 marth not that horrid, or pick mk lol

 

[CR4SH]

Luigi has 3 recovery moves, they go really far when you put them together. Problem, 2 of those moves say "HI! I'm about to do THIS, and you have about a second and a half to **** me before I get it done! Enjoy!"

Luigi's recovery is very predictable. Lots of characters can't do **** about it though, about 7 can. Out of those 7ish, 4 or 5 **** you REALLY HARD for trying to recover anywhere but in a bubble above the stage.

 

[elheber]

I respectfully disagree with zhao (*shakes fist*), ALiAs, and cr4sh. You can say Luigi has a bad recovery. You can say he has a vulnerable recovery. You can say he has a gimpable recovery. I won't argue any of that. But you can't say it's predictable. You can say recoveries used by most Luigi mainers including yourselves are predictable, but not Luigi's.

I honesty think you guys don't use enough different types of recoveries. I have to check your videos again.

 

[hippiedude92]

eh its too situational imo to mix up anyways lol.
'

go make a guide or a number of options list that you can mix up with recoveries i'd like to see fo sho.

oh and our videos i think are really outdated lol i think tho,.

most of my vids are most up to date, but with me fooling around cus its friendlies and i like losing and putting it up there on youtube =D

 

[A1lion835]

Kirby boards are discussing Luigi! Any help with the discussion would be appreciated.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236395

 

[ALiAsVee]

I respectfully disagree with zhao (*shakes fist*), ALiAs, and cr4sh. You can say Luigi has a bad recovery. You can say he has a vulnerable recovery. You can say he has a gimpable recovery. I won't argue any of that. But you can't say it's predictable. You can say recoveries used by most Luigi mainers including yourselves are predictable, but not Luigi's.

I honesty think you guys don't use enough different types of recoveries. I have to check your videos again.

Show us some videos in application if you aren't going to refute the argument beyond self - proclaimed assertions; I gave my line by line counter.

 

[TreK]

Not really hard to land it, majority of the time, it'll be your move that you land often aside from bair. Sliding jabs, jab cancels, jab mindgames, luigi is pretty garbage tbh if he doesn't have the frame 2 jab lol.

I hit a lot more with fair than jab because people realized everytime I jab them they take 40% so they camp. so I fair them. wtf ._.
*writes down on a notepaper -> learn how to jab more often*

 

[ALiAsVee]

I hit a lot more with fair than jab because people realized everytime I jab them they take 40% so they camp. so I fair them. wtf ._.
*writes down on a notepaper -> learn how to jab more often*

Try to condition yourself to jabbing off of their short hops. If you land a jab while they are in the air they can't do anything about it.

But if they're camping, just ditch the jab and go straight for the grab! As in, most of the time if people aren't in a position to counter attack they'll put their shields up expecting a jab.

 

[elheber]

Show us some videos in application if you aren't going to refute the argument beyond self - proclaimed assertions; I gave my line by line counter.

Yeah, but I said that all you proved is that Luigi's recovery is gimpable at best.

But here's some vids. In this video against Ekzwizit's Fox I recoverd 3 times...
First is JRC to jump to uncharged GM to sweetspot SJP. Next is GM to JRC stall to jump onstage. Then jump to above stage cyclone stall.

In this one against a Bowser, I recover 4 times...
First is jump into firebreath ASDI into FJP. Second is non-sweetspot GM onto platform. Next is JERC. Then it's GM to JRC to jump onto platform. Then badly a GM that got me KOd. Then a great jump to a below-stage cyclone stall that saves me from a KO, to a sweetspot SJP.

 

[CR4SH]

Elh, bowser and fox shouldn't be able to gimp you anyway.

Ive been playing around with the reverse hyphen, its ****ing incredible. Kills mario, full charge sweetspotted at 68 when they're braindead. That might be old news because its probably the same thing as regular usmash.

Something interesting I found though, the sweetspot reaches forward too. The tip of his hat, seemingly whenever it hits, is the sweetspot. Is this known?

 

[elheber]

I'm not talking about gimping. I'm talking about predictability. I've been talking about predictability since the post that started all this.

 

[LuigiKing]

Something interesting I found though, the sweetspot reaches forward too. The tip of his hat, seemingly whenever it hits, is the sweetspot. Is this known?

I made a post about this sometime ago and apparently no one knew anything about the way his Usmash sweetspots work.

There is the best hitbox right as the Usmash comes out, right behind luigi. And it seems like as the attack travels there is a slightly better than normal hitbox that follows the edge of his hat and off into the disjointed part. The rest is kinda crap.

 

[CR4SH]

Well, as far as I can tell, the front end hits just as hard as the back does if you sweetspot it. Its just that the front box is smaller and slower.

 

[hippiedude92]

OOS upsmash from behind works alot better too. his hitbox is REALLY BIG from like behind his head though.

 

[ALiAsVee]

Yeah, but I said that all you proved is that Luigi's recovery is gimpable at best.

But here's some vids. In this video against Ekzwizit's Fox I recoverd 3 times...
First is JRC to jump to uncharged GM to sweetspot SJP. Next is GM to JRC stall to jump onstage. Then jump to above stage cyclone stall.

In this one against a Bowser, I recover 4 times...
First is jump into firebreath ASDI into FJP. Second is non-sweetspot GM onto platform. Next is JERC. Then it's GM to JRC to jump onto platform. Then badly a GM that got me KOd. Then a great jump to a below-stage cyclone stall that saves me from a KO, to a sweetspot SJP.

When Crash refers to not being able to gimp Luigi, I assume he's implying they (Bowser and Fox) don't have the options to take you out off stage comfortably. If you read my post earlier, I said I refer to predictability in that your forward is punishable, not whenever or not your opponents know what you're going to do off stage. Fox has no need to take Luigi off stage. His projectiles don't interrupt his attacks, and he falls too fast and has too stiff a recovery to make it back from far distance safely. So what does he do? He waits until you hit the ledge.

:58 - 1:05 - Your first recovery. The fox falls off stage, but quickly retreats back and positions himself at the optimal spot to counter pretty much all of Luigi's ledge options. He's about a foxtrot away from the edge. When you do your "unpredictable" off stage recovery, you push off the ledge and get KOed by a bair. Like I said earlier, the mentality amongst most people is that recovery should mean getting back on stage and either having the upper hand or on even playing field with your opponent. No one cares about all the different things you can do, because most characters don't bother Luigi off stage in the first place.

Bowser and Fox are your two examples, and neither of them actively pursued you offstage, so why does it matter how you recover?

2:00 On the Bowser Match - You stalled the cyclone to avoid Bowser's Fsmash. Okay, after some further play you manage to UpB onto the ledge, and land a Fsmash on him. Would it have been too "predictable" to just sweet spot an UpB and immediately counterattack? Just because you list all the multiple ways you recover doesn't mean it's always the most effective. Especially stalling cyclone techniques, a major reason I don't do them often is because the opponents I fight would take advantage so fast it's not worth mixing my game up.

1:34 On the fox match - That set up looked to me like you just missed the ledge and compensated for the error. In itself, that's a good move. However, if you're going to bring that up as a way to recover to mix the recovery game, then I can't agree. That fox just barely let you escape without getting stage spiked. Again, just because you did things differently, doesn't mean it was better.

3:15 On the fox match - The rising cyclone was something I would've done. Other things could've been done in that situation, but I could see myself doing that to reset the situation. Of the three recoveries in that first video, the only one that seemed viable for the situation is this one, and I'm sure you and me wouldn't be the only ones to do that given the circumstances. Could a fox have seen it coming? Sure, but there is little that can be done about it.

Those two videos yielded incidents where your opponents met you on the ledge, rather than actively pursue you offstage. Marth, whom we were originally discussing, is one of those characters, with the exception that he is very good at it. Hippie said it I think; unless they are very high level Marths, they will wait for you on the ledge rather than go after you. As Luigi, we draw the line between mixing up our recoveries to avoid the easy gimp, and going overboard in an offstage ballet that the opponent wants no part in.

DK will shoguard you, immediately forcing you to cyclone offstage almost all the time to get over him, and there is little you can do about it. Mario can fireball with great persistence to thwart stalling cyclones of the sort. MK will just come out and **** you. Most Luigi mainers fight under circumstances where only one or two recovery options that are viable/needed. The hardest part of Luigi's recovery is getting from the ledge back on your feet.

So essentially, you haven't proved your effectiveness in your style of recovery, vs everyone else's "predictable" recoveries, to me at least.

 

[LuigiKing]

OK guys, this is how we resolve this stupid recovery dispute. Alias and Elheber both go to an actual tournament and count how many times they get gimped. Whoever gets gimped the most loses the argument.

 

[hippiedude92]

luigis still easy to gimp no johns

i mean peachs turnip stops our green missile T.T

 

[zhao_guang]

Hurricane Bill is hitting tomorrow/tonight/in the next 24 hours/I'm ****ed.

g'bye Luigi boards, I leave you with my gorgeous extremely sexual picture: http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=31399

Stay breezy.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Elh, bowser and fox shouldn't be able to gimp you anyway.

Ive been playing around with the reverse hyphen, its ****ing incredible. Kills mario, full charge sweetspotted at 68 when they're braindead. That might be old news because its probably the same thing as regular usmash.

Something interesting I found though, the sweetspot reaches forward too. The tip of his hat, seemingly whenever it hits, is the sweetspot. Is this known?

Secretly, I've been wondering why people bother saying sweetspot when there ain't one.

Luigi's U-smash and Mario's U-smash only KO earlier on an aerial opponent (because they are higher up). The power is the same on the entire hitbox.

The back hit reaches further horizontally, and that's about it. What this is good for is disrupting opponents who like to cross you up. Or better yet, punishing your opponent with your own crossup.

From testing, I believe Mario and Luigi actually slide further from doing a DAC and charging Up-smash than they do just running and charging Up-smash. It's great on both characters however (especially Luigi of course).

 

[ALiAsVee]

OK guys, this is how we resolve this stupid recovery dispute. Alias and Elheber both go to an actual tournament and count how many times they get gimped. Whoever gets gimped the most loses the argument.

It's not even about getting gimped >_>. Elh and I have said this already.

Hurricane Bill is hitting tomorrow/tonight/in the next 24 hours/I'm ****ed.

g'bye Luigi boards, I leave you with my gorgeous extremely sexual picture: http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=31399

Stay breezy.

I never met a Bill I liked D;

 

[A2ZOMG]

Luigi's recovery is great. Just easily gimped by the right opponents.

Most importantly, Luigi can mix it up offstage to keep his opponent guessing. None of his tools are foolproof, but for the most part, they require different strategies to counter.

Mario in comparison has some pretty solid recovery tools, but is overly dependent on a specific way to recover.

Both fail at recovery against G&W. =/

G&W anyhow is my worst matchup as a Mario/Luigi user. His startup lag is significant, but his ending lag is quite low, making it hard to land a KO move on him when it counts...And his lingering hitboxes are hard to get around if he knows what he's doing.

 

[CR4SH]

When Crash refers to not being able to gimp Luigi, I assume he's implying they (Bowser and Fox) don't have the options to take you out off stage comfortably.

What I meant was, those two characters don't have the tools to ruin you for recovering low. You can recover low against bowser and fox. They both CAN hurt you for using tornado, but more often than that they get stagespike or otherwise knocked away. A perfect dair from fox can **** you up, but if you have any idea about it, its pretty much impossible to land.

By contrast, metaknight can just **** through everything you have with glowing metal.

As for stalling with a tornado, that just gives them more time to setup a gimp, plus it means you can't rising tornado. Booty balls.

Secretly, I've been wondering why people bother saying sweetspot when there ain't one.

You're dead wrong about that bro. Go to training mode, get mario out. Set up and charge a usmash while overlapping him, then do it again when you're JUST inside usmash range. The difference is drastic.

It's a whole lot like DK's dsmash. Both sides have sweetspots in similar areas, but the back end is better. Hits the same, just has a better hitbox.