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The Lucas Boards' MU Thread - Discussing: Sonic
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themrskills
Smash Apprentice
I actually dont mind this matchup that much. Our aerials are so much faster than his, and if you can break his momentum with the 'nades and mines and such, his game really seems to fall apart.
Admiral Pit
Smash Hero
I do want to contribute on Snake a bit, since there is a similar situation that Pit faces.
Use your N-air carefully, especially around a Snake with a 'nade close by. If you do use the N-air, you may blow up the Nade, damaging urself and Snake a bit (If his Shield isn't up) and since Pit's N-air is very identical to Lucas' N-air in terms of close-ranged multi-hit properties, I should know this.
Also, if u do grab a Snake outta Up-B somehow, keep in mind that they can try using a C4 to blow themselves up, but also regaining their Up-B. By all means though, go for the Spike when u see that opportunity. Like poor Pit, Snake's Up-B doesn't cancel the knockback momentum and will most likely not come back.
Use your N-air carefully, especially around a Snake with a 'nade close by. If you do use the N-air, you may blow up the Nade, damaging urself and Snake a bit (If his Shield isn't up) and since Pit's N-air is very identical to Lucas' N-air in terms of close-ranged multi-hit properties, I should know this.
Also, if u do grab a Snake outta Up-B somehow, keep in mind that they can try using a C4 to blow themselves up, but also regaining their Up-B. By all means though, go for the Spike when u see that opportunity. Like poor Pit, Snake's Up-B doesn't cancel the knockback momentum and will most likely not come back.
clowsui
Smash Legend
This is my prediction of what Tyr's gonna say:
Snake is ****ing gay. I wish he didn't exist. What a ***got-*** character. I'd sooner ban this mother****er than Metaknight. If I'm not losing to Metaknight I'm losing to this piece of **** character. At least you can try and approach Metaknight. If you approach Snake he just blows the **** up and you're in danger of dying and he's not even at the point where he has to DI. God **** it.
Snake is ****ing gay. I wish he didn't exist. What a ***got-*** character. I'd sooner ban this mother****er than Metaknight. If I'm not losing to Metaknight I'm losing to this piece of **** character. At least you can try and approach Metaknight. If you approach Snake he just blows the **** up and you're in danger of dying and he's not even at the point where he has to DI. God **** it.
Dude, Snake is the most overpowered character in this game. I'm picking up Wario just to deal with his broken ***. Lucas has a harder time getting past his grenade camping than like any other character. It's ridiculous. Not to mention killing him is **** near impossible.
PK Freeze, PK Thunder, Fair and Bair are all edgeguarding tools you can use against him. Fair is a good move if he is 'nade camping because it doesn't blow up the grenades. I think Uair might work too but has less range so you're more likely to get grabbed or Ftilted. Don't try to punish spaced Ftilts because you can't. Roll away from them or behind Snake if he commits to the second hit of Ftilt. If you aim PK Fire a little higher than you might on some characters Snake will sometimes throw grenades right into it and blow himself up. But in the end his grenades will beat your PK Fire since he has so much more control over them and can cook them to blow up on you. DI Utilt behind Snake to live a little longer even though it will kill you stupidly early. Take advantage of Snake falling anytime you can with Fsmashes when he lands or try to juggle him with Uairs. Japes is by far the best stage to take Snake to. He can't do **** there and Lucas is great there. If he bans that you can try Pictochat because it has a high ceiling. Only problem is he can camp you there pretty well. Frigate Orpheon is a decent choice as well because it keeps Snake in the air where he's vulnerable. I wouldn't suggest Norfair or Brinstar because they actually space really well for Snake and give him a lot of Dthrow reading options (on Brinstar he can even infinite you.) Banning Halberd is probably your best bet. Green greens is scary against Snake because he kills so easily there but Lucas can outcamp him because of the blocks so it's not as bad as Halberd in my opinion. Also Lucas can get kills off the sides relatively easily there.
But mostly Snake is just broken as **** so you shouldn't be surprised when you lose.
PK Freeze, PK Thunder, Fair and Bair are all edgeguarding tools you can use against him. Fair is a good move if he is 'nade camping because it doesn't blow up the grenades. I think Uair might work too but has less range so you're more likely to get grabbed or Ftilted. Don't try to punish spaced Ftilts because you can't. Roll away from them or behind Snake if he commits to the second hit of Ftilt. If you aim PK Fire a little higher than you might on some characters Snake will sometimes throw grenades right into it and blow himself up. But in the end his grenades will beat your PK Fire since he has so much more control over them and can cook them to blow up on you. DI Utilt behind Snake to live a little longer even though it will kill you stupidly early. Take advantage of Snake falling anytime you can with Fsmashes when he lands or try to juggle him with Uairs. Japes is by far the best stage to take Snake to. He can't do **** there and Lucas is great there. If he bans that you can try Pictochat because it has a high ceiling. Only problem is he can camp you there pretty well. Frigate Orpheon is a decent choice as well because it keeps Snake in the air where he's vulnerable. I wouldn't suggest Norfair or Brinstar because they actually space really well for Snake and give him a lot of Dthrow reading options (on Brinstar he can even infinite you.) Banning Halberd is probably your best bet. Green greens is scary against Snake because he kills so easily there but Lucas can outcamp him because of the blocks so it's not as bad as Halberd in my opinion. Also Lucas can get kills off the sides relatively easily there.
But mostly Snake is just broken as **** so you shouldn't be surprised when you lose.
clowsui
Smash Legend
Man I'm a genius. Didn't I tell all of you that he would get annoyed at Snake? 
Rachmaninav89
Smash Apprentice
DONT GET GRABBED AT 100 percent and up. Free kill for snake. All it takes is a grab release to up tilt. So cheap haha. If you can manage to jump out of the grab release you saved yourself for a few extra minutes probably. I like this match up more than metaknight, just because metaknight annoys me with all the flailing going around. The sounds in the game can effect me sometimes, so when I hear metaknight all I think is spam and idiocracy, but snake is alittle more interesting I suppose, even though he is just as difficult to to fight against. But as long as you can keep from getting grab released and make sure you avoid his grenade and c4 placement it's not absolutely horrible i suppose. He has alot of priority, but if you can get jabs in, and nair, it helps to rack up damage. Be careful doing down air, but it does help put pressure. and zap jump works great for recovery cause you can jump over his mortars. Also snake has a high trip probability so dtilt works pretty good at messing him up. And use pk thunder off the edges to rack damage and possibly mindgame to upsmash haha. Unfortunately a good snake player doesn't die really, and it takes alot, so you just have to be patient when it comes to getting the kill moves in and tilts, etc. Probably 65-35 his favor? because of his whole, I'll just grabrelease uptilt you for a free cheap kill, kind of deal.
ZMan
Smash Master
for some unexplained reason, i do really bad against snake with lucas moreso than any other character.
but really, **** this matchup, serious disadvantage. i picked up d3 just so i can have an easier time working around his bull****
but really, **** this matchup, serious disadvantage. i picked up d3 just so i can have an easier time working around his bull****
Inferno3044
Smash Master
Mario's are discussing Lucas. Come join the conversation
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=227291&page=114
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=227291&page=114
rPSIvysaur
[ɑɹsaɪ]
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I don't think any Snakes really responded to my post... will someone else try to get them help with the MU?
GreyClover
Smash Apprentice
Snake beats the crap out of us.
Close combat will get your face ****ed up with grab releases and tilts so don't do it. Fairs are feally good for you, space with it and combo him. The air is the best place to be, trust me you're safer there than anywhere. Like I said before use Fairs alot espically since Snake doesn't have anything thats fast enough or outpriorities it, Snake can't use his grenades effectively either in the air. Jab grabs are great for racking up damage because of Snake's wieght, you can also Utilt when your in close with Snake being so easy to juggle. Don't get too greedy with your OoS options, jabbing is the safest move, anything that has lag will get you shield grabed. The mortar DAC is easily stopped with Fsmashes or grabs so keep that in mind.
If you havn't noticed by now but Snake is **** hard to kill, sometimes it may feel like he's impossible to KO with overrated DI abilities. Save all your smashes till the end, Fsmash, Usmash, Dsmash, and any other strong attacks you feel comfortable with.
Gimping Snake is real easy if he's recovering under. Fairs, Bairs, Dairs, hell anything punishes Snake hard. When Snake's above it's not hard either. Just keep comboing him farther offstage, assuming he doesn't C4 recover.
Counterpick with RC. Snake won't be able to ground combat enough and the limited space messes up his DAC, mindgames, and grenades. Your aerial spam will be hell on him.
Close combat will get your face ****ed up with grab releases and tilts so don't do it. Fairs are feally good for you, space with it and combo him. The air is the best place to be, trust me you're safer there than anywhere. Like I said before use Fairs alot espically since Snake doesn't have anything thats fast enough or outpriorities it, Snake can't use his grenades effectively either in the air. Jab grabs are great for racking up damage because of Snake's wieght, you can also Utilt when your in close with Snake being so easy to juggle. Don't get too greedy with your OoS options, jabbing is the safest move, anything that has lag will get you shield grabed. The mortar DAC is easily stopped with Fsmashes or grabs so keep that in mind.
If you havn't noticed by now but Snake is **** hard to kill, sometimes it may feel like he's impossible to KO with overrated DI abilities. Save all your smashes till the end, Fsmash, Usmash, Dsmash, and any other strong attacks you feel comfortable with.
Gimping Snake is real easy if he's recovering under. Fairs, Bairs, Dairs, hell anything punishes Snake hard. When Snake's above it's not hard either. Just keep comboing him farther offstage, assuming he doesn't C4 recover.
Counterpick with RC. Snake won't be able to ground combat enough and the limited space messes up his DAC, mindgames, and grenades. Your aerial spam will be hell on him.
~Nasty~
Smash Lord
This is definitely a hard MU for lucas. Pick a secondary >.<
But 2 quick thoughts since everything else was mentioned already:
1) When trying to recover, if you aren't going for the zap jump or magnet pull and would rather go w/ PKT2 or tether, i suggest shooting a pk fire at the ledge bc snake will probably be there charging an Usmash. This will at least leave you in the clear for a few seconds to get to the ledge.
2) If a snake is recovering high (but not extremely high) you can Zap jump so that you are level w/ him and either Uair him or do my favorite, hold out the magnet over him until his invincibility frames are gone and release the magnet.. this should kill him.
EDIT: yeah i just thought of a few more things... if you are at a distance from snake and he's not throwing grenades at you.. he might try to mortar slide.. i feel that dsmash is your best option here.
Also be aware of where his 'nades are and where/when he drops his C4. 'Nades explode roughly within 5 seconds of pulling them out. C4 explodes on it's own roughly around 30 seconds of being placed. Snake's Dsmash will disappear after he dies.. if he doesn't die, idk how long it takes till it disappears. Just keep track of where it is or blow it up w/ a PK fire.
But 2 quick thoughts since everything else was mentioned already:
1) When trying to recover, if you aren't going for the zap jump or magnet pull and would rather go w/ PKT2 or tether, i suggest shooting a pk fire at the ledge bc snake will probably be there charging an Usmash. This will at least leave you in the clear for a few seconds to get to the ledge.
2) If a snake is recovering high (but not extremely high) you can Zap jump so that you are level w/ him and either Uair him or do my favorite, hold out the magnet over him until his invincibility frames are gone and release the magnet.. this should kill him.
EDIT: yeah i just thought of a few more things... if you are at a distance from snake and he's not throwing grenades at you.. he might try to mortar slide.. i feel that dsmash is your best option here.
Also be aware of where his 'nades are and where/when he drops his C4. 'Nades explode roughly within 5 seconds of pulling them out. C4 explodes on it's own roughly around 30 seconds of being placed. Snake's Dsmash will disappear after he dies.. if he doesn't die, idk how long it takes till it disappears. Just keep track of where it is or blow it up w/ a PK fire.
prOAPC
Smash Lord
snake outcamp Lucas, you use nair, you get shield+granade'd, you use dair, you get utilt'd
i hate this MU
best way to knock him from his upB would be bair, but at low %, i like to rack damage first with PKT
abuse your jab and ftilt
i hate this MU
best way to knock him from his upB would be bair, but at low %, i like to rack damage first with PKT
abuse your jab and ftilt
rPSIvysaur
[ɑɹsaɪ]
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His C4 last for 27 seconds, his D-smash last for 24 seconds, his nades last for 4 seconds...
If he decides to use his C4 offensively, he is limited in his recovery. However, using PKT when a C4 on the stage is not a good idea at all. If he has his C4 on the ground go after him in the air. If he decides to save his C4 for recovery, then you can usually PKT.
Lucas MU is a lulz fest for Snake though... anyone care to give ratios?
If he decides to use his C4 offensively, he is limited in his recovery. However, using PKT when a C4 on the stage is not a good idea at all. If he has his C4 on the ground go after him in the air. If he decides to save his C4 for recovery, then you can usually PKT.
Lucas MU is a lulz fest for Snake though... anyone care to give ratios?
~Nasty~
Smash Lord
Yeah, i was too lazy to go look that info up
Ratio: can i get a 40:60 or 35:65 Snake
ChaosTheoryX
Smash Lord
35:65 snake, I would talk about this matchup, but would get banned 4 life shortly afterwards due to potty mouth =P
........
**** this matchup
........
**** this matchup
rPSIvysaur
[ɑɹsaɪ]
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Ok, lets start the Snake stage discussion
Rachmaninav89
Smash Apprentice
Yea I just played a few matchups with my friend who plays snake. Im at that point where I just second it now. This matchup royally sucks all it takes is 100% and a grab. oh and brinstar works well for snake, but its better than nothing. Ban halberd.
Tokaio
Smash Journeyman
Do not CP Brinstar against Snake. The small blastzones are deadly.
ChaosTheoryX
Smash Lord
your best options are big stages that make it easy to get/stay away from all the pretty explosions and that have big blast zones for living longer =)
Id have to say some good stages would be FD and Jungle Japes (kinda hard to see nades and such so be careful on this one),cant really think of others off the top of my head.
Id have to say some good stages would be FD and Jungle Japes (kinda hard to see nades and such so be careful on this one),cant really think of others off the top of my head.
rPSIvysaur
[ɑɹsaɪ]
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So
Counterpick: Jungle Japes, Rainbow Cruise
Stagestrike: Lylat Cruise, ??
Ban: Halberd, ??
Counterpick: Jungle Japes, Rainbow Cruise
Stagestrike: Lylat Cruise, ??
Ban: Halberd, ??
ChaosTheoryX
Smash Lord
yes, this is th other stage I forgot to mention (dont know how I could have forgot) <3 norfair
rPSIvysaur
[ɑɹsaɪ]
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I'm getting some mixed responses about Norfair, I'm not sure if I should include it... but I need stagestrikes and bans
Tokaio
Smash Journeyman
I don't think you should counterpick it or ban it. Although the little platforms can prevent Grab Release -> Tilts, his D-throw tech chase is good here. His tilts, especially his U-tlit -_-, cover a whole lot of the platform. Also, he can grenade camp pretty well on this stage. He can throw far, and stop his grenades in mid-air. If the side wall comes, it limits your space, and you might end up eating a C4 in the face. It's a good stage for both us. So don't counterpick it nor ban it.
Snake doesn't have any bad neutrals at all. Strike Lucas' worst neutrals (i.e. Lylat + Yoshi's) If he strikes one of those, my guess is to strike Smashville. He can plant C4's on the moving platform, and I believe it should hit you if you're below it.
Just ban anything with small blastzones, except Brinstar.
Snake doesn't have any bad neutrals at all. Strike Lucas' worst neutrals (i.e. Lylat + Yoshi's) If he strikes one of those, my guess is to strike Smashville. He can plant C4's on the moving platform, and I believe it should hit you if you're below it.
Just ban anything with small blastzones, except Brinstar.
ZMan
Smash Master
i like delfino against snake. no reason in particular, i just like it.
ChaosTheoryX
Smash Lord
I've actually found that delfino is really good for snakes (as in they can do some stupid **** on it)
~Nasty~
Smash Lord
isn't snake more dangerous on BF than on SV? i'd much rather strike BF because he has more platforms to plant C4's and Dsmash's on; and i'm not entirely sure but aren't the blast zones relatively small here? I'd strike Lylat and BF b/c i'm sure they wouldn't want to go to Yoshi's and it's easier to dodge C4's when there is only one platform you have to look out for (i.e. SV and Yoshi's). Just my opinion though.
rPSIvysaur
[ɑɹsaɪ]
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So how about
Counterpick: Jungle Japes, Rainbow Cruise
Stagestrike: Lylat, Battlefield
Ban: Halberd, anywhere with small blast zones?
Counterpick: Jungle Japes, Rainbow Cruise
Stagestrike: Lylat, Battlefield
Ban: Halberd, anywhere with small blast zones?
Rachmaninav89
Smash Apprentice
That sounds good. I mean if you watch Ally play on Halberd, it's like a given win for him. there's a lot you can do, especially with grenade bouncing and what not. I played my friend on that stage, and it's just like jungle japes for falco. If you find yourself having to ban a stage, I would just do Halberd, the snake probably won't pick brinstar, because all though it's good for snake, it can be good for lucas as well regardless of small blast zones. Also a snake main will probably want a stage where he does have the advantage. Lylat and battlefield definitely stage strike, and as long as you watch yourself on smashville, because the moving platform can be deadly with c4, it's ok haha.
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Snake really doesn't have any bad stages. He can adapt to RC. he can be a camp ***** on Japes. If anything, I would counterpick against Lucas to Halberd. The place you want to go first game vs Snake is Yoshi's island(brawl.) Then you can try to mind game him by saying castle siege. :D
ZMan
Smash Master
when cping against snake just choose what you feel the most comfirtable on.
for me, i would choose either brinstar, nofair, japes, maybe delfino, maybe picto.
bans- halberd. i get owned here
for me, i would choose either brinstar, nofair, japes, maybe delfino, maybe picto.
bans- halberd. i get owned here
Ono
Smash Cadet
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Stage Strike: Lylat, BF
Battlefield is a better stage for Snake. There's more platforms, which means easier vertical kills, and easier U-tilt landings. Also, there's a D-throw tech chase, that Snake can't do really well on SV, beacuse of the moving platforms.
Counterpick: JJ, RC
Jungle Japes is your best bet imo. Larger blastzones. You'll have to deal with his grenade camping though. If the Snake bans JJ, just go RC. It's a bad stage for him
Ban: Halberd
Yeah, this is too good of a stage for Snake. Low ceiling for early kills, and he can grenade bounce on the slanted part for some mindgames. The flat part is too good for camping.
Battlefield is a better stage for Snake. There's more platforms, which means easier vertical kills, and easier U-tilt landings. Also, there's a D-throw tech chase, that Snake can't do really well on SV, beacuse of the moving platforms.
Counterpick: JJ, RC
Jungle Japes is your best bet imo. Larger blastzones. You'll have to deal with his grenade camping though. If the Snake bans JJ, just go RC. It's a bad stage for him
Ban: Halberd
Yeah, this is too good of a stage for Snake. Low ceiling for early kills, and he can grenade bounce on the slanted part for some mindgames. The flat part is too good for camping.
rPSIvysaur
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from what I hear about Halberd, I'll make it a single ban like RC for Meta, I'll put it up real quick...
I'm probably going to wrap Snake up tomorrow, so any last words?
Now!
I'm probably going to wrap Snake up tomorrow, so any last words?
Now!
ChaosTheoryX
Smash Lord
I tell Lucas this everytime I play against the snakes in my crew =P
rPSIvysaur
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It's finished now!
So now to the most anticipated MU yet, G&W! Will our community uphold the tradition of keeping him as the easiest counterpick against Lucas or will a revolution occur and change the MU forever? All will be revealed in Tyr's next post!
BTW, Videos for this are a must have, IDC if you don't have them, MAKE THEM!!!
So now to the most anticipated MU yet, G&W! Will our community uphold the tradition of keeping him as the easiest counterpick against Lucas or will a revolution occur and change the MU forever? All will be revealed in Tyr's next post!
BTW, Videos for this are a must have, IDC if you don't have them, MAKE THEM!!!