The Lucas Boards' MU Thread - Discussing: Sonic

[rPSIvysaur]

yeah, I was trying to debate it in my head... any other idea's for bans?

 

[Rachmaninav89]

Agreed with ono. I mean yea there are close blast zones, but over all it aint a terrible level to bring metaknight. I mean just **** rainbow cruise, any other level is better than that haha.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Ok, I think I'll just stick with just Rainbow Cruise, you probably shouldn't ban anything else or you'll end up at Rainbow I'm guessing...

Also, can someone help with the percent of D-air to D-tilt locks? I'm just to lazy right now.

 

[Tokaio]

Dair -> Dtilt he must be at 64% when you start the Dair.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Any final words before we start Pit (teh spam king)

 

[Rachmaninav89]

Just don't approach metaknight when he's off the edge. and as long as you keep your distance and know when to punish you'll be fine. don't know if that was said yet. haha

 

[Chuee]

Ok start Pit now.

 

[ZMan]

i fight pits all the time (not really good ones, but pits non the less). but its fairly easy. magnet arrows if he's spammy, zap jump to recover, mirror and arrows ***** pkt2 hard. nair > utilt combo him when you can, jab is good, pkt his recovery if you can.

i say this matchup is even. but this is only off of personal experience.

i hate writing matchup summaries because i never think when im playing

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Woah!!! I still have to write up the Metaknight... can you hold off for just a bit

 

[Sinz]

i fight pits all the time (not really good ones, but pits non the less). but its fairly easy. magnet arrows if he's spammy, zap jump to recover, mirror and arrows ***** pkt2 hard. nair > utilt combo him when you can, jab is good, pkt his recovery if you can.

i say this matchup is even. but this is only off of personal experience.

i hate writing matchup summaries because i never think when im playing

Er, Auto pilot is not the way to play Zack. once you get in full control of your mind for brawl, and match your auto pilot speed with the speed of your evaluation of stage control, your pressure control, your zoning, and your opponents choices. then you will jump up a few levels in your skill.

THIS POST GOES FOR EVERY PLAYER IN EVERY GAME.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Ok, you can start Pit

 

[Chuee]

If we hit Pit while he's using his up-b is he able to use it again?

 

[Tokaio]

Pit is a pain to play against. His arrows are so annoying...but luckily, we can somewhat nullify it with our PSI magnet. Force him to use his Up-B, and then just knock him out of it, and he should die if you don't knock him out at the beginning.

Stage strike FD. Arrow spams. In the Counterpicking Made Easy thread, it says that Lylat Cruise is a good stage for him? So, I would stage strike it since it's a good stage for him, and the tilting messes us up. Counterpick Brinstar because the arrows can block the pillars, and it gives him less space, and PS1. Ban Rainbow Cruise?

EDIT: 50:50 I think. And you forgot to change the title of the thread

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Well first of all, from my experience, we basically nullify each other's projecitles. If he uses arrows, we PSI magnet. If we use PKF we get an arrow in the face or reflected. I assume that we can gimp his recovery the same way with metaknights? So now that we can stop his spam, we force him to approach. My question for you guys is: How do we punish his approaches?

And you forgot to change the title of the thread

I'm only man

 

[lil cj]

Well first of all, from my experience, we basically nullify each other's projecitles. If he uses arrows, we PSI magnet. If we use PKF we get an arrow in the face or reflected. I assume that we can gimp his recovery the same way with metaknights? So now that we can stop his spam, we force him to approach. My question for you guys is: How do we punish his approaches?

I used to main Pit...
Pit is a long range fighter,he doesnt approach.He forces the opponent to approach so we dont have worry him approaching. He will arrow spam and stay on the ledge. Also, his approaches suck, all he has is probably nair and dash attack.

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

um, why would you strike FD against pit? its a big stage with no platforms so he would want to spam against you (if he was stupid) but *INTERUPT*

THIS JUST IN!!!! psi magnet can now absorb energy projectiles!!!!!.......

ya, a spammy pit makes it easy for lucas. Our magnet forces pit to approach, and his options there are a bit slim, and nothing lucas can't handle

if you are off the stage, and he is near the edge, try your hardest to recover using zap-jump/tether/wavebounce because the shield will destroy you, in my experience if all other options other than pk thunder are used up (or impossible) shoot lucas as straight up as possible and try to float to the ledge/stage. If you shoot lucas straight up, even if pit lands the shield, you're still going to be going straight up pretty much, and can then float over to the stage or ledge

Can't really say too much more, but I'd say the matchup is an even 50-50

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Pit has a slight advantage here.

on paper this seems easy, but it's not. Pit can *Gasp* gimp us; the way it happens is so stupid. pretty much every option loses to pit offstage. Arrows > Magnet. It's just like Falco's lasers; we'll just keep hokding out the magnet and gain no horizontal distance. Then once we get low and decide to DJ, we get arrowed, forced to use PKT2 -> Mirror shield -> GG. Also, gimping him is different than gimping MK, because... Pit has a projectile. On stage his GR stuff *****. His range and disjointed hitboxes are stupid. He just can't approach for crap. It's quite a frustrating match-up. Not all that hard, but frustrating.

 

[~Nasty~]

Idk, i play two pretty good pits in my state (both PRed). and they are quick. One of the things to look out for is when you are at 0%.. pit can grab > fthrow > small step > fsmash for what? 30%!!! be aware of that and DI away from him. Another combo is dthrow > Uair.. just get out of the way. lol

Magnet pull/zap jumping is lucas' best options for recovery which has been stated. Striking FD? i don't think so. i'd much rather go here or SV for the first match. I'd ban NORFAIR if it's legal. Have you seen a pit play here? insane camping. CP PS1, Brinstar, or even FD if you're comfortable w/ it. Also, Yoshi's Island (brawl) i guess would be a good stage bc pit can't fly under it but i hate that stage for lucas.

on the note about lylat, if you end up at this stage a lot of the times pit will camp the ledge and jump under the stage to Uair you through it.. Just Dsmash and it'll spike him straight down for an easy KO.

As for a ratio: 50/50 or MAYBE 55/45 in favor of pit bc of ledge camping and gimping.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I'd say 45/55 his favor too... because he's too good when we're off stage and we can magnet his projectiles on stage

However, when I get a recording device, I have to post this one epic match moment. I hit a Pit to his death after losing my second jump and was falling to my death with him because I was under the stage, then I footstooled him.

 

[Rachmaninav89]

Ask if any pits mains will help too in this thread i suppose?

 

[Tyr_03]

Pit is annoying as ****. He should be banned along with Diddy for making this game stupid.

 

[~Nasty~]

lol @ tyr...

and i can see if my buddy Smurf can offer his help bc we play each other all the time and he's a part of the Pit Back Room so he knows what he's talking about.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

At Tyr: Wait untill we're finished with the MU, other wise they might not want to help us... after we're finished w/ the general MU then you can insult

Back to MU!

 

[Chuee]

I wouldn't ban norfair. It's great against campy characters like pit because it forces them to approach since we can just hold down B until they try approaching. Approaching on norfair for some characters isn't very easy.

50-50 or 55-45
I'm not seeing how pit gimps our DJ. His arrows can't go that far downwards. We can also do stuff to pit's recovery. PKT > jumps, PKT > glide, & PKT > Wings (unless he goes under the stage.)

 

[rPSIvysaur]

PKT < Jumps actually, you'll get an arrow in your face

 

[Chuee]

PKT < Jumps actually, you'll get an arrow in your face

Oh yeah =/

 

[~Nasty~]

I wouldn't ban norfair. It's great against campy characters like pit because it forces them to approach since we can just hold down B until they try approaching. Approaching on norfair for some characters isn't very easy.

50-50 or 55-45
I'm not seeing how pit gimps our DJ. His arrows can't go that far downwards. We can also do stuff to pit's recovery. PKT > jumps, PKT > glide, & PKT > Wings (unless he goes under the stage.)

Can't gimp our DJ? do u know what wing cancelling is? he'll just wing cancel off the stage to you and attack out of it and then still have another upB to recover. Also, arrows can go vertical by looping them around. Good pits have good aim. And if they main pit, they better have good aim. Also, retreating Fairs by pit is pretty good, i'd say just PKF at them. And i talked w/ Smurf a little about this matchup, he says that arrows can be used as a huge mind game so standing there w/ the magnet up all day isn't going to do much. He also said that he doesn't see it 50-50 rather he sees it closer to 60-40, but i'd say we can get away w/ a 55-45 his advantage. I also told him to get in here and post his thoughts so we shall see when he gets around to it... if ever

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

Also, arrows can go vertical by looping them around. Good pits have good aim. And if they main pit, they better have good aim. And i talked w/ Smurf a little about this matchup, he says that arrows can be used as a huge mind game so standing there w/ the magnet up all day isn't going to do much. He also said that he doesn't see it 50-50 rather he sees it closer to 60-40, but i'd say we can get away w/ a 55-45 his advantage. I also told him to get in here and post his thoughts so we shall see when he gets around to it... if ever

Mind Games have no place in match-up discussions, and there is no way the ratio is 60-40 pit's favor, I still stand by 50-50, but can see if it is put at 45-55 pit's favor

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I'll put up 45-55 pit's favor, we still need more MU stuff such as the ways to punish Pit's approaches and a list of what his viable approaches are

 

[Chuee]

I remember playing sagemoon on lag-fi awhile ago. Pi really can't gimp you if you DI upwards.
Magnet Pull > Arrows. Also approaching with fairs don't work on lucas. He's too short.
I'd say pits only viable approaches against lucas would be Nair & Dair.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

if we see him approach with a N-air, how should we punish... same with D-air?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

... one at time!

Anyway, let's start stage discussion

 

[orange/xd]

I usually CP Brinstar for Pit

 

[Levitas]

I usually CP Brinstar for Pit

Yeah, but does it work?

 

[Admiral Pit]

It seems that many Pits are lacking to support others. I guess I will do this based on my experience.
Okay idk much about this because Lucas isn't a common target, but let's have a look.



Pit and Lucas have some similar ranges, though Lucas would have a bit more range and power, but Pit is a bit faster.

Lucas' PK fire spacing could be beaten by an Angel Ring, or by an arrow being angled from above the PK fire.
I am aware that Lucas has that D-throw to U-tilt at the beginning of an opponent's stock. Pit's variation of this is F-throw to Stutterstep Fsmash, max damage being 30% depending on how stale the moves are. This doesn't work on all characters though, while your trick does, but Pit's method will certainly make up for the fact that Pit can't F-throw Chaingrab you.
__________________________________
As far as edgeguarding and gimping goes, Lucas to Pit, Lucas has that PKT that is annoying. However, keep in mind that a Pit can shoot arrows as he comes close which could mess you up, or he could try to reflect them, if he doesn't decide to glide, which is usually bad. Pit hates getting spiked since he has quite a bit of hitstun from them, and his Up-B won't cancel any knockback momentum. Try to force Pit into Up-B, and get him with the PKT if you can. PK fire can help against bad gliding, and your F-air has good range, so it should help too.
Keep in mind that Pit can glide under some stages to avoid some trouble.

For gimping, Pit to Lucas, Pit may have problems at first, sometimes, but he still has his basics arrows. You can magnet some of them but not all.
Against your Magnet pull thing (PK fire to Magnet), Pit can either try to shoot an arrow before the magnet comes out, or try to predict where you end up and strike there. Angel Ring does somewhat good at this part if you fly into it.
Against Zap Jump, Pit really can't do anything but wait til you come down, and even though he can still try to arrow you, you would have enough reaction time to just avoid them.
Against your PKT recovery, Pit has different options for it.

1: Pursue with an aerial
This can be common with some Pits.

2: Stay at a distance and shoot an arrow at you
This is also common sometimes. A Pit can keep shooting arrows at you til you are either out of Pit's shooting range, or til you far enough so Pit can prepare to either try to edgehog you or Mirror Shield you, depends on the distance between Lucas and Pit, and such,

3: Mirror Shield you after the PKT hits you
Like some other character recoveries (like Ike's), Pit can Mirror Shield them to gimp them and KO them. It isn't as risky as doing it on a Ness since mistiming it on a Ness, well, you know, since it's a powerful impact.
The Thing with Lucas is that after the PKT impact thing, he can move somewhat fast in the air in his helpless state, unlike Ness, which could give Lucas a chance to make it back, but Pit could try to edgehog him at will.

4: Use Up-B near you
Remember that Pit's up-b has a windpush effect that surrounds Pit in all directions. If he uses Up-B near you, you will move and it can mess up with you being able to recover. It could send you in a direction that you don't want to go, or could totally kill you. Death is not guaranteed, though.

5: Shoot an arrow at your PKT directly.
If a Pit shoots the ball part of the PKT with an arrow, the PKT is destroyed, and you might as well say goodbye after that. Let's hope the Pit you are facing isn't a sniper >_< (I did knock some PKTs out before)

6: Edgehog
Self-explanitory, but really only works if you are far away that your PKT won't reach the platform itself. In combination with other tactics, this could also work.

7: Wait patiently
Some Pits may rather wait to see where you will end up, and then try to attack, or edgehog if applicable.

Don't forget to use your tether recovery which can help you out quite a bit, and keep the Pit guessing a bit more.
__________________________________
As far as stages go, I would think we do well at Battlefield and Lylat.
Battlefield has those platforms that contribute to our U-air, and we can fly under the stage.
At Lylat, apply just about all of BF's benefits for Pit here, and add Lylat's tilting stage contributing to messing up some PK fire and such, and messing up your recovery just a bit.

As a Pit, Brinstar is annoying. Those pillar things block Pit's arrows and your PKT can go through them, and at the same time, the blast boundaries from this stage are so small that Lucas can KO Pit quickly, and Pit's recovering methods really won't help here. This also means Lucas can recover much better here.
On YI, Pit's arrows can be blocked by shy guys, and Pit's recovery options are more limited, more so he can't glide under the stage.

I would go Pit being just about even with Lucas, maybe slightly Pit's advantage 45/55 with his ton of edgeguarding options.

Oh yea, another thing. Pit is very good at his edge and ledge game. He can camp well compared to many other chars, shooting arrows from long range, throwing out F-airs and B-airs to nearby opponents, U-air too in some attempts to knock u off the stage. Your Dsmash would be annoying, however, with its 3 boxes and underestimated range. Try using it sometimes against a reckless ledge Pit. You might hit him.

I would like to play a Lucas again sometime for more experience.
Also, I may post a Pit vs Lucas matchup thread in the Pit area soon. I will notify you when I do.

 

[Ono]

Stage Strike: Lylat, ?? I don't think we should strike BF...it's our best neutral. Probably Yoshi's...but the pit would strike that most likely.

Counterpick: Brinstar, PS1

Ban: Lylat, RC?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I'd think to strike FD, but then again, he can't really camp us...
So, strike Lylat, Yoshi's, and/or FD?
Counterpick: Brinstar, PS1
Ban: Lylat, Rainbow Cruise

What do you guys think?

Edit: I'm going to wrap Pit up soon, any final words?

 

[Levitas]

yeah. stickied for great justice.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

New character Snake!
Discuss:

Edit: Thanks for the sticky, I feel special now

 

[Tokaio]

Snake scares me ._. His tilts are sick. Watch out for his U-tilt especially..it has sick range. You should PKF alot if he starts to pull out grenades alot. It should explode them. Watch out for his U-smash edgeguarding when you're on the edge. Definitely try going for the spike...he'll be forced to recover from the bottom, and if he's close to the ledge when he Up-B's, just grab him and let him fall. Although many Snake's don't get caught doing that =/. Nair eats away at Snake, so use it alot. Try going for double Dairs too. It racks up like 40% when fresh.

StageStrike: Snake doesn't have any bad neutrals at all. So, my guess is to just strike the regular Yoshi's/Lylat.

CP: JJ. He can't grenade camp here as well. And his U-tilt rarely kills on this stage.
RC
Norfair? The only thing bad is his D-throw tech chase.

Bans: Halberd? Although it's a good stage for us, it has a low ceiling, and he can camp here really well.
Green Greens? The low blastzones are deadly.

40:60