The Lucas Boards' MU Thread - Discussing: Sonic

[Tokaio]

We need to go over falco next.....

We have too many disagreements with G&W. So, I think it'd be better if we did him next.

I would say:

Stage Strike: Battlefield, Yoshi's/Lylat
Counterpick: Brinstar, Jungle Japes
Bans: Delfino, Battlefield

?

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Wait till he swings his sword, then hit him.
Works every time.

Lol it's not that simple though XD.

 

[Chuee]

We have too many disagreements with G&W. So, I think it'd be better if we did him next.

This
10this

 

[lil cj]

We need more Marth mains in here
to finish up Lucas' worst MU

 

[rPSIvysaur]

We can rediscus later because wo whould learn how to deal with common characters instead of just our counters, because it's pointless to discuss how much we're ***** IMO. So I'll contact a Falco main to help us out with the Falco MU.

 

[CRASHiC]

Lol it's not that simple though XD.

Its the strategy fiction uses.

I believe his words were something like,

DSF taught me how to fight marths, he said wait till they swing their swords, then hit them. It sounds stupid as hell, but it works!

Keep your distance, then move in with a couple fairs or down airs and gtfo.
Restart.

 

[themrskills]

So, moving on to Falco huh? This matchup is so much more comfortable than marth.
Advantages: He can't long range spam us, so he has to move in(wait is that good?)
His recovery=uber predictable, calling for bair/dair spikes. If he aims for ledge, dmash
This may just be me, but I can hit his Phantasm attack with Dair every time. I don't know if any of you could tell me why...
Disadvantages: We can't PKF spam.
Falco has a chaingrab.

I'd give this match a 55-45 for Falco, mostly cause Falco is an arrogant SOB.

 

[lil cj]

This matchup is not difficult just annoying.
Both can make the other change their playstyle
Psi Magent > Laser
PK Fire < Reflector
Even though we can absorb Falco's lasers that doesnt mean
we wont get a few hits from a laser or two, their too fast and will sometimes hit us before
we can put up our psi magnet.
Same thing applies to Falco, we can probably do a surprise PK fire before he can react with his reflector, but by all means dont spam it, use sparingly.
Like the Marth matchup an advantage we have in this MU is gimping
PKT1,dair,and bair everytime he's off stage and try to get him below the stage
so he cant phantasm and be forced to use his up b which sucks anyway.
Yes, he can CG Lucas across the stage and dair spike him, but Lucas can survive the spike
better than most characters due to his good recovery options(zap jump works good here).

55-45 in Falco's favor
Not too bad for us

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

One thing I noticed is that people seem to forget that Falco has a really good bair, that can beat our dair. He also has an insane jab, and jab game. his dair is really good onstage and offstage; It's hard to shield grab it with Lucas.

I think it's a slight disadvantage.

 

[Tokaio]

I hate Flaco. He's so annoying -.- Basically everything themrskills said. We can absorb his lazders so he can't be too campy. Well, we can sorta PKF spam. Just don't get too predictable with it, and try to bait him into using his reflector and move in and punish. Moar Dair -> Dtilt locks. Initiate the Dair at 65%, he'll end up at 85%

 

[themrskills]

One thing I noticed is that people seem to forget that Falco has a really good bair, that can beat our dair. He also has an insane jab, and jab game. his dair is really good onstage and offstage; It's hard to shield grab it with Lucas.

I think it's a slight disadvantage.

Hey, while we're on the subject, could you clarify something for me? I seem to recall reading somewhere that no one can shield grab falco during his jabs because of the hitbox on the third jab. Is this true?

 

[ZMan]

falco. if he spams PEW-PEW than magnet that ****. idk it seems even in my eyes, but i haven't foughten a good falco ins a while. so ill stay quiet on this one.

 

[orange/xd]

I have also been gimped by a Falco's reflector. Also, his Dair can stop PKT. Probably a slight disadvantage, maybe 55:45.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Hey, while we're on the subject, could you clarify something for me? I seem to recall reading somewhere that no one can shield grab falco during his jabs because of the hitbox on the third jab. Is this true?

Oh believe me, falco's jab is shieldgrab-able.

I'm not known to the matchup but I can help in the form of helping with Falco's capabilities.

 

[Rachmaninav89]

It's just patience with falco and focusing on not getting grabbed. his lazer has a lot of stun and if it hits alot it can be annoying as hell and frustrating, but if you know to use the magnet then you can by pass that, but be careful because he can easily confront you while you deal with the lag from your magnet after absorbing. Slight advantage because of his chaingrab. It's just frustrating. I played one and as long as you just attack when you should youll be fine. Not terrible. and watch for his spike, it can cancel your pk thunder, so make sure you have a bit of distance before using it, cuz that's an easy gimp for him. And if you do get spiked, after being chaingrabbed, make sure you are good at aiming with pk thunder haha. and you can nair his side b. if timed right.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Its the strategy fiction uses.

I believe his words were something like,

DSF taught me how to fight marths, he said wait till they swing their swords, then hit them. It sounds stupid as hell, but it works!

Keep your distance, then move in with a couple fairs or down airs and gtfo.
Restart.

Lol but I mean, that strategy is pretty much what spacing is. And spacing isn't too easy to perfect or do consistently. And Lucas can't do that as well (or even at all) since his range is much shorter than Marth's.

 

[themrskills]

I'd say all in all Falco is a 55-45. The MU isn't bad, but Falco has a slight advantage with his ability to gimp with reflector or dair. Assuming you only recover with pkt2, which you shouldn't. Even then he still has a slight advantage. As for stages, you want something like battlefield or smashville, where there are levels so to avoid the grab. Definitely strike FD.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Yeah, you should only get reflector gimped, if you recovery like a ****** and advertise your self to get gimped... Tether is nice

 

[lil cj]

Ban Japes...
thats Falco's playground

 

[Denzi]

Well this was posted by Tyr_03 during our discussion of the matchup:

I usually try to edgeguard with PKT1 in a looping fashion so that you can phantasm into it and take the damage or phantasm above and land behind me into a PKT2. If I predict you're going to phantasm high up ahead of time I'll have an Usmash ready.

Fullhop Dair autocancels into multiple combos at lower percentages. Around 90% or so it combos into a Dtilt lock to Usmash or Fsmash for a kill. You can tech it if you have the timing right though (but almost no one does.) You can hit through Lucas's Dair with Uair well spaced from below as well as Bair and Fair from the sides.

The CG is annoying because it does a lot of damage but it's not that hard to recover from the spike. It's not a lost stock at all.

Well spaced PK Fires won't be reflected far enough to hit Lucas. Lucas's PK Fire is weird compared to other projectiles because it doesn't gain distance when it's reflected. You're usually better off just power shielding it.

We can absorb lasers but it's pretty dangerous for us to do that at mid and close range because you don't have lag after you shoot so it only means you can't camp, it doesn't mean lasers are useless.

I think it's 60-40 in Falco's favor as well. It's a pretty annoying matchup for me.

Hope that helps!

And:

- Lucas's Uair beats Falco's Dair when spaced correctly.
-Dair combos under 90% are TRUE COMBOS. You can shield but it won't do you any good unless he messes up.
-In the air, Lucas generally wins when he is above and to the side. If you're parallel with him you'll always win with Bair and if you are directly underneath you can win with Uair if you space and time well.


Also, Lucas's jab comes out in 2 frames. Be aware.

Hope that helps. I myself am not familiar with the Matchup, but if there's ever any question of what Falco can do, I can help out there.

 

[HailCrest]

I heard somewhere that Uair beats everything falco's got when properly spaced because of the weird hitbox behind him.

Does reflector reflect pk freeze's trajectory before it explodes?

 

[clowsui]

i've played this matchup a LOT with tyr...it's 60-40 in falco's favor

i'd post more but i'm doing hw : ( i know this kind of evaluation is cheap but if i have time i'll expound upon it

 

[lil cj]

i've played this matchup a LOT with tyr...it's 60-40 in falco's favor

i'd post more but i'm doing hw : ( i know this kind of evaluation is cheap but if i have time i'll expound upon it

Its no way its 60-40
This is one of his easiest matchups in the S tiers besides D3

But I'll wait for the explaination

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Yeah, so I'm planning on doing a moveset comparison, so you can know what to do when... however I will only be able to do aerials on the weekends, so it looks like the info won't in sync with the discussion... oh well

 

[Levitas]

ratios are dumb, mostly because the ones we talk about lose a lot of meaning in top level play, which no lucas players can play at.

falco has a bit of an advantage, but at least we can kill him when he gets to a high percent. if you do it right, falco has a really hard time killing lucas.

 

[Noraa]

even though psi magnet>lazers

any good falco will just shdl towards you while the psi magnet is up tilll he gets close to just grab you....

so the whole "his laser game is pointless" is not even true.

just my 2 cents.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

i've played this matchup a LOT with tyr...it's 60-40 in falco's favor

i'd post more but i'm doing hw : ( i know this kind of evaluation is cheap but if i have time i'll expound upon it

What he said >_>

Its no way its 60-40
This is one of his easiest matchups in the S tiers besides D3

But I'll wait for the explaination

Actually, if I were to give it a ratio, that would be it. Also DDD is alot harder than we originally thought.

Yeah, so I'm planning on doing a moveset comparison, so you can know what to do when... however I will only be able to do aerials on the weekends, so it looks like the info won't in sync with the discussion... oh well

errr... well I'll wait to see before I say anything.

ratios are dumb, mostly because the ones we talk about lose a lot of meaning in top level play, which no lucas players can play at.

falco has a bit of an advantage, but at least we can kill him when he gets to a high percent. if you do it right, falco has a really hard time killing lucas.

This. Levi makes some of the best posts, and he's not even good with Lucas. (No offense)

even though psi magnet>lazers

any good falco will just shdl towards you while the psi magnet is up tilll he gets close to just grab you....

so the whole "his laser game is pointless" is not even true.

just my 2 cents.

lrn2magnetcancel

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I think magnet does you more harm then good, and helps falco setup ****.
A smart falco will get those lasers in between your head, especially if you focus on magnet.

 

[Levitas]

none taken, PF, it's true lol

On the other hand, I'll still beat 95% of people who think of themselves as "good at brawl"

such is life

 

[HAGGS]

1 quick thing, when vs. a Falco, recover low. This will completely negate his attempts to spike you. If he, for some reason decides to jump out with you, he will not be able to recover.

 

[Noraa]

wtf is magnet cancel?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

*face palm*
It's when you asorb an energy projectile and then crouch or jump out of magnet to reduce magnet lag...

 

[Uffe]

So then Lucas does have lag cancel out of PSI Magnet. I never knew that.

 

[loki15]

Recovering low is great advice. When trying to gimp, especially at higher percentages , Falco's sideB does meteor, which is something to watch out for. I think Falco's reflector is being a little overrated. Compared to Fox and Wolf, it's not great.

Falco's vertical recovery is really weak, as was mentioned earlier. As long as he can't phantasm, Lucas is in a very good position.

Does anyone know if Lucas's fair stops phantasm? I know that aerial priority is weird.

And iirc as long as you don't jump immediately after being cged off the stage, the cg->spike combo will miss.

Approaching is probably going to be the hardest thing in this match-up. Lucas has pretty good airspeed, and extended aerial hitboxes, which helps a lot, not to mention projectiles. If a Falco is shdl'ing, they're probably not worrying to much about reflector.

All I can think of at the moment...

 

[Uffe]

Falco shouldn't be 60:40. I can't imagine him being that difficult for Lucas. Maybe 55:45, but nothing higher or even lower than that. Loki, chances are your fair can stop Falco's Phantasm. You're probably better off using nair, though. At least then you don't really have to aim.

 

[Rachmaninav89]

As soon as you reach around 40% and the chaingrab is no longer effective, it's harder for falco to kill lucas. So avoid getting grabbed and if you do try and make it close to the middle of the level haha.

 

[themrskills]

I think Lucas may actually have a slight advantage to the matchup, now that I really think about it. If Falco is recovering high with Phantasm, any decent lucas can set up a usmash for the kill. If he's recovering low, dair or bair can get the spike, or dsmash on the ledge takes it as well. I love predictable recoveries

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

As soon as you reach around 40% and the chaingrab is no longer effective, it's harder for falco to kill lucas. So avoid getting grabbed and if you do try and make it close to the middle of the level haha.

Staying in the middle is only necessary if you're in CG % range btw.

I think Lucas may actually have a slight advantage to the matchup, now that I really think about it. If Falco is recovering high with Phantasm, any decent lucas can set up a usmash for the kill. If he's recovering low, dair or bair can get the spike, or dsmash on the ledge takes it as well. I love predictable recoveries

Ya because every character that can gimp falco has a slight advantage on him.

 

[Rachmaninav89]

yea i was just saying for chaingrab percents haha

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Since we force him to approach us, how can we punish his approaches?

Edit: We'll talk about this after we finish with stages