The Lucario "whatever" thread

[The Halloween Captain]

We really needed one of these. The topic is simple - if there is something you want to say about Lucario, such as techniques, matchups, how he plays, or even why he's a great character, you can post it here. This is pretty much general discussion, so the topic is determined by "whatever" we want to discuss about Lucario.

 

[phi1ny3]

He has fiery aerials.
Oh, and I smell subtle attempt to create spam (not going to stop it tho, let's get it going while talking about metagame, so that they can't ban it, har har).

 

[TK Wolf]

No offense intended, but "whatever" topics are too disorganized to find specific info. I think it's fine to have separate threads for separate things. All recent threads stay on page 1, so it's really not an issue...

 

[rocker1356]

I use Lucario as a secondary and I find him hard to control. I love how he can practically hold onto a wall which is very helpful. I do not use him enough to say really anything else.

 

[Blooqkazoo]

Why so serious?

 

[Rh1thmz]

I'm trying to pick up Lucario as a main replacement for MK (banning my main isn't any fun, even if it's for the good of the metagame...=\ ). I've found it easy to combo with Lucario, but I find it hard at times to get the ball rolling, if you know what I mean...it's a combination of being too predictable and not knowing good approaches. Basically, I was wondering what all of Lucario's solid approaching options are and why they are solid, since my approaching game seems to be quite weak right now. Also, any good variety that you guys put on your game could help me brainstorm some variety of my own.

Oh, and another question. Do you guys jab cancel your A-->A-->Force Palm Grab combos? I was wondering, since it doesn't seem to make much difference whether you do or not, but I find people escaping this sometimes when I do this combo. I'm just wondering if it's the fact that I don't jab cancel this combo that causes this, or if it's just me needing to learn the timing better =p

Thanks in advance for the replies, guys.

 

[TK Wolf]

The cancel doesn't add anything to a>a>FP. It's not a true combo, but if your opponent is a bit higher and closer than usual you can make it work sometimes.

 

[dguy6789]

Jab jab force palm can be escaped from if the opponent knows what they are doing, it is not a guaranteed setup.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

I'm trying to pick up Lucario as a main replacement for MK (banning my main isn't any fun, even if it's for the good of the metagame...=\ ). I've found it easy to combo with Lucario, but I find it hard at times to get the ball rolling, if you know what I mean...it's a combination of being too predictable and not knowing good approaches. Basically, I was wondering what all of Lucario's solid approaching options are and why they are solid, since my approaching game seems to be quite weak right now. Also, any good variety that you guys put on your game could help me brainstorm some variety of my own variety.

Oh, and another question. Do you guys jab cancel your A-->A-->Force Palm Grab combos? I was wondering, since it doesn't seem to make much difference whether you do or not, but I find people escaping this sometimes when I do this combo. I'm just wondering if it's the fact that I don't jab cancel this combo that causes this, or if it's just me needing to learn the timing better =p

Thanks in advance for the replies, guys.

Good for you to take an interest in Lucario. He's an amazing character. Read Infi-Tan's stickied guide. For help with approaches, read the "How to get up in their grill and cook their burgers with your blue flames" section. Watch is "Inner Fire" videos as well.

Fair > combos works well as an approach, as does Ftilting multiple times as you approach. Aura spheres can also give you an opportunity to strike while they jump, dodge, shield, etc.

 

[abit_rusty]

I've mained Snake since day one. Hell, I wrote two guides on him, both of which are on the Snake forums.

Then Snake got boring, and for some reason I took a liking to Sheik because of the combo ability and the challenge....problem: Sheik can't kill for ****. She was still fun to play as even though I often resorted to switching to Zelda for the kill. Somewhat cumbersome.

Then we did the Snake Vs. Lucario matchup on the Snake forums. I knew nothing about the matchup after long since retiring from competitive Brawl. I toyed with Lucario for a bit to see if I could learn anything.

Lo and behold, I took a liking to him. I like the fact that he can combo at low percents, but still have killing potential tenfold to that of Sheik, especially with Aura. I like how, with careful play, he has the element to turn any match around. Lucario is just too **** good. On the rare occasions that I play brawl nowadays, he's usually my pick.

That is all

 

[phi1ny3]

I'm trying to pick up Lucario as a main replacement for MK (banning my main isn't any fun, even if it's for the good of the metagame...=\ ). I've found it easy to combo with Lucario, but I find it hard at times to get the ball rolling, if you know what I mean...it's a combination of being too predictable and not knowing good approaches. Basically, I was wondering what all of Lucario's solid approaching options are and why they are solid, since my approaching game seems to be quite weak right now. Also, any good variety that you guys put on your game could help me brainstorm some variety of my own variety.

Oh, and another question. Do you guys jab cancel your A-->A-->Force Palm Grab combos? I was wondering, since it doesn't seem to make much difference whether you do or not, but I find people escaping this sometimes when I do this combo. I'm just wondering if it's the fact that I don't jab cancel this combo that causes this, or if it's just me needing to learn the timing better =p

Thanks in advance for the replies, guys.

Welcome. Yes, jab jab FP isn't fool proof, there's a video of Azen vs. M2K where this was consistently seen. Sometimes, u gotta mix it up with grab at the end, or even some others. FP seems to get weaker the more we develop Lucario's Metagame, which is sad.

 

[tedward2000]

Well, we only make it worse.

Im not sure, but... Perhaps FPG has more knockback then some of lucairo's other throws.
or use it as a shield. I'm interested in what things it can block, attack or projectile wise.

-t2
*And Im going retro this week. Original Avatar FTW.

 

[phi1ny3]

Well, we only make it worse.

Im not sure, but... Perhaps FPG has more knockback then some of lucairo's other throws.
or use it as a shield. I'm interested in what things it can block, attack or projectile wise.

-t2
*And Im going retro this week. Original Avatar FTW.

Ya, I use it at times to block TL arrows, it looks cool, like I opened a rift to suck the arrow out of existence.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Well, we only make it worse.

Im not sure, but... Perhaps FPG has more knockback then some of lucairo's other throws.
or use it as a shield. I'm interested in what things it can block, attack or projectile wise.

-t2
*And Im going retro this week. Original Avatar FTW.

A Force Palm grab at high aura levels is roughly on par with Ness's bthrow.

Yup.

 

[Browny]

at max aura level maybe...

its probably closer to squirtles dthrow for high %'s you will may live to (lets say 150 max)

 

[dguy6789]

at max aura level maybe...

its probably closer to squirtles dthrow for high %'s you will may live to (lets say 150 max)

Nope, force palm is significantly more powerful than any throw in the game aside from Ness' back throw. Doesn't need to be 170%, 130+ ish will work fine.

 

[phi1ny3]

Nope, force palm is significantly more powerful than any throw in the game aside from Ness' back throw. Doesn't need to be 170%, 130+ ish will work fine.

'Cept for damage, it's crazy at the high percents.

 

[Rh1thmz]

Another Luca question...hopefully, it's not too noobish =l

Anyways, when I find myself in a dodge/prediction war up close (aka the lots of shielding/rolling/grabbing kind of situation where MK's love to spam dsmash lol...hopefully, I'm not being too vague), I often find myself getting hit. My tiny arms have a hard time grabbing the opponent =\ What attacks/"mixups" (for the lack of a better term for variety) are good options in this situation? Or should I just roll far away and regain my composure?

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Lucario's rolls are the bomb, so that would be okay. Try jab. It's very long-ranged for a jab and you can FP grab them in place of the 3rd jab. Utilt hits BEHIND you first. Making it GREAT for situations where your opponent rolls behind you. From there you can juggle them with a few Utilts or grab them. Lucario's vertical grab reach is strangely long. (He can grab with his ears) Dtilt and Ftilt are just plain good.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Lucario's a pretty cool guy, eh eats chocolate and doesn't afraid of anything.

Why so serious?

This

 

[TK Wolf]

Another Luca question...hopefully, it's not too noobish =l

Anyways, when I find myself in a dodge/prediction war up close (aka the lots of shielding/rolling/grabbing kind of situation where MK's love to spam dsmash lol...hopefully, I'm not being too vague), I often find myself getting hit. My tiny arms have a hard time grabbing the opponent =\ What attacks/"mixups" (for the lack of a better term for variety) are good options in this situation? Or should I just roll far away and regain my composure?

Luc vs MK at close range isn't so hot. I mean, his dsmash comes out faster than ANY of Lucario's attacks. Best to be spaced out of range of his dsmash.

Sometimes if you predict a dsmash you can jump over and punish with dair. Generally though, you just can't punish the dsmash, unless you powershield it at close range and grab immediately after, but it's still not the best setup.

I'd suggest trying to stay a bit further away and land fsmash or aurasphere, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone with more MK experience has a better suggestion than that.

Lucario's rolls are the bomb, so that would be okay. Try jab. It's very long-ranged for a jab and you can FP grab them in place of the 3rd jab. Utilt hits BEHIND you first. Making it GREAT for situations where your opponent rolls behind you. From there you can juggle them with a few Utilts or grab them. Lucario's vertical grab reach is strangely long. (He can grab with his ears) Dtilt and Ftilt are just plain good.

Luc's jabs are great, but not against a dsmash-happy MK. Also, jab->jab->FP only works if the opponent is placed such that they land as you FP. It's not guaranteed, and it's usually safer to use a regular grab, or finish the jabs off. You really need to pay attention to where your opponent is after the 2nd jab and decide on the spot what the best action is.

And yeah, utilt is great. Practice doing a turned-around utilt. It's like a normal utilt but the control stick shifts just slightly away from the direction you face, so you hit with the backside first. I think the backside of utilt is Luc's fastest attack.

 

[Timbers]

It's really hard to outcamp MK. Fulljumped dairs ruin Luc's ground spacing. You're best off pocketing half/fullcharged auraspheres and baiting MK's approach/punishing with aurasphere. AS is your prime tool in this match, as it creates your only openings. Learn to implement it wisely.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

What happened to the Lucario chat room? *Cry*

 

[Trapt497]

erich, the chat room was a joke full of spam and should have been closed a long time before it was

this is what the chat room should have been. good idea, captain halloween. i just hope this doesn't turn into what the chat room was.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I hope it does..... :3


I find MK easier to play if you take the tank position. When you're attacking he can attack too OR be defensive. I was playing one as Sonic and just.....stood there. His options were...

1. Stand there
2. Running Grab
3. Shorthop aeiral
4 Dash Attack.
5. Tornado
6. Drill Rush
7. Dimensional Cape

My responses were
1. Still stand there
2. Jump and punish
3. Shield and punish (or if it was a retreating SHaerial I stood there)
4. Shield and punish
5. Shield and punish. (if he drifted away I just chased him down. You guys can't do that since your run speed is like... my walk speed but I hear AS is pretty neat.)
6. You have to be joking. Just... do whatever you want really.
7. Lulz. Punish.

IF you are REALLY paying attention you have JUST enough time to determine what he's doing. I basically stood at long/mid range and ripped into him. I got this to work JUST enough to do a match with Falcon where I still LOST but he was on his last life with mid damage.

MK seems to either tell you EXACTLY what he's going to do or if he DOESN'T do that his only option left is 1 other option. i.e. if he DOESN'T dash attack at a certain distance a dash grab is coming.

This stuff worked with SONIC I don't know quite how good Lucario is at punishing but I figure this could help a bit. It was still hard as hell but I went from getting 2 stocked to winning one, losing one and then losing with Falcon.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

erich, the chat room was a joke full of spam and should have been closed a long time before it was

this is what the chat room should have been. good idea, captain halloween. i just hope this doesn't turn into what the chat room was.

I hope it does..... :3


I find MK easier to play if you take the tank position. When you're attacking he can attack too OR be defensive. I was playing one as Sonic and just.....stood there. His options were...

1. Stand there
2. Running Grab
3. Shorthop aeiral
4 Dash Attack.
5. Tornado
6. Drill Rush
7. Dimensional Cape

My responses were
1. Still stand there
2. Jump and punish
3. Shield and punish (or if it was a retreating SHaerial I stood there)
4. Shield and punish
5. Shield and punish. (if he drifted away I just chased him down. You guys can't do that since your run speed is like... my walk speed but I hear AS is pretty neat.)
6. You have to be joking. Just... do whatever you want really.
7. Lulz. Punish.

IF you are REALLY paying attention you have JUST enough time to determine what he's doing. I basically stood at long/mid range and ripped into him. I got this to work JUST enough to do a match with Falcon where I still LOST but he was on his last life with mid damage.

MK seems to either tell you EXACTLY what he's going to do or if he DOESN'T do that his only option left is 1 other option. i.e. if he DOESN'T dash attack at a certain distance a dash grab is coming.

This stuff worked with SONIC I don't know quite how good Lucario is at punishing but I figure this could help a bit. It was still hard as hell but I went from getting 2 stocked to winning one, losing one and then losing with Falcon.

I never had that take on MK, Terios. I think you're right, Although I'm a little surprised he didn't start doing running up-smashes to counter your "jump and punish," this could work.

Heck, you might even calm down the "ban-MK!" crowd with this simple guide.

Also, I don't know if anything I do lately is going to be spammy or serious. I kinda wish we could have what this is and what the chatroom was, I really like the chatroom, but this is fixing the "stagnation' problem. Anyway, I finally updated my sig for Halloween.

 

[tedward2000]

nice, I'll make a halloween one, not sure if I will though.

If we ever get the old chat room back, I can say we probably wont. That chatroom was spam and little helpful. What It did though was make the majority of us friends and Family.
It connected the users of the Lucario Thread, and made memes at the same time.

However, because of the IRC, our number of posting has dropped.

And perhaps Terios is on to something. But I recall something like this popped up long while back.
-t2

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I never had that take on MK, Terios. I think you're right, Although I'm a little surprised he didn't start doing running up-smashes to counter your "jump and punish," this could work.

Actually he did but since I was Sonic my jump and punish was jump, drift back out of Usmash range and spinning at him. I could choose to release it when I needed to. Not everyone HAS that though so you would need a Lucario specific version.


And I'm not sure if this tanking method is all THAT reliable. I did it to one MK. Other MK's may have ways AROUND this stuff. This particular one didn't. I mean, he still did his fair share of damage as he still won one of the two matches once I tried this. But that was really close.

 

[Rh1thmz]

Lol...and that MK never even though to pressure your shield with "retreating" MT's instead of just blindly tornadoing you hoping that it would work? =\

And tilts weren't even mentioned...

MK could still shieldpoke/shieldpressure you with dtilt; there isn't too much you can do about it other than roll away with part of your shield gone. Uncompleted ftilts aren't too bad of a "mindgame" and can be led into other attacks such dtilts, and they have amazing range (especially if you do decide to complete the ftilts, since the third swipe does have longer range than the first two).

SH retreating fairs aren't as easy to punish as you indicate, but it's still not MK's best approach option on every occasion by far. The MK that you played might not have done retreating fairs, though, which would make the fair approach easier to punish.

So yeah, there's my two cents on that...if the MK knows what he is doing, he's not as easy to punish as you are depicting.

 

[Saki Zatoichi]

Lucario.

10ihateshortmessages.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Actually he did but since I was Sonic my jump and punish was jump, drift back out of Usmash range and spinning at him. I could choose to release it when I needed to. Not everyone HAS that though so you would need a Lucario specific version.


And I'm not sure if this tanking method is all THAT reliable. I did it to one MK. Other MK's may have ways AROUND this stuff. This particular one didn't. I mean, he still did his fair share of damage as he still won one of the two matches once I tried this. But that was really close.

Actually, I was commenting on how you might be right in saying MK telegraphs his moves in advance through the move set-ups.

So, I've had some trouble with Dair. Once in a while I get an annoying descending Dair that ruins my spacing. Any thoughts on what could cause Dair to descend between the two hits?

 

[Rh1thmz]

Fastfalling? =p

But yeah, in theory, couldn't you utilt MK in between the two hits? It is one of Luca's fastest attacks, after all (especially the "turn-around" utilt), and it should at least trade hits with MK's dair...especially if he fastfalls in between the dair and another jump.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Fastfalling? =p

But yeah, in theory, couldn't you utilt MK in between the two hits? It is one of Luca's fastest attacks, after all (especially the "turn-around" utilt), and it should at least trade hits with MK's dair...especially if he fastfalls in between the dair and another jump.

No, LUCARIO's Dair is the problem. Sometimes he falls a noticable (although small) distance between the two hits that screws up my spacing. Causes?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Lol...and that MK never even though to pressure your shield with "retreating" MT's instead of just blindly tornadoing you hoping that it would work? =\

I was SONIC though. I'm fast enough to punish retreated tornados. I assume Aura Sphere could work similarly.

And tilts weren't even mentioned...

MK could still shieldpoke/shieldpressure you with dtilt; there isn't too much you can do about it other than roll away with part of your shield gone. Uncompleted ftilts aren't too bad of a "mindgame" and can be led into other attacks such dtilts, and they have amazing range (especially if you do decide to complete the ftilts, since the third swipe does have longer range than the first two).

Tilts weren't an issue. I didn't get close enough for him TO tilt. My entire offensive game was punishment. Specifically I was looking for punishment opportunities since I heard Gimpy say once that "people aren't punishing MK's for things they could be punishing them for"

SH retreating fairs aren't as easy to punish as you indicate, but it's still not MK's best approach option on every occasion by far. The MK that you played might not have done retreating fairs, though, which would make the fair approach easier to punish.

He was retreating fairs. If I thought I couldn't punish I just...didn't go after him.
I was following the "Don't jump into the ****" ideal.

So yeah, there's my two cents on that...if the MK knows what he is doing, he's not as easy to punish as you are depicting.

He's not EASY to punish. Given that Sonic excels at punishment it could have just been that. But Lucario isn't without tools to punish certain things. I was sharing views on MK not on the Lucario/ MK matchup. I WISH I could help with that but I don't really play Lucario. I just like the people who do and I'm trying to contribute...somehow.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

No, LUCARIO's Dair is the problem. Sometimes he falls a noticable (although small) distance between the two hits that screws up my spacing. Causes?

Dairing out of hitstun will give you a descending Dair.

 

[Timbers]

Lucario can't punish anything unless MK completely whiffs a smash. MK's approach options, all of them, are unpunishable by Lucario. Everything MK has outranges Luc's grabrange, and jabs oos are too slow to punish like everything.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Lucario can't punish anything unless MK completely whiffs a smash. MK's approach options, all of them, are unpunishable by Lucario. Everything MK has outranges Luc's grabrange, and jabs oos are too slow to punish like everything.

Um, punishing out of shield isn't always a jab or grab. Besides, we don't have to follow that guide exactly, we KNOW it won't work exactly that way for Lucario.

I think the real point is that MK telegraphs his moves more than most people realize.

We are Lucario mainers. The myth is that we have one of the better MK matchups. If we can't figure out how to punish MK as well as Sonic users, then there is something seriously wrong with our matchup understanding.

Thanks for the Dair info, Morninglord.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

We are Lucario mainers. The myth is that we have one of the better MK matchups. If we can't figure out how to punish MK as well as Sonic users, then there is something seriously wrong with our matchup understanding.

Oh. Wow. Thanks for *******IZING MY KIND!

Anyway Sonic EXCELS at punishing. That's why I was looking for the opportunities. Lucario excels at beating his opponent senseless.

 

[Timbers]

Um, punishing out of shield isn't always a jab or grab. Besides, we don't have to follow that guide exactly, we KNOW it won't work exactly that way for Lucario.

Jabs, grabs, and occasionally utilt are the only moves in Luc's arsenal that have potential to be a guaranteed punisher. Anything else is too laggy, unless Ike just fsmashed your shield.

We are Lucario mainers. The myth is that we have one of the better MK matchups. If we can't figure out how to punish MK as well as Sonic users, then there is something seriously wrong with our matchup understanding.

As Terios said, Sonic "excels" at punishment, because he's pretty much lacking in every other area. Lucario doesn't punish MK, he brickwalls him the best he can. Luc might only get 7 or 8 hits on MK, but that's enough to take his stock on most occasions.

The only punishment that will be happening in this match is a Lucario player outsmarting a Metaknight player. Metaknight cannot be punished by Lucario, unless you just perfect shielded a smash, something that is near impossible to rely on.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

As Terios said, Sonic "excels" at punishment, because he's pretty much lacking in every other area.

To be fair he also pressures, mindgames, gimps and messes up spacings.