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Anyone know when it is frame safe to do just one pummel and then a throw of one's choice? This could really help us keep moves fresh. I don't want any estimates please.
Susa iirc has a pummel formula that was ignored but has the basis for this (I think), I would ask him.
PSA/OSA is misleading because it doesn't account for hitlag of the pummel, which makes it last a little longer, either way, our pummels are mega fast so...
I usually end up being able to do 1 + throw at low percents. btw a great way to abuse mashing is to wait until the player starts trying to mash, then fthrow. Messes with their DI half the time, I've gotten a few lol kills from this.
Jose DiazSoto (5:49:31 PM): Also, ES is 68 frames in total from ground to ground. I'm about to find out ground to air.
Jose DiazSoto (5:54:06 PM): 78 frames from ground to air. I think anyway, this isn't including the time Lucario spends in his fall special, unless you want to count that too, in which case, I think it's around 83 frames, but I forgot since ym step-father wouldn't stop bugging me while I was counting.
FlameWaveK (5:55:04 PM): hmmm
FlameWaveK (5:55:14 PM): aight
FlameWaveK (5:55:19 PM): so do the aurasphere cancel stuff now please
FlameWaveK (5:55:21 PM): thank you again
Jose DiazSoto (5:56:01 PM): Air to air is no different.
FlameWaveK (5:56:06 PM): also double check
Jose DiazSoto (5:56:09 PM): and it's 82 frames.
Jose DiazSoto (5:56:11 PM): Double check what?
FlameWaveK (5:56:14 PM): its start-up is 16 frames
FlameWaveK (5:56:15 PM): right?
FlameWaveK (5:56:19 PM): from air or ground
Jose DiazSoto (5:56:20 PM): Hell no.
Jose DiazSoto (5:56:29 PM): You can't control Lucario until frame 30, no matter what.
FlameWaveK (5:56:38 PM): alrightly alrightly
FlameWaveK (5:56:44 PM): so our frame data thread
FlameWaveK (5:56:45 PM): is WRONG
Jose DiazSoto (5:56:53 PM): Looks like it.
Jose DiazSoto (6:02:37 PM): 20 frames.
Jose DiazSoto (6:02:56 PM): That's how much time you have to control Lucario after ES's 29 frame start-up.
AS release from charge stance is either 6 or 8 frames iirc. (This is the only one I don't remember from my notebook)
Fastest possible shot from pressing BB is still 19 frames.
First possible hitbox from charging AS = 52
Charging AS hitboxes is ever 2 frames from first hitbox available.
(On terms of move decay, if I remember correctly, each hitbox does actually count as 1 hit, thus counting to the decay of AS, or unstaling your moveset. I have to retest it, but that is what I got from testing it the first time)
In short, most of the data is pretty accurate for what he have already. I tested all of this with debug.
Jose DiazSoto (6:11:42 PM): Why the Hell do you want to know anything concerning double-team? >_>
Jose DiazSoto (6:12:24 PM): Oh BTW since I just saw it now:
Jose DiazSoto (6:12:31 PM): "Aurasphere shot from aurasphere stance"
FlameWaveK (6:12:33 PM): because
FlameWaveK (6:12:38 PM): my double team usage
FlameWaveK (6:12:39 PM): is amazing
FlameWaveK (6:12:40 PM): lol
FlameWaveK (6:12:51 PM): i heard from kita its frame 5
Jose DiazSoto (6:12:53 PM): It's no different if you fire it from the charging stance or if you fire it fully charged, it'll still become active on frame 6.
FlameWaveK (2:38:17 AM): jab 1 hitbox is frame 6 and jab iasa is frame 10 according to our current data
Jose DiazSoto (2:38:18 AM): I suppose. It'll give me a reason to open up Brawl and get some of Sonic's frame data.
FlameWaveK (2:41:57 AM): he basically says
FlameWaveK (2:42:07 AM): the only thing I can do from jab 1's iasa from frame 10
FlameWaveK (2:42:10 AM): is jab 2
FlameWaveK (2:42:17 AM): and I can't do other things until frame 20
FlameWaveK (2:42:20 AM): regardless of buffering
Jose DiazSoto (2:44:29 AM): I wonder...
Jose DiazSoto (2:49:39 AM): Yeah, he's right.
Jose DiazSoto (2:49:54 AM): It's not until frame 21 that you can do anything else. Assumnig you don't go into Jab 2 of course.
Jose DiazSoto (2:50:17 AM): Let me see.
FlameWaveK (2:50:19 AM): sadfaec
FlameWaveK (2:38:17 AM): jab 1 hitbox is frame 6 and jab iasa is frame 10 according to our current data
Jose DiazSoto (2:38:18 AM): I suppose. It'll give me a reason to open up Brawl and get some of Sonic's frame data.
FlameWaveK (2:41:57 AM): he basically says
FlameWaveK (2:42:07 AM): the only thing I can do from jab 1's iasa from frame 10
FlameWaveK (2:42:10 AM): is jab 2
FlameWaveK (2:42:17 AM): and I can't do other things until frame 20
FlameWaveK (2:42:20 AM): regardless of buffering
Jose DiazSoto (2:44:29 AM): I wonder...
Jose DiazSoto (2:49:39 AM): Yeah, he's right.
Jose DiazSoto (2:49:54 AM): It's not until frame 21 that you can do anything else. Assumnig you don't go into Jab 2 of course.
Jose DiazSoto (2:50:17 AM): Let me see.
FlameWaveK (2:50:19 AM): sadfaec
Isn't that obvious? I thought it was well known o_o. You hav to keep in mind that thats only on our part however. You are not taking into consideration the hitstun + landing lag after jab 1 if they don't DI the jab up to not land on the floor. The jab is all a tech read, but despite that being a read, it is a very damn good one.
@Kadaj: None to this date. I tried finding it out, but doing aerials is a bit more complicated then what I gave it credit for originally.
The problem is RJ I was looking into jab option selects at the time [where something is buffered when you imput something while holding A and if you're holding A it hits them it goes into jab 2 but if it doesn't you do whatever you buffered]
but like I was hoping we'd have that 10+ frame advantage on whiffing someone's spotdodge but its more like less then 10 now that I know we can only act on frame 20 with anything not jab 2
sadfaec
also our uptilt being frame 5 is a MAKES ME SO UPSET.
it means turnaround uptilt won't interupt snake uptilt.
It's the only counter that doesn't have a stun jacket, so if you hit it w/ something that isn't laggy you can shield before it comes out. He's just really good at reads ('cuz Trela's Trela)
I think since it's non-chargeable, the number is still accurate. If so, it's starts on Frame 7 (the "trigger" hitbox), and w/ jump oos, you cancel shield-drop lag which gives you a little more power w/ it, although I haven't seen an opponent that likes to attack a lot after they've hit your shield once, they usually just run/make a fakeout to get you to try and punish. Still, it's good to keep in mind as an OoS (actually, reminds me of M2's JC DownB OoS lol).
Arigato for the help rPSI ^.^ just saying in case no one does.
also may I have the frame map too? [the technical stuff that everyone else will probably not care about or understand really :>c you should know what I'm talking about <3]
Didn't feel like Doubling-posting in the social, and since Flamey said to do this, here I am.
FlameWaveK 10:52 pm
ircc
the most important one
was figuring out if lucario
could ledgehop -> Fair/Uair
whats it called
the thing where you get you seco-
ISJR
its if lucario can ledgehop -> Fair/Uair and viably ISJR
I'd like to see the spacing/timing for it
Yep, it's perfectly doable.
But let me go ahead and go the extra mile, huh?
With Battlefield (or any flat ledge/stage for that matter), just casually dropping, then immediately DJing afterwards, I would have to delay the Forward Air for sixteen frames. If you do it too soon, Forward air finishes and the timing window goes away. Frame 17 after you DJ from the ledge, do a forward air and you should be able to do it nice and easy. Any later and the attack doesn't finish soon enough. Yes you read that right, in that regard you only have one frame to get this right.
On the other hand though, that was from just immediately double-jumping. If you wait a little bit before you double-jump, then the timing is a bit different. In what way though is beyond me just because it isn't a constant how far you drop down after you let go of the ledge. A.K.A. It isn't like basic math which is as simple as "If I do nothing for ten frames after dropping down, then double jump, I should Forward after after six frames."
Before I explain how to remedy/accomodate for that, let me go over Uair first.
Double-jumping immediately after you drop from the ledge, delay the Uair for 14 frames. Frame 15, go ahead and do it. Do it too soon or late, blah blah blah I already explained what happens with these conditions with Fair, and later too.
I will at least tell you this since it might help you to know: Lucario can linger in the air for 23 frames after letting go of the ledge before he will have to double jump if he wants to land on the stage. If you want any longer, and if there's an opponent occupying the ledge in this time, all I can tell you is "have a nice fall~! " So there you have your window of opportunity more or less.
Different still is when instead of falling off casually you decide to fastfall. To give an example, after you let go of the ledge and input a fastfall, it takes 2 frames for the fastfall to kick in. Fastfall for three frames before you double jump (you should jump on frame 6 including the first two frames from dropping off the ledge). After that, delay the Fair for fourteen frames. On frame 15 of your double jump, you should Forward air if you want to be able to SJR. You know the drill if it's any sooner or later.
One more thing, and this is important since this is a more real-world application than most of what I've told you so far: Hitting somebody on the way up will not alter the timing on this. Hitting open air or somebody; person or shield, still gives you the same windows of opportunity at their moments.
For the sake of consistency, Lucario can linger in the air after fasfalling from the ledge for the ledge for 11 frames, including the two frames it takes for the fastfall to kick in. Double-jump any later and you will not be able to land on the stage.
I'll leave it up to you to figure out the other variables on your own, like fastfalling during your forward air. It gets way too specific after that and I don't have the passion for this character like you do, or as I do with Sonic.
Sorry if this is kind of out of order. For big-boy stuff I like, I should do advanced posting instead of quick replies. I couldn't see even 1/8th of what I typed up, so sorry about that.
If you need me to explain/cover anything else, let me know. You know where to find me.
Sure it will. You just need to make sure that you do it on that exact timing, otherwise you'll just buffer a DJ after you land, which is obviously super laggy.
Also where I don't matters as much as when. If you want to try this on slanted levels/slopes or whatever, that's all a matter of knowing your own character's frame data and stats.
Did I, or anybody else for that matter, even cover time in frames about that stuff? I know for a fact that Sonic takes like 47 frames to complete a short hop because of the way he is. Lucario, being tall and floaty may be different but that should be your guideline if you're serious about this; not to mention that Lucario's aerials have a different duration and blah blah blah.
Also, video demonstration? ;~;
I suppose I can at least record something very briefly in the next couple of days about what I went over, but please please please don't expect me to show you every single different variable/scenario, that's just too much for me to want to do.
