The Lucario Frame Data Project

[IceDX]

I heard somewere that the frame data here wasnt accurate???

is that true?

 

[phi1ny3]

The biggest problems are specials (which are articles, and thus some of the numbers like when you can fire AS earliest aren't in PSA), and some of shieldstun. It's pretty spot-on otherwise

 

[IceDX]

The biggest problems are specials (which are articles, and thus some of the numbers like when you can fire AS earliest aren't in PSA), and some of shieldstun. It's pretty spot-on otherwise

oh ok, i see thanks i wasnt expecting the AS stuff to be perfect anyway...

 

[phi1ny3]

I really need to follow through with what I promised for this, I mean, I have the codes...

but I either don't get good time for it

or I think "why should I do frame data when I could be practicing?"
gah, gotta just do it.

 

[IceDX]

I really need to follow through with what I promised for this, I mean, I have the codes...

but I either don't get good time for it

or I think "why should I do frame data when I could be practicing?"
gah, gotta just do it.

do it

you would be making us all a big favor

 

[phi1ny3]

I mean, I understand that, but imo applying frame data is pretty situational, especially with lucario. Still, it needs to be done, it's gotten way behind lol.

 

[Steam]

is hitstun constant for both hitboxes of lucario's DA? I want to know what our tipper DA combos into. :0

 

[phi1ny3]

Nooooo, I typed up more of the data additions and can't find them.

I bet they're in my old smashlab google docs, I'll check there sometime.

 

[phi1ny3]

Finished most of the ledge data, confirmed/debunked a little on specials (Kinzer was right, ES comes out on frame 30 and all that, and AS is actually arguably more abusable when you're in a charge stance, you get a frame 8 shot while charging, whereas pulling the AS out to fire it doesn't make anything until frame 20 . So remember to use that charge stance as a good tool :D

 

[Browny]

Find shield disadvantage at 100+ on ftilt imo

watchin D's vids vs a fox I couldnt help but think he should have been simply spacing ftilt vs fox at high % because thats what I do. You cant PS the second hit and fox has to dash to usmash first.

Lol some crude testing myself, I couldnt even land a ftilt oos (6 frames) vs lucarios spaced ftilt at SIXTY %.

---

Also Im sure i've said it before, this info needs the shieldstun data at 90 and 170%. I suspect you will find a linear trend, then you can simply interpolate the shieldstun of any attack at any % or stock combination...

 

[D. Disciple]

Ugh that match, I was trying to get the grab too many times instead of just actually fighting -_- I could've done a lot better, hopefully next time I'll meet him in bracket and the results can be different.

 

[phi1ny3]

Find shield disadvantage at 100+ on ftilt imo

watchin D's vids vs a fox I couldnt help but think he should have been simply spacing ftilt vs fox at high % because thats what I do. You cant PS the second hit and fox has to dash to usmash first.

Lol some crude testing myself, I couldnt even land a ftilt oos (6 frames) vs lucarios spaced ftilt at SIXTY %.

---

Also Im sure i've said it before, this info needs the shieldstun data at 90 and 170%. I suspect you will find a linear trend, then you can simply interpolate the shieldstun of any attack at any % or stock combination...

This is actually a good idea, I'll check this stuff out when I get to it, but yeah, I'm back in business with this stuff :D

 

[phi1ny3]

oh hai d00ds, so I didn't do ftilt testing yet, but today I found something really, really cool.

ASC, the attack has like a crazy amount of advantage, I tested it w/ the standard procedure, and the advantage comes out as like, over +12 (not on block, of course), I'm not kidding. The biggest things seem to bring this into play, are the fact that while the charge takes forever to come out, you can cancel the attack on frame 1 w/ shield (you'd need some pretty inhuman reflexes to do it on the earliest attack rofl, but the advantage still stands the same), and the fact that if you do it really early, most opponents don't have enough time to jump or AD from the raw part of the hitstun itself, and you couple that with the bit of landing lag that they get coming down, and voila, you've got yourself a trap! Now there's just one problem with this, DI. I would need to get more specific with this, but without DI (which if you use it like Junebug did against DEHF that one time), you get a free dair/utilt/grab. The other problem is that it takes a lot more time to turn around oos than standing, so it's not like you can get any tilt/aerial you want, especially since shield drop takes lots more time.

It's sad that none of lucario's main smashes/kill moves come out faster (especially usmash, zomg usmash would jump up like x3 spots on my move tier list for Lucario if it came out faster, JC usmash after ASC would be so godly), this could really bring some bacon for Lucario's endgame, but hey, dair is still pretty good.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I told you guys!

Anyways, don't forget landing lag which adds at least 5 frames before someone can shield.

Also, Phil, if someone is above you that you catch in ASC and you Shield cancel USmash... unless they have something that can hit on frame one... (Which is risky for Marf because he may just UP B right over you lol.) You CAN hit them with USmash. Thanks to air dodges being invincible on frame 4 (frame 3 if you're MK).

Thereby giving you like a 2-3 frame window to do it.

 

[culexus・wau]

I knew asc -> upsmash was somewhat legit

it would be stupid if that many people got hit by it wtf

 

[D. Disciple]

What's faster, shield, spotdodge or roll?

 

[Kinzer]

For/in what case?

Shield's always come on frame 1 from neutral position (Unless you're Yoshi). Spotdodges and rolls can vary, but for Lucario specifically...

... I don't know. ;~;

 

[phi1ny3]

@Myth: usmash comes out slower than I anticipated, it's literally about as slow/a little slower than dsmash (although thankfully it's quick quick from release after charge). Also, some characters can jump out. And that's not to mention that the hitbox is somewhat specific, I'll be sure to test that first before knocking it though. Man, I can't even imagine though how much of a frame advantage doing ASC to catch RCO lag would be v. some characters (that'd be like a +40 frame advantage rofl).

@D: technically shield is faster, and then jumping is the fastest option for indicating advantage in the air (like for uthrow).

 

[D. Disciple]

I need to know it for when I want to cancel my 2nd jab.

Screw it I'm just gonna test it later on today.

 

[phi1ny3]

Think about it, shield always comes out on frame 1, roll and spotdodge need to come out at least a frame later since shield + direction requires an input.

 

[D. Disciple]

yeah, but I want some results, from fastest to slowest.

 

[culexus・wau]

What's faster, shield, spotdodge or roll?

shield comes out f1

spotdodge invuln comes out f2

roll invlun comes out f4

 

[phi1ny3]

^What he said, it's also on the OP

 

[Sync.]

shield comes out f1

spotdodge invuln comes out f2

roll invlun comes out f4

Thanks bro.

=Trela=

 

[iRJi]

Here is a question. The IASA frames on jab one, does that only apply when going into jab 2, or is it really IASA on frame 10 for any move (Ex. Shielding)

 

[culexus・wau]

for going into jab 2

I talked to kinzer about this a long time ago and he crushed my dreams of lucario jab buffering shenanigans because of it

I forget how long the frames for it for anything not jab 2 though

KINZER KINZER TASUKETTE KINZER

 

[iRJi]

Thats still not that bad. It's 4 frames longer in lag then Falcos. Completing jab 1 is 20 frames total. Falcos is 16.

Which leads to another point of jab 2 as well. Jab 2 is cancelable, but the data might be inaccurate. In fact, most of the frame data we have kinda sucks lol. We need to do it over.

 

[phi1ny3]

Lol it's not that bad, it's mainly smashes/specials that have the biggest issues (which I've changed since then, btw usmash is as slow as I mostly thought it was, but it's quick from releasing after charge)

misc. data, jab, tilts I'm pretty confident in being accurate to some degree. I'd have to double check on the jab IASA, but I'm sure it matches what I've recorded. Oh and some of the disadvantage imo needs to be reviewed, I mostly copied down some of the data others have posted and have slowly tested some of them since then.

btw RJ, imo using upB is not the best solution, because some moves that send into that special tumble make it so only jump/AD take 10 frames earlier than other responses.

 

[iRJi]

Confused about the UpB thing. Explain more.
Also confused about the Min charge delay for Usmash. IT states its +13 but the move comes out on frame 12 o_o.

 

[phi1ny3]

haha yeah, usmash is outdated, tbh the only number I got down from my google doc is that the total earliest uncharged usmash comes out on frame 19 (have to recrunch the data for release time, but it's pretty obvious that it's one of those smashes that releases fairly fast after charge, but takes forever to come out when from a neutral stance ala c-sticking the smash).

upB takes longer to get out of some tumbles (like there's regular tumble and special tumble depending on the move used, most throws are a good example of inducing that kind of tumble) , it was a good method to use for most of the data, but I think I'd need to retest things like uthrow (I need to retest them anyways b/c it would be nice to know the advantage being affected by aura, I'll just get a formula going I suppose or something )

On second thought, maybe it is a better idea to start from scratch. I just wish people realized most of this isn't inaccurate, it's just that there was nothing to determine articles and charging accurately outside of frame advance lol, so that's why those numbers ended up wonky. It just got a little berating when people asking for simple dodge data and I'm like "Oh come on, it's not that inaccurate" lol, Even Kinzer's testing confirmed that while the original data was iffy on AS and ES and the like, things like jab, tilts, grabs, aerials, etc. were pretty spot on.

 

[culexus・wau]

Someones needs to find a fast safe way to run off the stage and then snap cancel

The easiest way I found is roll -> hit diagonally away from the stage -> smash Up+B but even then it doesn't work sometimes =>

other one is even harder and even carries a risk of SDing yourself lol

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Are you sure its 19 frames to start Up Smash? It always felt quicker than that.

 

[iRJi]

I agree that everything needs to be retested. I am always on AIM, what ever you want to teach me I can help with. I am free this whole summer for the most part, which also leads to me playing more then I use to. My region should be scared a bit lol. I almost hit the rankings twice without playing the game for this whole semester, and I have won every doubles event but 2 this season. Imagine when I start playing daily? o_o

Regardless, im here to help correct everything if needed, you just got to let me know whats going down. Best way to do so is AIM or PM lol.

 

[phi1ny3]

@RJ: Yeah, that'd be a looooot of help, I'd really appreciate it. I get pockets here and there, but I'm usually pretty busy and whatever time I get I prefer practicing, but I really oughta just get through it rather than letting it drag on lol.

 

[Steam]

can someone test our frame advantage on Dash attack tipper? I want to know if we get guranteed turnaround grab off of it

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Might I request someone obtains the hitstun for FAir at 0%, 75%, or 170%?

I would like to know if we hit with the very end of it if we could potentially footstool someone.

That'd make the Wolf MU among others a bit easier.

 

[culexus・wau]

ircc it'll rarely combo

fair delay fair/footstool is a great mix-up though

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, it's a cool mixup, especially for offstage shenanigans

 

[D. Disciple]

I got vids of me somewhere doing it to Dark Falco in different matches in our tournament set.

 

[Steam]

wait... if fair/footstool isn't a combo then that means fair doesn't combo into anything right? :/