The Lucario Frame Data Project

[phi1ny3]

Okay, I need to talk to Kinzer, Kita and you RJ, about the differences in data. Some are expected, but some have a slight twist that I think might hint at a better advantage for a move.

 

[Kitamerby]

Okay, I need to talk to Kinzer, Kita and you RJ, about the differences in data. Some are expected, but some have a slight twist that I think might hint at a better advantage for a move.

?
tenquestionmarks

 

[Dragshot]

Good stuff mayne. But I'm really more curious about how big his aura is. It feels really huge sometimes. And I know there's a set range because of havok physics and et cetera, no phantom hits and such. Hope somebody's inspired to post that...but it'll likely help people beat Luc, so nix that.

 

[culexus・wau]

Might wanna add that Jump is frame 6

 

[phi1ny3]

Oh yeah, I should.

 

[iRJi]

Jumping is 5 frames, actually.

 

[phi1ny3]

iirc you have to add +1 to nearly everything, even the jump number in PSA. Technically, it is so, but the time it takes for the game to read your "input" is one frame, so everything's really one frame extra.

 

[culexus・wau]

Alright guys, I went into BrawlBox and got how long each animation took. Here is my findings:

captain - 6
dedede - 5
diddy - 5
donkey - 7
falco - 5
fox - 5
gamewatch - 6
ganon - 6
ike - 8
kirby - 5
koopa - 9
link - 8
lucario - 6
lucas - 6
luigi - 6
mario - 6
marth - 6
metaknight - 5
ness - 6
peach - 6
pikachu - 5
pikmin - 6
pit - 6
pokefushigisou - 6
pokelizardon - 8
pokezenigame - 5
popo - 5
purin - 6
robot - 6
samus - 5
sheik - 5
snake - 10
sonic - 8
szerosuit - 5
toonlink - 8
wario - 7
wolf - 7
yoshi - 7
zelda - 7

Remember this is the length of the animation, so when you are calculating the first actionable frame, you have to add one.

from the COMPLETE FRAME DATA thread on tactical

________________

 

[HyperEnergy]

iirc you have to add +1 to nearly everything, even the jump number in PSA. Technically, it is so, but the time it takes for the game to read your "input" is one frame, so everything's really one frame extra.

I think it'd be easier to not add 1 to the jump data and leave a message at the top stating that you need to add 1 extra frame to it (and everything else that requires it).

At the very least, if you're going to add 1 to the jump data then you should also be consistent and do the same to everything else (as long as it's applicable of course).

Also, is there any explanation on how one goes about reading all this frame data?

 

[culexus・wau]

I think under jump it should say start-up 6 and airborne on frame 7 but thats just me :>

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Just wondering what else is still in progress for this? (If we had that listed somewhere we could get possible help from random passerbys.)

Also just wondering has the full charge reverse Aura Sphere been tested?

 

[Kitamerby]

Just wondering what else is still in progress for this? (If we had that listed somewhere we could get possible help from random passerbys.)

Also just wondering has the full charge reverse Aura Sphere been tested?

It's the exact same speed as a regular full charge aura sphere. There is absolutely no frame difference when reversing a special outside of Falcon/Warlock Punch.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Has anyone tested the hitstun of the charging Aura Sphere? We could potentially charge cancel it into a bunch of nasty stuff if there were enough hitstun frames.

 

[Kitamerby]

There probably isn't. You'd need 13 frames just for nair, and I doubt there's that much.

Maybe I'll try it later tonight if I'm still up and get bored of practicing Melee.

You can still try it and catch them off guard.

 

[phi1ny3]

There's also dair, utilt and turnaround grab I guess for options.

Any aerial unfortunately must account for jump frames, and anything else must account for shield drop frames

 

[Zucco]

charge AS on idiots. Guaranteed combo into anything.

 

[phi1ny3]

Nana's an idiot, look how effective it was:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CglXhcfw00g

 

[phi1ny3]

I'm probably going to update this soon, Finally got a better SD card and I have the codes already, so I can put them in and do some number crunching.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Hey Phil, would it be possible for you to test AS's partial charges and what frames they happen?

It'd be really useful to have for priority's sake. Especially when we beat MK's nado with 10% Spheres, but we have to second guess how much partial charges do (which will be figured out).

Thanks bro.

 

[Kitamerby]

Hey Phil, would it be possible for you to test AS's partial charges and what frames they happen?

It'd be really useful to have for priority's sake. Especially when we beat MK's nado with 10% Spheres, but we have to second guess how much partial charges do (which will be figured out).

Thanks bro.

You can look this up in BrawlBox, or at least you can check the frames it increases size in Brawlbox. I remember looking at that awhile back...

Scaling increases every 2 frames iirc, and don't hold me to this, but if I remember right the charge starts on frame 17, and it takes 56 frames after that to achieve full charge. I should check this again later.

 

[iRJi]

You need to clean up the OP. all the quotes are annoying to look at honestly lol. Just do a normal type in on Dis/advantage = ___, and just write in that everything was tested with such and such @ the top of the thread. Less clutter, more visibility.

 

[iDeo]

Can some1 explain the (Dis)advantage part of the frame data cause i'm confused on what it means.

Does that mean the vulnerability at which Lucario can be atked within those -7 frames or somethin?

 

[phi1ny3]

It means how many frames the opponent can react in, but doesn't include shieldstun, for the case that a person perfect shields the given attack.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Phil would you mind updating the OP with correct roll data?

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6913102&postcount=1

4-19 / 27 Lucario (for both rolls)

We get a greater frame advantage against rolling behind a UTilting Snake than I thought...

Since that UTilt is 38 frames and if we buffer a grab or Jab we have like a 5 frame window to do it, much better than a 1 frame window like I thought earlier. This is actually humanely possible.

Argh, now I gotta go back and compare other data for other characters.

 

[phi1ny3]

guys...

uthrow is **** at low percents.

I don't know if +9 means anything to you, but depending on the character (basically how low they stay near you), if you work with buffering you get a ton of options. (buffered Instant Dash attack come out on frame 8, buffered boost pivot grab comes out on frame 11).

If they double jump, that's fine, you just got a frame trap opportunity w/ AS/ a chance to retaliate with uair/fair -> dair/nair.

here's my post/finding on LBR:

In other news, Uthrow is amaaaazingly good. More lucarios need to try this move out and see if they like it. With Lucario's massive ground punishments against a whiff, it really forces opponents to pick from options lucario can more easily follow up on, or put Lucario in a good position.

edit: guys? Can you say "uthrow **** time"?

For stutter-step fsmash, you can interrupt with fsmash during any of the first 6 frames of your dash.

0 - Standing
1 - Dash
2 - ^
3 - ^
4 - ^
5 - ^
6 - Fsmash <--- The latest you can fsmash.

If you were to try to Fsmash on the 7th frame, you would dash attack.



The earliest you can dash attack from a standing position is during the 2nd frame of your dash.

0 - Standing
1 - Dash
2 - Dash attack

If you were to buffer a dash attack out of something, then the dash attack would come out on the 1st frame instead.



Instant boost pivot grabs

0 - Standing
1 - Dash
2 - Dash attack
3 - Back + Grab (Pivot grab)

Again, if you use buffering, you can make the boost pivot grab come out on the 1st frame instead of the 3rd.

so buffered boost pivot grab from uthrow comes out on like frame 11, DA1 out of frame 8 (DA2 on frame 11), strutterstep fsmash is slow but that strutterstep is fast enough to get you out of the way of the obvious attack they might try to throw at you coming down.

Now think about it this way, uthrow is +9 in advantage, but that's only when taking into account their ability to regain control. You also have to account for STARTUP for aerials and air dodge. ****, am I right?

tl;dr in some MUs at low percents, YOU WILL PROBABLY want to think of using this throw over Dthrow/Bthrow, since depending on how close they are to you when they get thrown you are GUARANTEED more damage/followup potential.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think we need to figure out who is possible to follow up, shame aura and % increase in knock back make this pretty hard finding when it's not ok to follow up.

 

[phi1ny3]

All I know is that anyone that gets knocked up higher than Marth can't get utilted.

That and pretty much most FFers/Big characters get lol'd by the stuff I mentioned, minus ROB (he floats way too high, but it's still a decent throw on him considering he gets up in the air and uthrow followups are harder to escape than dthrow b/c of DI not affecting it as much).

 

[culexus・wau]

Hey phil.

From the charging animation of aurasphere.

how fast is tossing the sphere?

juuuuuuuust wanna know

I think the aurasphere section should be redone too ><

tis confusing.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah I plan to go over this in frame advance, seeing as how OSA/PSA is "unfriendly" towards specials especially chargeable ones

 

[phi1ny3]

double post:

I'm thinking that the disadvantages/stun of moves is disorganized (not necessarily frame startup and such, just stuff involving shield and the like), and I'm wondering if for now I should make an unstickied thread and link the stuff I've collected to here until I get it retested/confirmed. Anyone disagree?

 

[Kitamerby]

Iirc it's a 5 frame release, but don't quote me on that.

 

[phi1ny3]

5 frame release on AS?

also, what should I do? Should I compile an advantage thread for ease until I can work out a better format later?

 

[iRJi]

double post:

I'm thinking that the disadvantages/stun of moves is disorganized (not necessarily frame startup and such, just stuff involving shield and the like), and I'm wondering if for now I should make an unstickied thread and link the stuff I've collected to here until I get it retested/confirmed. Anyone disagree?

You could just organize it here honestly. Instead of quoting my thread, just debunk the quotes and actually list the disadvantage data normally in the OP. After all of that is sorted out, then you can do a bottom section for anything extra.

 

[phi1ny3]

Most of them are the same lol

I haven't tested dtilt yet though, which tbh is the most controversial lol

 

[Yikarur]

subscribed because it's a frame data thread =D

 

[Yikarur]

oh and I don't like the OP at all, it's so confusing, imo it should be a bit reorganized :/
the Quotes should be collapsed
"Hitbox out" sounds stupid. Does it mean the hitbox ends there?
"completes on frame" could be compakter with a simple "Ends: X"

the frame data is a bit lot dissuasive.

E: a dammit, I posted before lol

 

[Browny]

Yeah lol why did you quote RJ's red disclaimer 9 times >_<

 

[phi1ny3]

oh and I don't like the OP at all, it's so confusing, imo it should be a bit reorganized :/
the Quotes should be collapsed
"Hitbox out" sounds stupid. Does it mean the hitbox ends there?
"completes on frame" could be compakter with a simple "Ends: X"

the frame data is a bit lot dissuasive.

E: a dammit, I posted before lol

Yeah this needs a do-over imo, I'm thinking of doing it within this week.

I say "hitbox out" because I don't want to use something like "animation begins" or "begins" because there is a discernible difference between the two, and technically there are moves that start earlier, but the hitboxes themselves aren't out until later, which can be misleading to someone who looks at these from a more practical standpoint. A good example of this is Lucario fair, which although starts at frame 5, the hitbox doesn't "appear" until frame 7 (and yet I hear people who are begginers at understanding OSA/PSA always tell me "Lucario's moves aren't slow, see this first timer?" When in reality, obviously it doesn't actually come out until you see the bones identified).

Needless to say this'll be getting an update b/c I feel the advantages are also pretty badly formatted.

edit: misunderstood what you said. I do agree that I should probably reword some things

 

[phi1ny3]

Updated, cleaned up, fixed some bad numbers, changed some "bad terminology", and advantages are now included on most (confirmed).

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Hey Phil or anyone else are you still working on this?

If so may I put in a request to find out the hitstun of FAir at 0% (3), 39% (4), 75% (5), 123% (6), and 170% (7) at same stock? Perhaps NAir, DAir (1st hit), and BAir too, but I am really curious about FAir because of the possibilities we have if we actually did have a lot of frame advantages.

Here is my chart of %s again for convenience of other moves http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/1382/auramythtrainerinfinity.png